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[Ferretinabun]

I do have to say even though Bhelen is the better choice retrospectively, it's hard to justify the decision to choose him from an RP stance. The clues that he'd be a good king are few and subtle, while, even if you're not a Dwarf Noble, you can still get first-hand evidence of his brazen scheming. It's just so easy to dislike the S.O.B.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Yes, Bhelen is a bastard, but he's a magnificent bastard. The dwarves are on the brink of total demise, you can't afford to be a nice, noble individual when your people are clinging to traditions that are rapidly encouraging that demise. In such situations, the only thing that's going to turn back the tide of extinction is a ruthless, driven douchenozzle who is going to force the necessary changes needed to survive, whether people like it or not. It's do or die for the dwarves.



Would I personally ever choose someone like Bhelen to lead my country? Hell, **** no! But then again, my nation and people aren't on the brink of extinction because of some outside and near unstoppable threat, either.

[Elhanan]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Yes, Bhelen is a bastard, but he's a magnificent bastard. The dwarves are on the brink of total demise, you can't afford to be a nice, noble individual when your people are clinging to traditions that are rapidly encouraging that demise. In such situations, the only thing that's going to turn back the tide of extinction is a ruthless, driven douchenozzle who is going to force the necessary changes needed to survive, whether people like it or not. It's do or die for the dwarves.

Would I personally ever choose someone like Bhelen to lead my country? Hell, **** no! But then again, my nation and people aren't on the brink of extinction because of some outside and near unstoppable threat, either.

While choosing Harrowmont does not lead to change in the Caste system during his reign, it does not mean death to the Dwarves; just for him.Sure, maintaining the same old; same old is not a good thing, but neither is placing another back-stabbing, self-serving politician on the throne. There is no good choice here.

Bhelen serves his people well as wax on the floor of the Assembly.

[Costin_Razvan]

While choosing Harrowmont does not lead to change in the Caste system during his reign, it does not mean death to the Dwarves; just for him.Sure, maintaining the same old; same old is not a good thing, but neither is placing another back-stabbing, self-serving politician on the throne. There is no good choice here.

Are you a idiot or just pretending to be one. Of course it's not good a thing to preserve the old system, and I would dare ask how can it be OK in any sort of measure to leave the castless as they are?



What because Bhelen is, can be essentially be reduced to, a dick? Really? Pray tell, how are you NOT a dick as well by refusing to care about the suffering of so many?



Does Bhelen personally care? Maybe not, but hell he is at least giving them a chance.

[ddv.rsa]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Are you a idiot or just pretending to be one. Of course it's not good a thing to preserve the old system, and I would dare ask how can it be OK in any sort of measure to leave the castless as they are?

What because Bhelen is, can be essentially be reduced to, a dick? Really? Pray tell, how are you NOT a dick as well by refusing to care about the suffering of so many?

Does Bhelen personally care? Maybe not, but hell he is at least giving them a chance.

You know, Bhelen DOES leave the casteless exactly as they are - unless they're willing and able to fight darkspawn. Where does this leave the  young, weak and old casteless? Or for that matter anyone without a deathwish. But as has been pointed out earlier, this isn't really anything new. If a casteless really wants to fight darkspawn they're welcome to join the Legion of the Dead. Even under Harrowmont. 

The Legion might be suicide, but I don't think their chances as cannon fodder against the darkspawn are much better. But yeah, if they can survive their military service they get a better deal. A chance, even a small one, is better than nothing (btw, even then they're still casteless, just with a few more rights).

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 31 octobre 2010 - 06:04 .

[Elhanan]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Are you a idiot or just pretending to be one. Of course it's not good a thing to preserve the old system, and I would dare ask how can it be OK in any sort of measure to leave the castless as they are?

Don't know. Appears to be your chosen specialty; not mine.

As for all the Bhelen lovers that base the coming change on the rumors and gossip of a few, glad the epilogue worked out well enough for you, in case you did not already know.... 

What because Bhelen is, can be essentially be reduced to, a ****? Really? Pray tell, how are you NOT a **** as well by refusing to care about the suffering of so many?

Does Bhelen personally care? Maybe not, but hell he is at least giving them a chance.

Yes; I care so much about them that I refuse to place one on the throne that will use them as trap detectors and fodder for the Darkspawn. Again, I believe in a lasting change to the system, and not a works program based on the current sexual choices of a tyrant. There are those already in Orzammar that speak of such change, and I believe Harrowmont is more willing to listen to advice than Bhelen who repeatedly indicates he is only out for himself.

[Face of Evil]

Bhelen is a huge d****, but he's ultimately what Orzammar needs.



I'm not convinced that he really gives a lick about the plight of the casteless. However, I DO think that he's concerned about the long-term survival of the city and of the dwarves. Lloosening trade restrictions and abolishing the caste system to allow the casteless to become warriors will help the dwarves in the long run.

[Asepsis]

I really do not like Bhelen, but I'm thinking about making him King in my current play through because his ending just seems much more positive for the Dwarves over all. I dunno, every time I say I'm going to side with him I chicken out, lol.



I'll probably do a play through where I side with him before I import into DA2 though, while playing a casteless Dwarf, at least than you kind of have a personal stake in making him King and it makes more sense.

[ddv.rsa]

Face of Evil wrote...

...Lloosening trade restrictions and abolishing the caste system to allow the casteless to become warriors will help the dwarves in the long run.

Statements like this irritate me no end. Bhelen does NOT abolish the caste system! 

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 31 octobre 2010 - 07:39 .

[Naliamegod]

ddv.rsa wrote...

You know, Bhelen DOES leave the casteless exactly as they are - unless they're willing and able to fight darkspawn. Where does this leave the  young, weak and old casteless? Or for that matter anyone without a deathwish..

He still provides a chance of social mobility and allowing the casteless to establish a name for themselves.  Abolishing the caste system outright would do nothing; allowing the caste to be involved in something that is generally regarded highly in society and able to make amends for their bloodlines sin is more useful.  Will some casteless not benefit?  Of course, but its better than nothing.

[Costin_Razvan]

ddv.rsa: I know that, nor did I ever claim he did abolish the caste system, and joining the Legion ( which most don't ) is a death sentence, because you are ASKED to seek death where as a soldier in the regular army you are encouraged to survive and steps are taken so that you survive.

Don't know. Appears to be your chosen specialty; not mine.

As for all the Bhelen lovers that base the coming change on the rumors and gossip of a few, glad the epilogue worked out well enough for you, in case you did not already know....

The words in the epilogue can be interpreted in many ways, some could suggest that he gives the casteless a chance for jobs, others go with the idea that Bhelen provides shelter and food for the casteless who join up and their families. A single opinion on the matter is not the truth, it's subjective.

Yes; I care so much about them that I refuse to place one on the throne that will use them as trap detectors and fodder for the Darkspawn. Again, I believe in a lasting change to the system, and not a works program based on the current sexual choices of a tyrant. There are those already in Orzammar that speak of such change, and I believe Harrowmont is more willing to listen to advice than Bhelen who repeatedly indicates he is only out for himself.

Harrowmont dies and plunges his city into Civil War. If you give him the Anvil he wages a war with the surface. The first part isn't surprising if you even bother with things like logic and reason to realize how politics work, the second I can agree is actually surprising.

So what kind of lasting change are you going to bring, huh? And who in Orzammar besides Bhelen speaks of change and actually has the power to do it? Lord Helmi? "Falls down laughing" That fool won't ever get head of his house let alone the throne. In order to make changes you need power, period.

And no, Bhelen doesn't fit the definition of a Tyrant.

In common usage, the word "tyrant" carries connotations of a harsh and cruel ruler who places his or her own interests or the interests of a small oligarchy over the best interests of the general population, which the tyrant governs or controls.

When is Bhelen harsh or cruel? Based on what a few nobles say after you make him king? Who is going by the rumors and gossip of a few now? which no have basis. If he really was a cruel and harsh he would do a Great Purge of the Noble Houses, or at least dismantle the Assembly right way. He doesn't do that until they try to assassinate him for his changes regarding the casteless.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 octobre 2010 - 04:28 .

[ddv.rsa]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

ddv.rsa: I know that, nor did I ever claim he did abolish the caste system

The comment about abolishing the caste system was actually directed to someone else. 

Anyway, while we're on the subject of Bhelen's great epilogue slides, has anyone else noticed how they don't work with Alistair? If you ask Ferelden to help Orzammar as your boon, you get a cool epi slide about the darkspawn being pushed back to the dead trenches (if Bhelen is king). But only if you ask Anora - with Alistair that plot flag doesn't seem to set.

That sucks considering your choice of boon is supposed to carry into DA2. So if Alistair is King and you ask for his help, too bad I suppose. If the choice isn't even showing in the epilogue I highly doubt it will carry over. 

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 31 octobre 2010 - 05:39 .

[Elhanan]

Costin_Razvan wrote... *snip*

Harrowmont dies and plunges his city into Civil War. If you give him the Anvil he wages a war with the surface. The first part isn't surprising if you even bother with things like logic and reason to realize how politics work, the second I can agree is actually surprising

So what kind of lasting change are you going to bring, huh? And who in Orzammar besides Bhelen speaks of change and actually has the power to do it? Lord Helmi? "Falls down laughing" That fool won't ever get head of his house let alone the throne. In order to make changes you need power, period.

And no, Bhelen doesn't fit the definition of a Tyrant.

In common usage, the word "tyrant" carries connotations of a harsh and cruel ruler who places his or her own interests or the interests of a small oligarchy over the best interests of the general population, which the tyrant governs or controls.

When is Bhelen harsh or cruel? Based on what a few nobles say after you make him king? Who is going by the rumors and gossip of a few now? which no have basis. If he really was a cruel and harsh he would do a Great Purge of the Noble Houses, or at least dismantle the Assembly right way. He doesn't do that until they try to assassinate him for his changes regarding the casteless.

Killing Harrowmont makes him warm and fuzzy, I suppose, as does the murders of Trian and possibly his other brother; maybe Father, too. Byt to be fair, the eiplogue calls him a dicator; so much nicer than tyrant....

But enough dicussion with the Murderer's Row. If your band of merry men wish to admire and defend the killers in the game, have at it. Personally, I prefer to see them become greasy spots at their various 'trials'.

[ejoslin]

Elhanan wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote... *snip*

Harrowmont dies and plunges his city into Civil War. If you give him the Anvil he wages a war with the surface. The first part isn't surprising if you even bother with things like logic and reason to realize how politics work, the second I can agree is actually surprising

So what kind of lasting change are you going to bring, huh? And who in Orzammar besides Bhelen speaks of change and actually has the power to do it? Lord Helmi? "Falls down laughing" That fool won't ever get head of his house let alone the throne. In order to make changes you need power, period.

And no, Bhelen doesn't fit the definition of a Tyrant.

In common usage, the word "tyrant" carries connotations of a harsh and cruel ruler who places his or her own interests or the interests of a small oligarchy over the best interests of the general population, which the tyrant governs or controls.

When is Bhelen harsh or cruel? Based on what a few nobles say after you make him king? Who is going by the rumors and gossip of a few now? which no have basis. If he really was a cruel and harsh he would do a Great Purge of the Noble Houses, or at least dismantle the Assembly right way. He doesn't do that until they try to assassinate him for his changes regarding the casteless.

Killing Harrowmont makes him warm and fuzzy, I suppose, as does the murders of Trian and possibly his other brother; maybe Father, too. Byt to be fair, the eiplogue calls him a dicator; so much nicer than tyrant....

But enough dicussion with the Murderer's Row. If your band of merry men wish to admire and defend the killers in the game, have at it. Personally, I prefer to see them become greasy spots at their various 'trials'.

Hmmm, only some called him a dictator, others called him a visionary.

A great leader is not necessarily a nice guy.

Funny thing is, Harrowmont upholding the current system and digging causes a whole lot more deaths.  But he IS more gentlemanly about it...

[Bruddajakka]

Well like I said in the Dwarf thread I find it really hard not to cut his head off when playing a Dwarf Noble. Mostly because despite all his scheming, and foresight he ends up little more then another stain on the assembly floor.



I know he's the better choice then Harrowmont but it's hard to resist.

[naledgeborn]

ejoslin wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote... *snip*

Harrowmont dies and plunges his city into Civil War. If you give him the Anvil he wages a war with the surface. The first part isn't surprising if you even bother with things like logic and reason to realize how politics work, the second I can agree is actually surprising

So what kind of lasting change are you going to bring, huh? And who in Orzammar besides Bhelen speaks of change and actually has the power to do it? Lord Helmi? "Falls down laughing" That fool won't ever get head of his house let alone the throne. In order to make changes you need power, period.

And no, Bhelen doesn't fit the definition of a Tyrant.

In common usage, the word "tyrant" carries connotations of a harsh and cruel ruler who places his or her own interests or the interests of a small oligarchy over the best interests of the general population, which the tyrant governs or controls.

When is Bhelen harsh or cruel? Based on what a few nobles say after you make him king? Who is going by the rumors and gossip of a few now? which no have basis. If he really was a cruel and harsh he would do a Great Purge of the Noble Houses, or at least dismantle the Assembly right way. He doesn't do that until they try to assassinate him for his changes regarding the casteless.

Killing Harrowmont makes him warm and fuzzy, I suppose, as does the murders of Trian and possibly his other brother; maybe Father, too. Byt to be fair, the eiplogue calls him a dicator; so much nicer than tyrant....

But enough dicussion with the Murderer's Row. If your band of merry men wish to admire and defend the killers in the game, have at it. Personally, I prefer to see them become greasy spots at their various 'trials'.

Hmmm, only some called him a dictator, others called him a visionary.

A great leader is not necessarily a nice guy.

Funny thing is, Harrowmont upholding the current system and digging causes a whole lot more deaths.  But he IS more gentlemanly about it...

I was about to draw a comparison to Temujin/Genghis Khan. He was straight up barbaric when it came to conquest but he was the best thing for his people.... ever.

[Sarah1281]

Harrowmont dies and plunges his city into Civil War.

Technically, all it says is that the Assembly starts scrambling for a successor once he dies. Whether or not it is civil war is not explicit.

Anyway, while we're on the subject of Bhelen's great epilogue slides, has anyone else noticed how they don't work with Alistair? If you ask Ferelden to help Orzammar as your boon, you get a cool epi slide about the darkspawn being pushed back to the dead trenches (if Bhelen is king). But only if you ask Anora - with Alistair that plot flag doesn't seem to set.



That sucks considering your choice of boon is supposed to carry into DA2. So if Alistair is King and you ask for his help, too bad I suppose. If the choice isn't even showing in the epilogue I highly doubt it will carry over.

That's not because it isn't supposed to work with Alistair, it's likely just a bug.

[gnomon7]

Regarding Bhelen's perceived "cruelty":

He only kills who needs to, he just does it without remorse or hesitation.

[Wulfram]

gnomon7 wrote...

Regarding Bhelen's perceived "cruelty":
He only kills who needs to, he just does it without remorse or hesitation.

And in the case of Harrowmont, with evident pleasure.

[Sarah1281]

Wulfram wrote...

gnomon7 wrote...

Regarding Bhelen's perceived "cruelty":
He only kills who needs to, he just does it without remorse or hesitation.

And in the case of Harrowmont, with evident pleasure.

I think that's understandable given that Bhelen went through quite a lot to become his father's only heir, he largely blames Harrowmont's support of the DN for why his father still wanted nothing to do with him and wouldn't let him near his deathbed, and then Harrowmont had stopped him from becoming king and was taking some of his hard-won support for three weeks before you even got there. He had cause to kill Harrowmont (showing strength and preventing any rebellion) and he just happened to fully enjoy it.

[ddv.rsa]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think that's understandable given that Bhelen went through quite a lot to become his father's only heir, he largely blames Harrowmont's support of the DN for why his father still wanted nothing to do with him and wouldn't let him near his deathbed, and then Harrowmont had stopped him from becoming king and was taking some of his hard-won support for three weeks before you even got there. He had cause to kill Harrowmont (showing strength and preventing any rebellion) and he just happened to fully enjoy it.

What she said. That, and Harrowmont is easily the most irritating NPC in the entire game. He can't do anything right. Even if you help him get the throne, by the time you're done you'll be so frustrated with his weakness and incompetence you'll want to kill him anyway.

I detest Bhelen, but I really can't blame him for enjoying killing Harrowmont.

[Elhanan]

ddv.rsa wrote...

What she said. That, and Harrowmont is easily the most irritating NPC in the entire game. He can't do anything right. Even if you help him get the throne, by the time you're done you'll be so frustrated with his weakness and incompetence you'll want to kill him anyway.

I detest Bhelen, but I really can't blame him for enjoying killing Harrowmont.

Jowain. Niall. Leske. Jarvia. Nan. Elven Mage studen in bad lighting. Etc.

Harrowmont does not come close to an irritant compared to these or the back-stabbing Bhelen.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

What she said. That, and Harrowmont is easily the most irritating NPC in the entire game. He can't do anything right. Even if you help him get the throne, by the time you're done you'll be so frustrated with his weakness and incompetence you'll want to kill him anyway.

I detest Bhelen, but I really can't blame him for enjoying killing Harrowmont.

Jowain. Niall. Leske. Jarvia. Nan. Elven Mage studen in bad lighting. Etc.

Harrowmont does not come close to an irritant compared to these or the back-stabbing Bhelen.

That is totally a matter of opinion. You may find all of those people more annoying than Harrowmont but there isn't a universally annoyance factor.

Isolde and Jowan are widely regarded as two of the most annoying characters in the game and guess what? They have fans.

[Siven80]

While i wouldnt call him a saint, he is a good leader and the fact he helps the castless if they join the fight against the dakspawn is a good thing imo. Just as the castless helped in the defense of Kal'hirol if you played awakenings. More dwarves fighting and having more rights the better.



I have no reservations in always choosing Bhelen for king.

[termokanden]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Isolde and Jowan are widely regarded as two of the most annoying characters in the game and guess what? They have fans.

They... have fans?