165 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

GodWood wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Soo paragons would be forgiving if one of Shepard's team killed the rest of the squad?

Ask yourself whether or not Shepard's Squad, at their peak, could be taken by a joint operation between 3 merc groups in the same manner as Garrus' squad....

Yeah, I didn't think so either.

How is that even relevent?
My point is would you forgive one of Shepard's squad if they killed the rest of the team?

They killed meaning...they personally caused the death of the squad, or that actions on their part, done only under coercion or by accident, caused the squad's death?

And yes, this is a significant distinction.

[Nightwriter]

GodWood wrote...

Soo paragons would be forgiving if one of Shepard's team killed the rest of the squad?

Meh. Circumstance is everything. It honestly depends.

But I should point out that if such a thing happened to me, I would be grieving, and when I am grieving I rarely know what is best for myself.

[GuardianAngel470]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Yes, it is a betrayal, but it isn't the one Garrus told us it was.

Indeed, and in fact I actually do sympathize with Sidonis slightly more knowing that he was acting out of survival instinct and not pure greed.

But I also value loyalty to your friends and comrades, and the fact that Sidonis also turns towards the Citadel's criminal underground to escape any retribution also rankles me.

Finally, as I pointed out on the first page, he wants to die. That's why I usually drag it out to that point. It's as much a mercy for him as it is for Garrus.

"No more sleepless nights."
"For either of us."
*pow*

I haven't heard that dialog, but I personally value Garrus' mental health over Sidonis'. It may be a mercy killing for Sidonis, but it will leave Garrus in a state of mental turmoil. He may say no more sleepless nights, but that won't be the truth, especially if you had Sidonis tell him why he did it.

In the end, killing Sidonis outright or letting him live are almost equally beneficial and equally detrimental. Killing him without listening to him would allow garrus to rationalize his decision with his preconceived notion of a major, malicious betrayal. Letting him live would still leave him with a sense of unfinished business and guilt, but he could rationalize it with the concept that he took the high road, and the high road isn't supposed to be easy.

[GodWood]

RiouHotaru wrote...

GodWood wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Soo paragons would be forgiving if one of Shepard's team killed the rest of the squad?

Ask yourself whether or not Shepard's Squad, at their peak, could be taken by a joint operation between 3 merc groups in the same manner as Garrus' squad....

Yeah, I didn't think so either.

How is that even relevent?
My point is would you forgive one of Shepard's squad if they killed the rest of the team?

They killed meaning...they personally caused the death of the squad, or that actions on their part, done only under coercion or by accident, caused the squad's death?

And yes, this is a significant distinction.

They were being threatened by Collectors (or some similar enemy) and thus gave up the rest of the squad to save their own skin.

(Thats reletively interchangable with what Sidonis done)

[RiouHotaru]

GodWood wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

GodWood wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Soo paragons would be forgiving if one of Shepard's team killed the rest of the squad?

Ask yourself whether or not Shepard's Squad, at their peak, could be taken by a joint operation between 3 merc groups in the same manner as Garrus' squad....

Yeah, I didn't think so either.

How is that even relevent?
My point is would you forgive one of Shepard's squad if they killed the rest of the team?

They killed meaning...they personally caused the death of the squad, or that actions on their part, done only under coercion or by accident, caused the squad's death?

And yes, this is a significant distinction.

They were being threatened by Collectors (or some similar enemy) and thus gave up the rest of the squad to save their own skin.

(Thats reletively interchangable with what Sidonis done)

Assuming their only options were "Betray or die" and they couldn't do anything within reason to stop it, I'd forgive them.

[GodWood]

Its Jacob.

He sacrificed your squad.

and your LI.

still forgive?

[TheBlackBaron]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

In the end, killing Sidonis outright or letting him live are almost equally beneficial and equally detrimental. Killing him without listening to him would allow garrus to rationalize his decision with his preconceived notion of a major, malicious betrayal. Letting him live would still leave him with a sense of unfinished business and guilt, but he could rationalize it with the concept that he took the high road, and the high road isn't supposed to be easy.

See, by the same token, I could see Garrus rationalizing it after learning of Sidonis' motivations as him getting his sense of closure - no more unfinished business for himself or his squad - and rationalizing the guilt away via the fact that it was clear both he and Sidonis wanted him dead.

Neither of us can really say we're right, since unless you're playing FemShep you only get one more conversation with him and that mainly involves reach and flexibility, and the bonus romance conversations she gets mainly involve unitentional euphemisms regarding heat sink ejection.

[RiouHotaru]

GodWood wrote...

Its Jacob.
He sacrificed your squad.
and your LI.
still forgive?

Again, assuming his only choices in the matter were "betray your squad or suffer a horrid death", then yes, forgiven.  I mean really, are you trying to come up with a combination under the hope I'll say "YURUSENAI!" (That's "unforgiveable" in japanese)

The only people who have no excuse are Grunt and Zaeed for obvious reasons.  But that's because they're likely the most hardcore of the whole damn squad.  Or Samara, since her code dictates she wouldn't.  For them to betray would be so OOC it's a non-issue.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

ROFL x 2.

"What did you want Garrus's loyalty for, Nightwriter?"

I mean why would I want to unlock the ONLY other dialogue content I get with Garrus besides CALIBRATIONS CALIBRATIONS CALIBRATIONS CALIBRATIONS.

I was hoping you'd approach this question from a roleplaying perspective.

Frankly, there is no roleplaying answer.

What you are essentially saying is that because I must fight through mercs to complete this mission, I absolutely must choose the renegade outcome. And I suspect you will call this logic.

So here is an example of when roleplaying - in the strict sense you mean it - is quite unreasonable.

[RiouHotaru]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Neither of us can really say we're right, since unless you're playing FemShep you only get one more conversation with him and that mainly involves reach and flexibility, and the bonus romance conversations she gets mainly involve unitentional euphemisms regarding heat sink ejection.

With the implication that Garrus is also likely a stud in the sack as well, but I digress... 

[Manic Sheep]

*sits in corner with popcorn watching*

[TheBlackBaron]

RiouHotaru wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Neither of us can really say we're right, since unless you're playing FemShep you only get one more conversation with him and that mainly involves reach and flexibility, and the bonus romance conversations she gets mainly involve unitentional euphemisms regarding heat sink ejection.

With the implication that Garrus is also likely a stud in the sack as well, but I digress... 

Yes, well...my canon Shepard isn't going to discover that first hand. I've got to figure out how I'm going to keep Ash and Tali from killing eachother.

My FemShep Adept, on the other hand... :innocent:

[Collider]

I doubt Jacob would sacrifice the squad, lol.

[RiouHotaru]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Neither of us can really say we're right, since unless you're playing FemShep you only get one more conversation with him and that mainly involves reach and flexibility, and the bonus romance conversations she gets mainly involve unitentional euphemisms regarding heat sink ejection.

With the implication that Garrus is also likely a stud in the sack as well, but I digress... 

Yes, well...my canon Shepard isn't going to discover that first hand. I've got to figure out how I'm going to keep Ash and Tali from killing eachother.

My FemShep Adept, on the other hand... :innocent:

I hear they're calling it "peace in the arms of a turian" these days.

[RiouHotaru]

Collider wrote...

I doubt Jacob would sacrifice the squad, lol.

Which is why I didn't like him flipping the scenario and using Shepard's squad.  They're a completely different calibur than Garrus' band.  Not that his band sucked, Shepard's is just THAT much better.

[Nightwriter]

Why don't I get any popcorn. Where's my popcorn, eh? It's because I'm a paragon, isn't it. Oh I see. You can't stereotype me like this, I let Harkin get shot in the foot and I enjoyed it. Enjoyed it I tell you.

[TheBlackBaron]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I hear they're calling it "peace in the arms of a turian" these days.

I did notice that he seems fond of the soundtrack to "Fleet and Flotilla".

Should I be worried about something?

[Collider]

Sneelonz wrote...

There was a thread about this awhile back, but it got locked, so I thought that I might start one! http://social.biowar...index/1926096/1

So did you save Sidonis?

I played both endings, but neither of them seem... right. In ME1 my (paragon) Sheperd told Garrus to "take care of business" and kill Dr. Saleon, but now allowing Sidonis to live seems to go back on what my Sheperd told him... at the same time I don't think that allowing Garrus to kill him is the right thing to do.

Well anyway, it's a great quest, although I'll admit, besides this, Garrus is completely boring in ME2.

My Shepard either just agrees with Shepard on Sidonis or just rolls with whatever Garrus wants here. Garrus knows more about Sidonis than Shepard does, so I just give Garrus the wheels so to speak. That, and I doubt that I'd be thinking "imma stand in front of this guy who's about to get shot" when I'm down there.

[Manic Sheep]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Collider wrote...

I doubt Jacob would sacrifice the squad, lol.

Which is why I didn't like him flipping the scenario and using Shepard's squad.  They're a completely different calibur than Garrus' band.  Not that his band sucked, Shepard's is just THAT much better.

How do you know? We don't know anything about Garrus' gang and we only met Sidonus after the betrayal.  They could have appeared just as harden or loyal as Sheps squad. Not like you expect these things.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 29 octobre 2010 - 08:32 .

[GuardianAngel470]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

In the end, killing Sidonis outright or letting him live are almost equally beneficial and equally detrimental. Killing him without listening to him would allow garrus to rationalize his decision with his preconceived notion of a major, malicious betrayal. Letting him live would still leave him with a sense of unfinished business and guilt, but he could rationalize it with the concept that he took the high road, and the high road isn't supposed to be easy.

See, by the same token, I could see Garrus rationalizing it after learning of Sidonis' motivations as him getting his sense of closure - no more unfinished business for himself or his squad - and rationalizing the guilt away via the fact that it was clear both he and Sidonis wanted him dead.

Neither of us can really say we're right, since unless you're playing FemShep you only get one more conversation with him and that mainly involves reach and flexibility, and the bonus romance conversations she gets mainly involve unitentional euphemisms regarding heat sink ejection.

Garrus already feels enormous guilt for the death of his squad, even though it wasn't his fault. He's like me, with an overactive guilt reflex. Whereas he would be ignorant of anything that contradicted his pre-established idea of what happened, or understanding with something to find solace in, if he killed him after finding out his motivation I am certain he would see himself as a murderer.

This, coupled with his guilt issues, would destroy the Garrus we know of today. At least, that's how I see it.

[RiouHotaru]

[quote]Manic Sheep wrote...

[/quote]How do you know? We don't know anything about Garrus' gang and we only met Sidonus after the betrayal.  They could have appeared just as harden or loyal as Sheps squad. Not like you expect these things.

[/quote]

I doubt Garrus' squad has quite the diverse skillset that Shepard's did, or the varied backgrounds.

[RiouHotaru]

Nightwriter wrote...

Why don't I get any popcorn. Where's my popcorn, eh? It's because I'm a paragon, isn't it. Oh I see. You can't stereotype me like this, I let Harkin get shot in the foot and I enjoyed it. Enjoyed it I tell you.

True...but man, Garrus headbutting him and then stating "I didn't shoot him~" like that made me giggle.  Also, here, have some of my popcorn.

[GodWood]

RiouHotaru wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Its Jacob.
He sacrificed your squad.
and your LI.
still forgive?

Again, assuming his only choices in the matter were "betray your squad or suffer a horrid death", then yes, forgiven.  I mean really, are you trying to come up with a combination under the hope I'll say "YURUSENAI!" (That's "unforgiveable" in japanese)

Well no as I never changed the situation, I just put a name to the killer.
Anyways all i was doing was trying to have others put themself in Garrus' skin and think what they'd do, as I'm sure most would seek revenge.
Oh, and I studied the Japanese language for 5 years  (hardly fluent though)

[Collider]

Since I "renegaded" Garrus twice (imo it was more like my Shepard just agreed with Garrus' viewpoint), I hope they aren't going to overboard and character assassinate renegade Garrus in ME3.