18 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Okay this has been confusing me. In the mage origin Jowan runs away right before the PC heads to Ostagar. And while running is captured by some Templars (was it templars that caught him or just soldiers?) that work for Loghain. In exchange for his life Loghain had him poison the Arl of Redcliffe. So then Jowan poisons the Arl.

...Yet the Arl was considered poisoned before Ostagar even happened? Can Jowan teleport or something? 

...Is anyone willing to place that in a less confusing order for me. Because...I'm pretty confused right now. Maybe I got something wrong...but yeah....I'm confused.

[ejoslin]

Hah, I quit trying to make the DA:O timeline work -- it doesn't. Here's the best explanation I can come up with:



You and Duncan do stop off at Redcliff beforehand, where the Arl is fine (Duncan does mention to Cailin that the Arl will be there within the week). Jowan is caught during this time, and immediately afterwards goes to Redcliff (though gah, Loghain visits him, but just forget that part) JUST after you leave. Jowan immediately poisons the Arl and teaches Conner a bit about magic.

[Ryzaki]

That makes more sense than my Jowan magically teleporting theory anyways. XD



Thanks for that. I wonder how long it took to reach Ostagar?

[Mariquis]

Was the Arl poisoned before Ostagar happened? You would only hear mention of that in Lothering at the earliest via the knights from the sacred ashes quest.



Well depending on the time you spend at each place..it could work. Duncan probably saw the Arl before he recruited the warden. And then you had to travel to Ostagar (for an undetermined amount of time). During this time Jowan was captured by templars, who were then intercepted by Loghain's men and he was sent to Redcliffe (remember the templar Irminric in Howe's dungeon? He was one of the one's who'd captured Jowan but then Jowan had been taken away by Loghain's men).



During the time you spend at Ostagar (which is more or less undetermined) going around, having everyone prepare for battle, preparing for the joining, etc. Jowan could easily be at the castle by that point. He only needs to have been brought into the castle to poison the Arl.



Then you have the attack which leads to your severe injury, and once again, who knows how long it took for you to recover. Then you travel to Lothering (undetermined amount of time) and then you finally get a chance to speak to the knight.



I think that all works out. Jowan could potentially have quite a bit of time to have poison the Arl depending on how you care to interpret time in the game.

[Mnemnosyne]

There's a couple NPC's that specifically say that the arl got sick before Ostagar.  I think Ser Donall at Lothering is one of them.  The biggest problem with this whole thing is the idea that Loghain personally visited Jowan in prison and told him to poison Eamon.  At the time, Loghain was in Ostagar at the front, there's no way he could have gone back to Denerim, (where Jowan says he was when he spoke to Loghain, if I remember right) and told Jowan to poison Eamon.

The amount of time issue could be explained by saying Duncan then visited several other locations - perhaps going to the Circle Tower before visiting Highever and Denerim in search of additional recruits, and bringing the player along.  But the Loghain issue cannot possibly be explained.

I had not realized this before, but the only explanation is that Jowan is lying to you about having personally met Teyrn Loghain.  Perhaps Arl Howe is the one who hired Jowan instead?  Either that or he was tricked into thinking it was Loghain, when it really wasn't.  Howe used a Loghain look-alike?  Only possible explanation.

[kaispan]

Okay, so I didn't realize Loghain's men took him from the templars? I thought I remembered Templar what's-his-name in Howe's dungeon saying "we intercepted him on the way to Redcliffe" or something along those lines, which I took to mean while he was on his way to poison Eamon. Is there a conversation I'm missing?? I... need to know everything. xD

[Asepsis]

I figured Jowan was caught soon after he escaped, they said they caught him by Redcliffe right? That's only two days from the Circle Tower right? The only thing throwing it is he claims to have spoken to Loghain. I think my PC asked him how he knew it was Loghain and he said it was because he had seen paintings of him. I guess Howe could have easily tricked him.



Gah, I never thought of this, now that you mention it it's really confusing, lol!

[Mnemnosyne]

Don't forget he was taken to Denerim too, I'm pretty sure. So he escaped the Tower, was caught by Irminric somewhere near Redcliffe, then Loghain's men appeared and took him. He was taken to Denerim, where he claims to have met with Loghain, which is impossible - he is either lying or was tricked into thinking the person he spoke to was Loghain - and then was either taken or made his way to Redcliffe, then he started poisoning Arl Eamon. Interestingly this proves without question that Loghain could not have been personally responsible for that, and removes the only direct link we had connecting him and poisoning Eamon.



Unless Duncan was taking you all the way around Ferelden instead of straight to Ostagar, there's no way there was enough time for that. This is a plausible explanation though - if Duncan traveled with the mage-warden to Highever to look for more recruits, didn't find anyone, left before Howe's attack, then went on to Denerim to look for recruits in the Alienage, before finally going to Ostagar. If each of those stops took a day or two, as well as several days of travel in between, then there's a sufficient timespan for Jowan to have poisoned Eamon before the battle at Ostagar.



However in the end it seems clear to me that this isn't something the writers thought of either. The fact that Jowan's part in the game was changed a couple times probably made it harder for anyone to spot the mistake early on and fix it. He was originally intended to be a temporary companion in Redcliffe, at some point his role was planned to be expanded to full party member, then it was cut back all the way to what it is now. It's possible that his part in the mage origin was only decided after his part in Redcliffe was already determined, and it didn't occur to anyone to think that there wasn't enough time for him to do all that.

[nos_astra]

I agree with Koyasha. It's better to assume that Duncan checked several places for new recruits and/or that Jowan was never brought to Denerim (why to Denerim anyway?).

Someone once estimated the distances based on the Fereldan map, so you can guess how long it might take you to travel a distance likes this on foot. (or by horse).
Denerim – Redcliffe, 278 miles, 14 days
Lothering – Redcliffe, 90 miles, 5 days
Lothering – Circle Tower, 198 miles, 10 days

Not sure if this is correct but it's a hint that the timeline in the game and the distances mentioned (one day from Redcliffe to the Circle Tower, do the DR on the evening of the battle at Redcliffe and then rush to Denerim within a day?) are nonsense. And Lake Calenhad is a rather large lake.

Modifié par klarabella, 30 octobre 2010 - 07:30 .

[Asepsis]

True.

[HAL4294]

Here's what happened: In the magi origin, jowan destroyed his phylactery and used blood magic to escape from the circle. After or during Ostagar. He made it as far as Redcliffe before a single templar, Bann Alfastanna's brother, captured him and prepared to take him back to the chantry in denerim. Loghain had Arl Howe, who had recently murdered the Couslands, capture the templar and put him in the Arl of Denerim's dungeon. Loghain then made a deal with Jowan -poison Arl Eamon and I'll protect you from the Chantry. Jowan agreed and went to Redcliffe as Connor's tutor. Jowan then poisoned the arl, and isolde had him arrested and tortured. This all happened between ostagar and the warden leaving flemeths hut for Lothering. Remember that while travel may appear to take seconds, in game it takes days.

[Tinnlin]

The only other factor that might work is how long did it take Flemeth to heal Alistair and the Warder? If Logian and his men intercepted Jowan right after Ostigar while the Warden and Alistair was getting healed by Flemeth, the Jowan could have gotten to Redcliff before the Warden gets to Lothering.

[LupusYondergirl]

klarabella wrote...

I agree with Koyasha. It's better to assume that Duncan checked several places for new recruits and/or that Jowan was never brought to Denerim (why to Denerim anyway?).

Because that's where he tells you he was brought to meet Loghain, it's in the game dialogue at Redcliffe.

I'm agreeing with the idea that Duncan checked other places for recruits, though.  If he started in the northwest he would have hit Orzammar and Highever before the tower, to the Circle and grabbed the mage, Denerim for the city elf, and the dalish lands on the way to Ostagar?  The timing just didn't work out for the other potential wardens for whatever reason.  (that's what I did in my fic, at least...).

And there is also the length of time you spend in Flemeth's hut, and the length of time it takes to get from there to Lothering.  I'm thinking the wilds are bigger than they seem in game, or the chasind wouldn't be nearly as unusual a sight in the town.

[maxernst]

I don't think the timeline makes much sense, but timing of events is poorly develped in the game anyway. Though it's possible that Jowan did teleport from the tower to Denerim and then to Redcliffe. After all, doesn't he teleport out of the mage's tower? It's a long time since I've played the mage origin but my recollection is he cuts himself, casts some awesome offensive spell and then vanishes.

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

I agree with Koyasha. It's better to assume that Duncan checked several places for new recruits and/or that Jowan was never brought to Denerim (why to Denerim anyway?).

Someone once estimated the distances based on the Fereldan map, so you can guess how long it might take you to travel a distance likes this on foot. (or by horse).
Denerim – Redcliffe, 278 miles, 14 days
Lothering – Redcliffe, 90 miles, 5 days
Lothering – Circle Tower, 198 miles, 10 days

Not sure if this is correct but it's a hint that the timeline in the game and the distances mentioned (one day from Redcliffe to the Circle Tower, do the DR on the evening of the battle at Redcliffe and then rush to Denerim within a day?) are nonsense. And Lake Calenhad is a rather large lake.

This can't be right, can it?  When Denerim is attacked, Alistair says they can't possibly make it in two days, but they head out anyway and make it pretty soon after the attack begins.

Gah, DA timeline makes NO sense.

[CalJones]

No. No it doesn't.

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...

klarabella wrote...
I agree with Koyasha. It's better to assume that Duncan checked several places for new recruits and/or that Jowan was never brought to Denerim (why to Denerim anyway?).

Someone once estimated the distances based on the Fereldan map, so you can guess how long it might take you to travel a distance likes this on foot. (or by horse).
Denerim – Redcliffe, 278 miles, 14 days
Lothering – Redcliffe, 90 miles, 5 days
Lothering – Circle Tower, 198 miles, 10 days

Not sure if this is correct but it's a hint that the timeline in the game and the distances mentioned (one day from Redcliffe to the Circle Tower, do the DR on the evening of the battle at Redcliffe and then rush to Denerim within a day?) are nonsense. And Lake Calenhad is a rather large lake.

This can't be right, can it?  When Denerim is attacked, Alistair says they can't possibly make it in two days, but they head out anyway and make it pretty soon after the attack begins.

Gah, DA timeline makes NO sense.

I don't take anything they say or do in the game for face value. It's pretty much like a legend vs. what really happened in Ferelden. That's my take on it.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 novembre 2010 - 10:55 .

[Nimpe]

I might be wrong, but i SWEAR i saw jowan, as a tranquil in one of my playthroughs in ostagar...

[Bruddajakka]

I'm still curious how the hell the Mage Warden has been gone for a year if you go back to the circle tower right after leaving Lothering...seriously what the hell happened did Duncan take a detour to Weishappt on the way to Ostagar?