165 réponses à ce sujet

[Manic Sheep]

Nightwriter wrote...

Why don't I get any popcorn. Where's my popcorn, eh? It's because I'm a paragon, isn't it. Oh I see. You can't stereotype me like this, I let Harkin get shot in the foot and I enjoyed it. Enjoyed it I tell you.

*hiss* It's mine! Mine! Myyy PRECIOUSSS.

[Manic Sheep]

RiouHotaru wrote...


I doubt Garrus' squad has quite the diverse skillset that Shepard's did, or the varied backgrounds.

Probably not but how does that relate to betrayal? Not all of sheps squad are even trained soldiers and even if they are it doesn’t mean they can’t lose their nerve and betray you.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 29 octobre 2010 - 08:42 .

[Randy1012]

Collider wrote...

Since I "renegaded" Garrus twice (imo it was more like my Shepard just agreed with Garrus' viewpoint), I hope they aren't going to overboard and character assassinate renegade Garrus in ME3.

In all likelihood, it's not going to make a major difference one way or another, much like convincing Garrus to stay in C-Sec or reapply for the Spectres in ME1 turned out not to matter. People who import ME2 saves might get an extra line of dialogue here and there, but that's probably going to be it.

[RiouHotaru]

Collider wrote...

Since I "renegaded" Garrus twice (imo it was more like my Shepard just agreed with Garrus' viewpoint), I hope they aren't going to overboard and character assassinate renegade Garrus in ME3.

I doubt it, they acknowledged your persuasion of Garrus from ME1, so I doubt they'll just ignore the outcome of his loyalty mission.

[GuardianAngel470]

Manic Sheep wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Collider wrote...

I doubt Jacob would sacrifice the squad, lol.

Which is why I didn't like him flipping the scenario and using Shepard's squad.  They're a completely different calibur than Garrus' band.  Not that his band sucked, Shepard's is just THAT much better.

How do you know? We don't know anything about Garrus' gang and we only met Sidonus after the betrayal.  They could have appeared just as harden or loyal as Sheps squad. Not like you expect these things.

You know, I was about to describe why I thought that he didn't have a good enough squad, but then I realized that Garrus' squad is basically the same thing as Shepard's squad.

Merc's who want to atone: Thane and possibly Zaeed
STG: Mordin
Tech Expert: Tali and Legion

And I forget the rest of the warrior types that Garrus says he had. Point is, his squad might have been foreshadowing for Shepard's squad.  But I guess when you look at the types of soldiers Shepard has:

Mordin: Salarian Genius responsible for the second Genophage
Legion: Geth, seriously, he doesn't need any other qualification
Samara: Asari Justicar, Garrus can't have had one of those
Thane: Expert infiltrator and assassin, decades of experience
Zaeed: He's a bounty hunter with a bounty on his head, does he need another aspect?
Kasumi: Expert infiltrator


You kind of assume that Garrus didn't have anyone nearly as good.

[Collider]

Randy1083 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Since I "renegaded" Garrus twice (imo it was more like my Shepard just agreed with Garrus' viewpoint), I hope they aren't going to overboard and character assassinate renegade Garrus in ME3.

In all likelihood, it's not going to make a major difference one way or another, much like convincing Garrus to stay in C-Sec or reapply for the Spectres in ME1 turned out not to matter. People who import ME2 saves might get an extra line of dialogue here and there, but that's probably going to be it.

ME3 is different because it's the end of the series, whereas ME2 was the middle. In ME3 they can go all out with branching paths without worrying about exporting save data.

[GuardianAngel470]

Nightwriter wrote...

Why don't I get any popcorn. Where's my popcorn, eh? It's because I'm a paragon, isn't it. Oh I see. You can't stereotype me like this, I let Harkin get shot in the foot and I enjoyed it. Enjoyed it I tell you.

Yup, you're Canadien.

[GuardianAngel470]

Collider wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Since I "renegaded" Garrus twice (imo it was more like my Shepard just agreed with Garrus' viewpoint), I hope they aren't going to overboard and character assassinate renegade Garrus in ME3.

In all likelihood, it's not going to make a major difference one way or another, much like convincing Garrus to stay in C-Sec or reapply for the Spectres in ME1 turned out not to matter. People who import ME2 saves might get an extra line of dialogue here and there, but that's probably going to be it.

ME3 is different because it's the end of the series, whereas ME2 was the middle. In ME3 they can go all out with branching paths without worrying about exporting save data.

They can, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will.

[Randy1012]

Collider wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Since I "renegaded" Garrus twice (imo it was more like my Shepard just agreed with Garrus' viewpoint), I hope they aren't going to overboard and character assassinate renegade Garrus in ME3.

In all likelihood, it's not going to make a major difference one way or another, much like convincing Garrus to stay in C-Sec or reapply for the Spectres in ME1 turned out not to matter. People who import ME2 saves might get an extra line of dialogue here and there, but that's probably going to be it.

ME3 is different because it's the end of the series, whereas ME2 was the middle. In ME3 they can go all out with branching paths without worrying about exporting save data.

Right, but like ME2, ME3 is still going to be designed as a potential standalone game for those ever-important new gamers who decide to make ME3 their first game in the franchise, so I don't expect BioWare to make what happened in ME2's loyalty missions a major component in how ME3 and its characters behave.

[Collider]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
You kind of assume that Garrus didn't have anyone nearly as good.

I don't doubt Garrus' skills as a team leader, but the ME2 squad is basically said to the best of the best (for all intents and purposes) of their field. You have Jack who's the most powerful human biotic, Grunt who is a genetically engineered super soldier, Garrus himself who is a successful vigilante team leader, Legion who's a one-of-a-kind geth, Tali who is considered a technological genius for an entire race, Kasumi who is the master thief, Thane who is the master assassin, etc.

Also unlike Cerberus, Garrus was strapped for cash and part of the reason he went to Omega in the first place was to raise money for his family. 

[Collider]

Right, but like ME2, ME3 is still going to be designed as a potential standalone game for those ever-important new gamers who decide to make ME3 their first game in the franchise, so I don't expect BioWare to make what happened in ME2's loyalty missions a major component in how ME3 and its characters behave.

What standalone means is pretty ambiguous. It could just mean that new players don't have to play the first two games (which is confirmed). It could mean that new players don't have to play the first two games to understand the plot reasonably enough. I imagine it's either of those two.

[Spectre_907]

I paragoned Garrus in ME but allowed him to kill Sidonis in ME2 despite my protests. After doing the paragon interrupt, I let Garrus kill Sidonis. I thought it would be merciful. He was right in pointing out that no one else knew what Sidonis did or that they would care (he betrayed the team in the Terminus systems after all). After Garrus said, "What you do if someone betrayed you?" it made me think, I would probably do the same thing if I was in his position.

[Nightwriter]

Manic Sheep wrote...

*hiss* It's mine! Mine! Myyy PRECIOUSSS.

Oh I see how it is! Well fine, I'm getting my popcorn from Riou, I don't need you anyway!

And Collider, I guess maybe Jacob wasn't the best example. Say it was Zaeed who betrayed the crew instead.

And the only way to get vengeance is to track him down and choose between going after him and leaving a refinery to burn... and Sidonis is there, saying, "Don't take the shot, Shepard! Can't you see he's suffering enough for this?!"... and Zaeed is on a walkway overhead going "Reminds me of a time me and this Spectre went to kill my old partner... he smacked me like a wench and told me to have more team spirit... so I killed his whole goddamn team... the little bald tart almost castrated me biotically before I blew her up... still don't have any feeling in my pelvis..."

[RiouHotaru]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

What you are essentially saying is that because I must fight through mercs to complete this mission, I absolutely must choose the renegade outcome. And I suspect you will call this logic.

Actually no, I'm on your side. I find that for a paragon the entire quest is broken. I want to rewrite the quest so that paragons can do it and not be hypocrites.

I'm curious, what part of it makes us hypocrites?  I'm not being mean or sarcastic either.  I'm genuinely curious how you think the quest makes paragons act hypocritical.

[RiouHotaru]

Nightwriter wrote...

Oh I see how it is! Well fine, I'm getting my popcorn from Riou, I don't need you anyway!

And Collider, I guess maybe Jacob wasn't the best example. Say it was Zaeed who betrayed the crew instead.

And the only way to get vengeance is to track him down and choose between going after him and leaving a refinery to burn... and Sidonis is there, saying, "Don't take the shot, Shepard! Can't you see he's suffering enough for this?!"... and Zaeed is on a walkway overhead going "Reminds me of a time me and this Spectre went to kill my old partner... he smacked me like a wench and told me to have more team spirit... so I killed his whole goddamn team... the little bald tart almost castrated me biotically before I blew her up... still don't have any feeling in my pelvis..."

...Oh god I just read that in Zaeed's voice  DAMMNIT NIGHTWRITER.

[GuardianAngel470]

Collider wrote...

Right, but like ME2, ME3 is still going to be designed as a potential standalone game for those ever-important new gamers who decide to make ME3 their first game in the franchise, so I don't expect BioWare to make what happened in ME2's loyalty missions a major component in how ME3 and its characters behave.

What standalone means is pretty ambiguous. It could just mean that new players don't have to play the first two games (which is confirmed). It could mean that new players don't have to play the first two games to understand the plot reasonably enough. I imagine it's either of those two.

In the immortal words of Garrus, the subject of this thread, "I like to expect the worst. There's a small chance I'll be pleasantly surprised."

[Icinix]

Nightwriter wrote...

I did not save Sidonis. I saved Garrus. Sidonis being alive in my playthrough is just a condition of that.

+ 3.14159265

[Jonesey2k]

I let him live. Garrus could do without murdering one of his old friends and even agrees once you let Lantar have his say.

Besides, it's good to have people owing you their lives, could come in handy. That is if he doesn't top himself that is...

[GuardianAngel470]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

What you are essentially saying is that because I must fight through mercs to complete this mission, I absolutely must choose the renegade outcome. And I suspect you will call this logic.

Actually no, I'm on your side. I find that for a paragon the entire quest is broken. I want to rewrite the quest so that paragons can do it and not be hypocrites.

I'm curious, what part of it makes us hypocrites?  I'm not being mean or sarcastic either.  I'm genuinely curious how you think the quest makes paragons act hypocritical.

The fact that you fight through mercs to spare a merc. The fact that you value Sidonis' life so much higher than the army of mercs you gunned down to get to him.

And it is, it is hypocritical. 

[Collider]

The fact that you fight through mercs to spare a merc. The fact that you value Sidonis' life so much higher than the army of mercs you gunned down to get to him.



And it is, it is hypocritical.

Those mercs SHOT at you. Sidonis is just standing there weaponless being a sad panda, in contrast.

[Manic Sheep]

A person skill in whatever particular field they are in dose not necessarily mean they won’t crack under torture or certain death. Although being that you are all on a suicide mission anyway it would be a little strange if they did. But then again there is a difference between fighting for your life and knowing without a doubt you will die and then being offered a way out. Ahhh just forget that point for a sec or make it the ME1 squad or somthing.
Anyway, see how you feel about the Shep Squad? That’s probably exactly how Garrus felt about his.
Now imagine that one of your squad, and know I don’t mean your least favourite squad member. Someone who you would trust implicitly. Someone who you and everyone else relies on and who should be able to stand up in the face of death...betrays your whole squad to save their own ass. Your entire squad apart from you dies and you find that the one who betrayed you has cleared their bank and skipped town. You really would be willing to forgive them? I mean not kill them maybe but forgive them? I can't imagine doing that but maybe I'm just a horrible person. Still wouldn't make it right tho I supose.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 29 octobre 2010 - 09:04 .

[Manic Sheep]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

What you are essentially saying is that because I must fight through mercs to complete this mission, I absolutely must choose the renegade outcome. And I suspect you will call this logic.

Actually no, I'm on your side. I find that for a paragon the entire quest is broken. I want to rewrite the quest so that paragons can do it and not be hypocrites.

I'm curious, what part of it makes us hypocrites?  I'm not being mean or sarcastic either.  I'm genuinely curious how you think the quest makes paragons act hypocritical.

The fact that you fight through mercs to spare a merc. The fact that you value Sidonis' life so much higher than the army of mercs you gunned down to get to him.

And it is, it is hypocritical. 

They were shooting at you. Sidonis is unarmed and not a threat. There is a big dif

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 29 octobre 2010 - 09:06 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Spectre_907 wrote...

I paragoned Garrus in ME but allowed him to kill Sidonis in ME2 despite my protests. After doing the paragon interrupt, I let Garrus kill Sidonis. I thought it would be merciful. He was right in pointing out that no one else knew what Sidonis did or that they would care (he betrayed the team in the Terminus systems after all). After Garrus said, "What you do if someone betrayed you?" it made me think, I would probably do the same thing if I was in his position.

But it wouldn't make you right and it wouldn't do anything good for your mental state.

Sometimes friends need to step in an keep the people they love from hurting themselves.

[GuardianAngel470]

Manic Sheep wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

What you are essentially saying is that because I must fight through mercs to complete this mission, I absolutely must choose the renegade outcome. And I suspect you will call this logic.

Actually no, I'm on your side. I find that for a paragon the entire quest is broken. I want to rewrite the quest so that paragons can do it and not be hypocrites.

I'm curious, what part of it makes us hypocrites?  I'm not being mean or sarcastic either.  I'm genuinely curious how you think the quest makes paragons act hypocritical.

The fact that you fight through mercs to spare a merc. The fact that you value Sidonis' life so much higher than the army of mercs you gunned down to get to him.

And it is, it is hypocritical. 

They were shoting at you. Sidonis is unarmed and not a threat. There is a big dif

But you instigate the firefight by going there. Technically, and from a roleplaying perspective, you don't have to march headlong into the base and kill dozens of mercs in order to get to sidonis. You could just not help Garrus, or find another way.

The point is that the situation was setup by the writers in such a way that the paragon thing to do is to not do the mission because otherwise you kill too many to balance the life saved.