89 réponses à ce sujet

[ashwind]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Wouldn't a shotgun, say the Scimitar, plus Cryo ammo be the best against Husks?

Wont say best... because there are just so many ways to bully them 

Claymore/Evi can take them out in a hit (+ 1 melee if needed), I usually aim for the pelvis/legs because Husk are peculiar things, they die once their feet leaves the ground or when they lose their legs.

Modifié par ashwind, 01 novembre 2010 - 04:20 .

[Captain_Obvious_au]

True, which I suppose is another reason why I don't use shotguns that much. Generally I was using the Mattock to take them out at range, and then if they bunched up, Area Shockwave would kill them nice and fast.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

ashwind wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

^I might be wrong, but the Scimitar either matches or slightly outperforms the Evi and Clay vs armor, iirc.

Tis actually the opposite. Evi and Clay is better against armor because they do bonus damage against armor while the scimitar and katana dont.

Yes, shot for shot, those two obviously beats out the Scimitar, but the Scim's RoF offsets that. I know that the overall dps of shotguns is similar, but I don't remember the specific details regarding that.

"While the Scimitar may not possess the single-shot killing power of the M-22 Eviscerator or M-300 Claymore, its high rate of fire and increased ammo capacity give it a greater DPS than any other shotgun, even against armor." - Mass Effect wiki (http://masseffect.wi...i/M-27_Scimitar)

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 01 novembre 2010 - 03:52 .

[ashwind]

mashavasilec wrote...

and so the holy struggle "Scimitar against the world" begins

for the 1000th time

:D:D

That just shows how well balance the shotguns in ME2 are. Well, I wont argue that one shotgun is better than the other  

[Cra5y Pineapple]

They're not useless, you just suck at them.

[Omega-202]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Yes, shot for shot, those two obviously beats out the Scimitar, but the Scim's RoF offsets that. I know that the overall dps of shotguns is similar, but I don't remember the specific details regarding that.

"While the Scimitar may not possess the single-shot killing power of the M-22 Eviscerator or M-300 Claymore, its high rate of fire and increased ammo capacity give it a greater DPS than any other shotgun, even against armor." - Mass Effect wiki (http://masseffect.wi...i/M-27_Scimitar)

Nobody will ever argue that the Scimitar doesn't have the highest DPS.  That's simply an accepted fact.

But DPS isn't always the best measure of usefulness.  How often do you ever actually unload all 8 Scimitar shots as fast as physically possible and hit a solid target each time?  How long are you out of cover because of this?  In the end, they all really balance out. 

For example, I've done both of the "Husk vs Shotgun" scenarios: Scimitar w/Cryo and Evi w/Inferno.  Both work really well.  Usually takes 2/3 shots to end a husk (1-2 to strip and 1 to freeze) with the Scim or 1 shot and 1 melee to finish them off with the Evi. 

The way I see it is that by the 3rd Evi shot, Charge is usually up and I can just reload cancel using Charge.  With the Scim, its a lot more forgiving if you miss a shot or end up getting out of the reloading groove.  Both work nearly equally effectively.  

[Kronner]

Scimitar does not have best DPS..where did that ever come from? Yes, wiki and their craptastic gameplay information and paper results. Actual in-game comparison is here:
The Complete Shotgun comparison

Claymore and GPS have better DPS against shields (barriers are the same) AND armor. Plus Eviscerator is better than Scimitar against armor.

Armor: +15% damage, +35% melee
Vanguard Destroyer: +15% damage
Miranda: +15%
Shotgun 5/5: +50% damage
Shotgun shield piercing: +50% damage against shields

So here are the results: (shields/armor)

GPS charged - 1.47s/5.4s (without counting the 2 seconds it takes to charge up GPS)
GPS uncharged - 3.15s/6.73
Schimitar - 3.33s/6.65s
Claymore - 2.87s/5.01s
Eviscerator - 4.42s/5.72s
Katana - 3.86s/7.98s

And this test is extremely favourable for the Scimitar considering he puts melee between every 2 shots and is in melee range all the time - something that is not possible to do against multiple opponents. With slower shotguns, you have more time to get into melee range. So DPS is not the main perk of the Scimitar - it is very forgiving weapon and great defense stripper and stunner, but Claymore, GPS and probably Evi too, will kill any opponent in the game slightly faster. Shotguns are very well balanced and the player choice always comes down to personal preference anyways.

Modifié par Kronner, 01 novembre 2010 - 07:47 .

[Omega-202]

I think the commonly accepted idea comes from a more isolated, and non optimized play style.



In normal combat, you don't always follow every shot with the appropriate number of melees and if you're playing on the Xbox, you can't really pull off the melee/reload cancel with any kind of reproducibility (unless you have an extra thumb).



That video shows a very highly optimized, very non-representative metric. While nice to see, its not really a good tool to measure anything in terms of in game performance. The whole "Scimitar has higher DPS" comes from a point of "if you're just shooting with no shot/reload cancelling".

[Kronner]

Actually, it is very representative, you can't measure DPS against weak targets. This is as good as it gets for DPS testing and comparison in Mass Effect 2. Much better than the paper results sh+t that is on wikia.

Not to mention Scimitar benefits most from this test since it is the fastest firing shotgun in the game so you can take the full potential of the weapon - impossible in standard play - there is no way you can move from enemy to enemy to get to melee range and shoot AND add melee attack between shots..all in 0.6s (Scimitar max. RoF).

And Even without the reload cancel, which is a must if you want to use shotguns to their full potential, GPS has clearly better DPS anyway. That does not mean GPS is better for everyone though. Personal preference again.

Modifié par Kronner, 01 novembre 2010 - 08:06 .

[Omega-202]

But you missed my entire point from two posts up:

"But DPS isn't always the best measure of usefulness"

In realistic gameplay for the average player, you simply can't maximize the DPS on ANY shotgun. It just doesn't happen. Its a semi-irrelevant measure especially for people who are not going for their 5th speed run on the Collector Base Pipe-run.

For normal people, those numbers are useless and even more so if you're playing on Xbox and can't physically take advantage of the full potential of the reload cancel.

[Kronner]

I never said best DPS == best shotgun. Quite the contrary, I've always been saying that Shotguns in ME2 are incredibly well balanced and the choice comes down to player preference (which I mentioned in both my posts). The "feel" of the shotty is much more important than numbers. I only replied to a post that claims that Scimitar has best DPS, which is not true

Modifié par Kronner, 01 novembre 2010 - 08:24 .

[mustardshake57]

i tend to fly in with charge, then go to shotgun blasting and melee> When things get to intense i back up and use that handgun with the laser scope or in real bad instances i use that heavy weapon that fires a black hole.

[tonnactus]

Right thing: Shotguns,except the geth pulse shotgun,are not of big use for all other classes except the vanguard.
I found it stupid that they downgraded shotguns so much that only for vanguards there are of use as main weapons.
This is a science fiction game,right? And even today modern shotguns have a far better range then the things in Mass Effect 2(150 meters).

[Kronner]

Gameplay >> Realism.

In fact, no real soldier would ever use Sniper Rifle in Mass Effect 2.
Biotic Charge has reach of 40m, so I think it is safe to say there is not a single enemy in the game that is farther than what, 50, maybe 75m(?) from Shepard. Any present military Assault Rifle, SMG or Pistol is more than good enough for such a short range.

As for shotguns being useless for anyone but Vanguard..that is just ridiculous.
Even without GPS, any class can be very effectvie with the shotgun, and there are plenty of videos showing just that.

Modifié par Kronner, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:53 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

mashavasilec wrote...

and so the holy struggle "Scimitar against the world" begins

for the 1000th time

ooh, didn't mean to cause such a huge debate with my last post...
Well, the scimitar might have better dps, but the burst damage of the claymore, range bonus of the evi and balance of the katana make them all equally viable weapons imo.

[mustardshake57]

Also, pull + biotic charge + shotgun = problem solved

[tonnactus]

Kronner wrote...

Gameplay >> Realism.

For you,maybee.And good gameplay and realism doesnt exclude eachother anyway.

In fact, no real soldier would ever use Sniper Rifle in Mass Effect 2.

Thats right.Another thing where Mass Effect 2 sucks completly.There are no great areas where you could really snipe enemies. Sniper rifles just used for their huge damage in basicly indoor combat.It feels wrong and is stupid.

Biotic Charge has reach of 40m, so I think it is safe to say there is not a single enemy in the game that is farther than what, 50, maybe 75m(?) from Shepard.

There are enough enemies that couldnt be charged.Vorcha rocket troopers for example in Mordins mission. Or in grunts recruitment mission,the soldiers on the ledges.

As for shotguns being useless for anyone but Vanguard..that is just ridiculous.

Not useless.But other guns being far more usefull. I barely use shotguns as a soldier and when i did it,only for some variety.

[ashwind]

tonnactus wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Gameplay >> Realism.

For you,maybee.And good gameplay and realism doesnt exclude eachother anyway.

Well, the Mass Effect is a fictional universe. So why should "our reality" get in the way of gameplay in "mass effect universe reality"?

In fact, no real soldier would ever use Sniper Rifle in Mass Effect 2.

Thats right.Another thing where Mass Effect 2 sucks completly.There are no great areas where you could really snipe enemies. Sniper rifles just used for their huge damage in basicly indoor combat.It feels wrong and is stupid.

How many of our  soldier have kinetic shield/barrier and fictional space age armor? Modern day sniper riffle may work well and have an effective range far greater than that in ME universe but again they are not shooting at targets with kinetic shields/barriers + space age body armor.

Biotic Charge has reach of 40m, so I think it is safe to say there is not a single enemy in the game that is farther than what, 50, maybe 75m(?) from Shepard.

There are enough enemies that couldnt be charged.Vorcha rocket troopers for example in Mordins mission. Or in grunts recruitment mission,the soldiers on the ledges.

As for shotguns being useless for anyone but Vanguard..that is just ridiculous.

Not useless.But other guns being far more usefull. I barely use shotguns as a soldier and when i did it,only for some variety.

Shotguns in ME universe are mainly for CQC - hence those who dont like CQC will find them less useful and that is perfectly fine; personal preference. As for enemies that cant be dealt with in CQC - well, that is just the limitation of the shotgun because of its high CQC performance.

If I wanted to play something that is closer to our reality... maybe I'd play Modern Warfare with friends. 

[TigrisJK]

Shotguns are in no way broken in the game... the Mattock is. After I got the Mattock I stopped playing with shotguns on my Vanguard for a while simply because post-charge, the Mattock with inferno ammo tore through every target faster than any of the shotguns, so long as you tapped the trigger fast enough. No other AR or SMG will let you pull off that kind of ridiculousness directly after a charge. It's drawbacks are in two places... you run out of ammo really, really fast... and you have to spend actual money on something that adds nothing to the story or the RPG elements of the game.

But no, shotguns are not broken. Aside from the Mattock there's really nothing else that will let you kick as much ass with the Vanguard, when used properly. And they're more fun.

Modifié par TigrisJK, 02 novembre 2010 - 06:51 .

[Daforth]

tonnactus wrote...

Right thing: Shotguns,except the geth pulse shotgun,are not of big use for all other classes except the vanguard.
I found it stupid that they downgraded shotguns so much that only for vanguards there are of use as main weapons.

Woah woah, have you ever tried to play an assault sentinel with shotgun? It is a juggernaught, especially if you play with the assault armor discharge stun effectivelly. One of my favorite playstyle in ME2.

Shotty engineer is also a very effective way if played properly (including using proper squadmates and squad abilities).

That is simply not true that shotty is only useful for vanguards. I admit, for certain classes ti is not an obvious choice (like for adepts), but if you spent the time for the learning curve and master it you will find that it is awesome.

It is true that the effective range of ME2 shotguns and the cone effect (because of the 8 pellet limitation), but when used properly (means point blank range + melee (+headshot) ), shotguns are among the most destructive weapons, especially in the time-to-kill league.

Modifié par Daforth, 02 novembre 2010 - 12:12 .

[tonnactus]

ashwind wrote...

Well, the Mass Effect is a fictional universe. So why should "our reality" get in the way of gameplay in "mass effect universe reality"?

Maybee i should use the word sense instead of reality.Mass Effect plays in a fictional future,where ships travel faster then light for example. Shotguns with a range of 5 meters at best are just plain stupid because this doesnt fit with the rest of the fictional world.
The first game was far better in this way where the range of shotguns were acceptable.

Modifié par tonnactus, 02 novembre 2010 - 08:39 .

[tonnactus]

TigrisJK wrote...

Shotguns are in no way broken in the game... the Mattock is. After I got the Mattock I stopped playing with shotguns on my Vanguard for a while simply because post-charge, the Mattock with inferno ammo tore through every target faster than any of the shotguns, so long as you tapped the trigger fast enough. No other AR or SMG will let you pull off that kind of ridiculousness directly after a charge. It's drawbacks are in two places... you run out of ammo really, really fast...

How that? The mattock has still more ammo then any shotgun,even after the upgrade that increases the ammo capacity.Also,against shielded enemies,all shotguns should be better.And otherwise,against krogans and scions,the mattock should be better then most except the claymore maybee.

[tonnactus]

Daforth wrote...


Woah woah, have you ever tried to play an assault sentinel with shotgun? It is a juggernaught, especially if you play with the assault armor discharge stun effectivelly. One of my favorite playstyle in ME2.

I am not eager to copy vanguard gameplay with other classes.Thats how it ends usually,except that the vanguard has a speed and range advance that other classes nether get.

[incongruanza]

tonnactus wrote...

I am not eager to copy vanguard gameplay with other classes.Thats how it ends usually,except that the vanguard has a speed and range advance that other classes nether get.

Christ, how obvious do you want to make your trolling? If someone was really as idiotic as you're pretending to be then they surely would have swallowed their tongue and died long before they learned to use a keyboard...