70 réponses à ce sujet

[ddv.rsa]

  "Bhelen is a revolutionary"
  "He abolishes the caste (or eases it) to allow the commoners a better life."
  "He eliminates the caste system and grants the former casteless the right to bear arms."


Wow. If you search for "Bhelen" on the forums you'll find a ton of comments like this. I'm quite amazed! When did Bhelen become a saint? Or a revolutionary? Seriously people, Bhelen is not Che Guevara. Firstly, Bhelen doesn't abolish the caste system. Not even close. He offers casteless the chance for a little more freedom in exchange for very dangerous military service. So if you're a casteless and aren't willing (or able) to fight darkspawn, having Bhelen on the throne doesn't help you one bit. 


Secondly, he's doing this because its expedient, not because he cares about the casteless. For the record, he doesn't give a damn. If you speak to him as a dwarf noble you'll hear how scornfully he talks about them.
Then there's the "he stops Branka using the anvil cuz' it's evil" line. No. Choose Bhelen, save the anvil, and pay attention to the epilogue slide: Bhelen was perfectly happy with forcing people to become golems and for a while did just that. He only tried to stop its use when he lost control over golem production - Branka refused to work for him exclusively.


My point? Bhelen may be the better King, but he's not some knight in shining armor out to save the casteless. As Branka put it, "Hmm. Bhelen, is it? Twisted cretin, the last I heard. Not surpising he's done so well for himself."

(For the record, I almost always choose Bhelen.) 

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 29 octobre 2010 - 09:35 .

[ejoslin]

Someone ever claimed Bhelen was a saint?

And his motives matter how? He greatly improves the lot of the casteless. He allows them to work, which is a huge step up from what they were allowed to do before (which is nothing -- they weren't allowed to work at all which is why the choices were crime and begging -- and selling their teeth).

I don't think anyone is claiming that Bhelen is a wonderful, kind, moral man (I've certainly never seen that). Just that he's a good king, a reformer, and greatly improves lives for the casteless and merchant castes with changes that may very well actually save Orzammar.

Edit: Regarding the Anvil, the most I've seen there is that the results are better with Bhelen than they are with Harrowmont.

Second edit: It's actually the epilogue that says that caste restrictions were loosened.  Here's the exact card:

In Orzammar, King Bhelen quickly proved himself a reformer. Trade with the surface lands increased and caste restrictions were loosened. The casteless were permitted to take arms against the darkspawn in exchange for new freedoms. For the first time in generations, the line in the Deep Roads was pushed back, and a few thaigs were reclaimed.

He gets even better results if it's a dwarf warden who asks for a boon.

Modifié par ejoslin, 29 octobre 2010 - 12:28 .

[blothulfur]

Bhelens a bastard but hes also a visionary who can see that his people are headed for extinction if they dont change, he is going to be hated but he is willing to bear that burden if it saves his people. Thats my view anyway.

[Sarah1281]

I've never heard Bhelen referred to as a saint either. But I HAVE heard him called the dwarven messiah.

Most Bhelen supporters (and definitely all that I've seen) don't think he helps the casteless because he cares about them. The Assembly was already trying to get them involved in dangerous military service in the Legion of the Dead and that's part of why they're allowed no other means of social advancement (or so claims the codex). Bhelen just makes it worth their while. And who ever said Bhelen stops Branka because she's evil? Still, you can bet the surface raids that force humans and elves into becoming golems and start a war with Ferelden that happen under Harrowmont would not fly with him.

[ddv.rsa]

I don't mean he's literally called a saint. I guess I'm just venting months worth of frustration at how this arrogant little prat gets idolized. My favourite is "The caste system is evil, Bhelen abolishes it!". *sigh*



@ Sarah1281: That happens because Harrowmont doesn't have enough backbone to stand up to a paragon. Bhelen is the opposite; he's so unbelievably arrogant he actually attacks a paragon. Under Endrin or any previous ruler this would have been unthinkable. Had Bhelen not disbanded the Assembly they would probably have deposed him for that little stunt.

[ddv.rsa]

But even though I dislike him, I'll concede he's much better for Orzammar. Even from a moral point of view. Harrowmont and the old guard are plenty corrupt.

[ejoslin]

But but but... no one says that! And you don't have to be a great guy to make great changes. In fact, it helps if you're a ruthless bastard. You're mistaking a lot of what is said because you personally don't like him. I just don't see Bhelen worship here so much as acknowledgement that he turned out to be a good king who perhaps will save Orzammar from itself.



See, I do think Bhelen has a vision for saving Orzammar, and that is his primary motivation. If he just wanted power, there are far easier ways for him to get and keep and increase it rather than what he does end up doing.



I don't like him much, personally. But I don't have to like him -- I'm not going to be inviting him out for dinner dates or anything. I think he can end up being a great leader, and a great king. And that is what is really important in the long run.

[Elhanan]

I only choose Bhelen for my sister (ie; DC Origin), as I could care less if Bhelen can walk on lava or not; he is a cowardly murderer, and I enjoy taking him down in public.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Bhelen is definitely not a revolutionary (and far from being a saint and he'd be the first to admit it) but he is a visionary, a reformer and a brilliant king. I admire Bhelen personally.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 octobre 2010 - 04:12 .

[Sarah1281]

ddv.rsa wrote...
@ Sarah1281: That happens because Harrowmont doesn't have enough backbone to stand up to a paragon. Bhelen is the opposite; he's so unbelievably arrogant he actually attacks a paragon. Under Endrin or any previous ruler this would have been unthinkable. Had Bhelen not disbanded the Assembly they would probably have deposed him for that little stunt.

And how, exactly, do you propose that any other king stand up to Branka and her Anvil and her golems without force? Under Endrin or any other previous ruler, they would have been forced to let her do whatever she wants or do what Bhelen did and outlaw the Anvil and try to reclaim it from her. I highly doubt anyone would have tried to depose him for that. Sure she's a Paragon but Branka is seriously disturbed and many people would take into account the circumstances of the 'attack.'

Besides, if the Assembly can't even stay formed under Bhelen, what makes you think they have the power to depose him? 

[DWSmiley]

Bhelen's main handicap in getting my wardens' support isn't his own pungent personaility; it's the little twerp he has as a second. It's a surprisingly bad choice for such a shrewd operator. But talking to Nadezda plus hearing Harrowmount's crier - the boasts of him being the upholder of tradition while Bhelen threatens change - usually seals the deal.

[Wulfram]

I don't see much signs of visionary Bhelen in game. His plot is apparently competently played out in the DN origin, but that's about the only good thing I can say about him.

[Fishy]

ejoslin wrote...

Someone ever claimed Bhelen was a saint?

And his motives matter how? He greatly improves the lot of the casteless. He allows them to work, which is a huge step up from what they were allowed to do before (which is nothing -- they weren't allowed to work at all which is why the choices were crime and begging -- and selling their teeth).

I don't think anyone is claiming that Bhelen is a wonderful, kind, moral man (I've certainly never seen that). Just that he's a good king, a reformer, and greatly improves lives for the casteless and merchant castes with changes that may very well actually save Orzammar.

Edit: Regarding the Anvil, the most I've seen there is that the results are better with Bhelen than they are with Harrowmont.

Second edit: It's actually the epilogue that says that caste restrictions were loosened.  Here's the exact card:

In Orzammar, King Bhelen quickly proved himself a reformer. Trade with the surface lands increased and caste restrictions were loosened. The casteless were permitted to take arms against the darkspawn in exchange for new freedoms. For the first time in generations, the line in the Deep Roads was pushed back, and a few thaigs were reclaimed.

He gets even better results if it's a dwarf warden who asks for a boon.

Yet he's a power-hungry , fracticide tyrant who only care about power.Let's make it clear.
He's not working for the people , but the people are working for him.

[Sarah1281]

Yet he's a power-hungry , fracticide tyrant who only care about power.Let's make it clear.

He's not working for the people , but the people are working for him.

And if they both benefit, who cares?

[ddv.rsa]

Sarah1281 wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...
@ Sarah1281: That happens because Harrowmont doesn't have enough backbone to stand up to a paragon. Bhelen is the opposite; he's so unbelievably arrogant he actually attacks a paragon. Under Endrin or any previous ruler this would have been unthinkable. Had Bhelen not disbanded the Assembly they would probably have deposed him for that little stunt.

And how, exactly, do you propose that any other king stand up to Branka and her Anvil and her golems without force? Under Endrin or any other previous ruler, they would have been forced to let her do whatever she wants or do what Bhelen did and outlaw the Anvil and try to reclaim it from her. I highly doubt anyone would have tried to depose him for that. Sure she's a Paragon but Branka is seriously disturbed and many people would take into account the circumstances of the 'attack.'

Besides, if the Assembly can't even stay formed under Bhelen, what makes you think they have the power to depose him? 

Easy. Bhelen could have simply refused Branka's demand for people to put on the Anvil, it would have been well within his rights. Not even Paragons have authority to compel the king. That said Paragons are accorded enormous respect in dwarven society. In this scenario, the Assembly only crowns Bhelen with Branka's blessing - she's the kingmaker. If Bhelen turned against her I doubt it would be well received. 

If Branka had enough influence with the Assembly to put Bhelen on the throne, I think it's very possible she might have had enough to dethrone him. It's not unprecedented for the Assembly to depose rulers; consider what happened to Queen Getha when the Legion of Steel was lost. While not as bad, I'd say taking military action against a Paragon would be seen as a grave offense. Sure, Branka was crazy, but how well known would that be? 

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:23 .

[ddv.rsa]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yet he's a power-hungry , fracticide tyrant who only care about power.Let's make it clear.
He's not working for the people , but the people are working for him.

And if they both benefit, who cares?

Mostly DNs who've been screwed over by Bhelen. <_<

But even DNs have to think further than revenge and consider the welfare of Orzammar and House Aeducan. 

[Sarah1281]

Easy. Bhelen could have simply refused Branka's demand for people to put on the Anvil, it would have been well within his rights. Not even Paragons have authority to compel the king. That said Paragons are accorded enormous respect in dwarven society. In this scenario, the Assembly only crowns Bhelen with Branka's blessing - she's the kingmaker. If Bhelen turned against her I doubt it would be well received.

You know, Harrowmont tried saying no. It led to countless elves and humans being abducted and a war with Ferelden. How, besides force, could he enforce not letting her do that? And losing so many golems is far worse than trying to recover the Anvil that the crazy Paragon took back into the Deep Roads with her. Besides, if you admit that the Paragon didn't care who you picked they'll let YOU pick whoever you want to be king because they're out of ideas and sick of this impasse. Would they try to depose Bhelen because he sent troops after you after you screwed him over?

[ddv.rsa]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You know, Harrowmont tried saying no. It led to countless elves and humans being abducted and a war with Ferelden. How, besides force, could he enforce not letting her do that? And losing so many golems is far worse than trying to recover the Anvil that the crazy Paragon took back into the Deep Roads with her. Besides, if you admit that the Paragon didn't care who you picked they'll let YOU pick whoever you want to be king because they're out of ideas and sick of this impasse. Would they try to depose Bhelen because he sent troops after you after you screwed him over?

I wasn't aware of all of that, and your argument makes sense. So no, I suppose they wouldn't. 

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 29 octobre 2010 - 06:02 .

[Ryzaki]

And this is why I can never bring myself to save the Anvil. Too much drama comes with it.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Ryzaki wrote...

And this is why I can never bring myself to save the Anvil. Too much drama comes with it.

You were worried about drama? I was worried about putting the Anvil and the Legion of Steel into the hands of a crazy woman who turned her entire House over to the darkspawn. Branka was worse than Bhelen, even though I could have easily seen Bhelen sending his enemies to Branka for golemification just as King Valtor had done with Caridin.

[Costin_Razvan]

Like what the hell? Since when is being a good leader make you Saint?



Being a good leader has NOTHING to do with morality, in fact the most ruthless people in our history have also been some of the greatest leaders. Like say I dunno: Napoleon, Augustus, Ghenkis Khan, Stalin ( say what you will, but the USSR did become a super power because of him ), Fredrick the Great, Catherine the Great, Alexander the Great, Caesar, Mehmed II, Charlemagne etc. etc. ( I really could write for hours here )

[TJPags]

You know, give the downtrodden - usually a large chunk of society - a little power, and they love you. You now have a large base of support, be it military, economic, or simply manpower.



Age old story.



Bhelen, however, the scheming little SOB - can't stand him. Made him king once, and yes the epilogues are better, but really - can't stomach the man, no matter what origin I'm playing. and so can't make him king.

[Reaverwind]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And this is why I can never bring myself to save the Anvil. Too much drama comes with it.

You were worried about drama? I was worried about putting the Anvil and the Legion of Steel into the hands of a crazy woman who turned her entire House over to the darkspawn. Branka was worse than Bhelen, even though I could have easily seen Bhelen sending his enemies to Branka for golemification just as King Valtor had done with Caridin.

Yea - the Anvil always gets destroyed because of her - my Wardens find her too crazy to trust. Bhelen is a complete ass - but so what? Few members of the Assembly are saints. And the so-called honorable Lord Harrowmont buys his votes, not to mention is a staunch supporter of a caste system that isn't doing Orzammer any favors.

[Ryzaki]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And this is why I can never bring myself to save the Anvil. Too much drama comes with it.

You were worried about drama? I was worried about putting the Anvil and the Legion of Steel into the hands of a crazy woman who turned her entire House over to the darkspawn. Branka was worse than Bhelen, even though I could have easily seen Bhelen sending his enemies to Branka for golemification just as King Valtor had done with Caridin.

That's sort of what I meant by the drama.  

And...yeah Branka being a loon doesn't make that a hard choice either.

[Elhanan]

While the epilogue may be considered better for the Dwarves, the confrontation in the Assemby seems more lively when Harrowmont is chosen, and Bhelen throws a fit. Epic fail indeed!