176 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

chex mix wrote...

how were people first impressions of Leliana?

People thought she was insane. This was our first view of her.

chex mix wrote...

Wasn't Malcom romancing both Leliana and Morrigan in the DAO trailers?

Who is Malcom?

[tmp7704]

pizoxuat wrote...

Comparing this to a similar camera angle her jaw still isn't wildly out of proportion.

I'd say it is -- when you scale the pictures so both of their figures match (as well as the angle difference allows) you get the following:



it shows the short nose which i've mentioned as well as the chin issue -- note that Isabela's chin is large enough that while the mouths of both characters are placed at the same level, the part below the lip is large enough to match overall size of a head of woman who has her mouth half-open in a smile. And this isn't even a typical woman, but one you have specifically picked to demonstrate that some women can have large chins.

But I still hold that her face is interesting and plausible, not some inhuman monstrosity.

I'll have to simply disagree with the plausible part -- this is mostly because i haven't yet been able to find a single picture of a person who would fully share Isabela's proportions, nevermind exceed them. Also, my issue isn't as much with Isabela (because yes, a single character with whatever odd proportions are given to them can certainly be interesting) but rather, that these unnatural proportions appear to be shared by most if not all characters revealed so far. Characters of both genders. And that turns it from single, potentially interesting character design into a "wtf" game-wide aesthetical choice that triggers the uncanny valley effect in my mind for no good reason.

[Sir JK]

tmp7704: I see one very glaring flaw in your proportional analysis of the picture. The picture of Isabela is set too high up, you should align the eyes not the chin/hairline. Otherwise we cannot get a decent comparison of the nose/chin/whatever since they're actually not juxtaposed.



Also, SonFransisco confirmed in anothe thread a while ago that that particular picture of Isabela is glitched. So you're comparing a graphical error to a real face. Of course it looks wrong

[tmp7704]

Sir JK wrote...

tmp7704: I see one very glaring flaw in your proportional analysis of the picture. The picture of Isabela is set too high up, you should align the eyes not the chin/hairline. Otherwise we cannot get a decent comparison of the nose/chin/whatever since they're actually not juxtaposed.

Yes, it's a problem with difference in the angle as i mentioned. However, what you point out confirms proportions issue rather than dismiss them. That is, if Isabela's proportions were actually similar to that of a human being, then her eyes wouldn't wind up considerably higher than eyes of said human being. If i adjust the image so the eyes are put on the same level, we wind up with Isabela's chin extending further down that a chin of her human match, and that's again despite that human has her mouth open.

Also, SonFransisco confirmed in anothe thread a while ago that that particular picture of Isabela is glitched. So you're comparing a graphical error to a real face. Of course it looks wrong

As i understand it the mouth of the character is smaller because of the glitch with animation, but that doesn't affect discussed features -- Isabela's nose isn't going to grow longer and her chin smaller when her lips animate properly, will they?   It also doesn't account for similar odd proportions of other characters, not when we have screenshots of these characters with different expressions.

Modifié par tmp7704, 31 octobre 2010 - 03:31 .

[pizoxuat]

If I wanted to just prove that a woman can have a large chin, I'd have cited Priscilla Presley, Meg Ryan, or Christina Ricci and that'd be that. I was looking for similar poses and a woman with superficially similar facial structure.

Really, her chin is fine. She has a small mouth, which probably won't be an issue when she is smiling, smirking, talking, or doing anything other than standing there with a completely slack, neutral non-expression.  If the small mouth is a graphic bug, then it probably won't be a problem even then.  You might not find her sexually appealing, but there is a giant gulf between "Her face excites my pants" and "BURN THE MUTANT" and she fits more than comfortably inside that.

Modifié par pizoxuat, 31 octobre 2010 - 03:37 .

[soteria]

Aren't those two pictures also slightly different in size? The real woman on our left looks larger. At least, the distance between her eyes and hairline is larger, as is the distance between her eyes and chin. I'm definitely nothing like an expert on facial features, though.

[Harid]

Salma Hayak has a Stan Smith (American Dad) level chin, but I'd smash that chick so hard who ever pulled me out would be the rightful King of England. Just saying.

pizoxuat wrote...

If I wanted to just prove that a woman can have a large chin, I'd have cited Priscilla Presley, Meg Ryan, or Christina Ricci and that'd be that. I was looking for similar poses and a woman with superficially similar facial structure.

Really,
her chin is fine. She has a small mouth, which probably won't be an
issue when she is smiling, smirking, talking, or doing anything other
than standing there with a completely slack, neutral non-expression.  If
the small mouth is a graphic bug, then it probably won't be a problem
even then.  You might not find her sexually appealing, but there is a
giant gulf between "Her face excites my pants" and "BURN THE MUTANT" and
she fits more than comfortably inside that.

"Only an internet fanboy deals in absolutes."  Yes, I know this is a badly ironic quote, from a badly written movie, but if you've been on the internet. . .there is no middle ground, or at the very least, like in american politics, they shut the **** up.

Modifié par Harid, 31 octobre 2010 - 03:52 .

[upsettingshorts]

Off topic but I laughed my ass off when Obi-wan said, "Only Sith deal in absolutes."  The statement itself is an either-or, absolute statement.

George Lucas needs a scriptwriter.

[Dave of Canada]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Off topic but I laughed my ass off when Obi-wan said, "Only Sith deal in absolutes."  The statement itself is an either-or, absolute statement.

It was supposed to sound wise and a lot of people ate it up, though.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 octobre 2010 - 03:55 .

[upsettingshorts]

Dave of Canada wrote...

It was supposed to sound wise and a lot of people ate it up, though.

It was supposed to be a totally shameless criticism of a modern contemporary politician who shall remain nameless.  But yeah, people ate it up.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 31 octobre 2010 - 03:56 .

[soteria]

George Lucas needs a scriptwriter.

In the words of Harrison Ford, "I know."

[Fortlowe]

Harid wrote...



Salma Hayak has a Stan Smith (American Dad) level chin, but I'd smash that chick so hard who ever pulled me out would be the rightful King of England. Just saying.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Awesome! I'm totally off topic, which I try to avoid, but that line alone merits all kinds of praise. Epic!



Anyways, He's right, the chin plays. The discussion about the chin has been done to death, also and it has been determined that it isn't quite as Bruce Campbelesque as it seemed after the new trailer was released. *Whew* Just stopped laughing. Rightful King of England! Nice.

[Dave of Canada]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It was supposed to be a totally shameless criticism of a modern contemporary politician who shall remain nameless.  But yeah, people ate it up.

I meant in context of the scene.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 octobre 2010 - 04:00 .

[upsettingshorts]

Yeah, I understand. But that entire exchange was completely transparent.



Just to bring it back on topic, I'm real glad I don't have to put up with such obvious commentary on contemporary politics in Bioware games, so if you are hiding messages here and there at least you're doing it well. Thanks!

[Dave of Canada]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Just to bring it back on topic, I'm real glad I don't have to put up with such obvious commentary on contemporary politics in Bioware games, so if you are hiding messages here and there at least you're doing it well. Thanks!

The undead invasion of Redcliffe was obviously a reference to the problems of our economy.

[tmp7704]

pizoxuat wrote...

There is a giant gulf between "Her face excites my pants" and "BURN THE MUTANT" and she fits more than comfortably inside that.

While this is true, inside this giant gulf there's also "something is slightly off with the proportions here" area. So far DA2 designs land squarely in this spot for me. You may find yourself not experiencing this sensation, and in a way i envy you because it means you'll probably get to enjoy DA2 more. However, i can't exactly reason with this subconscious part of the brain and tell it to shut up because someone else think it's fine, so that's pretty much it.

For what's worth, none of the pictures of people you posted trigger this reaction for me. And neither did DAO characters. But DA2 in-game characters unfortunately do it all, except so far for male Hawke, and i suspect that's just because his exact facial features are masked by the beard.

Oh and the qunari, but that's pretty normal.

[Sir JK]

tmp7704 wrote...

Yes, it's a problem with difference in the angle as i mentioned. However, what you point out confirms proportions issue rather than dismiss them. That is, if Isabela's proportions were actually similar to that of a human being, then her eyes wouldn't wind up considerably higher than eyes of said human being. If i adjust the image so the eyes are put on the same level, we wind up with Isabela's chin extending further down that a chin of her human match, and that's again despite that human has her mouth open.

No, the eyes are always in the middle of the head and are thus considered to be the only reliable "landmark" in art. You compare everything from the eyes and only then you can see the proportions properly. If you don't align them then everything looks skewered (which of course is also worsened by the different angles).

If you align Isabela's and the other picture's eyes to a straight line you will find that the nose-bridge is in the same height and the nose tip is in roughly the same height and that the mouthline correlates to the midpoint of the other mouth. Isabela's hairline ends up being slightly lower, but that is an effect of the bandana. Her chin does indeed appear further down though (however, that perspective is skewered by the fact that the compared picture is taken from above and the screenshot from below).
Isabela is fairly proportional, the only jarring problem is the mouth I think. It looks to narrow (which by extent makes the jaw look too big, which in turn makes the nose look too small). However, in other screnshots her mouth is broader, which solves the problem entirely and makes her look fairly proportional.

As i understand it the mouth of the character is smaller because of the glitch with animation, but that doesn't affect discussed features -- Isabela's nose isn't going to grow longer and her chin smaller when her lips animate properly, will they?   It also doesn't account for similar odd proportions of other characters, not when we have screenshots of these characters with different expressions.

As I said above... I think you perceive the nose as too small due to the size of the jaw as opposed to the nose itself (protip: a proportional nose ends roughly where the jaw starts and the face starts narrowing, just below the cheekbone. Which it does in Isabela's case). The jaw by extent looks to big because the mouth is too narrow.

Also, the glitch was supposedly in the facial expression program, so all characters would be affected. Which would neatly explain the huge jaws. Carver, being the most notable example, look very proportional in the knife throwinf scene in the trailer. His jaw looks a lot less pronounced there, as does Isabela's,

[NKKKK]

I'd be interesting if her husband was somehow still alive. Lol second time Zevran has failed

[Harid]

NKKKK wrote...

I'd be interesting if her husband was somehow still alive. Lol second time Zevran has failed

Well, Zevran stated he was "in the area" when he got the call to kill the Warden, so for all we know he could have been in the Area slaying Isabela's husband.

[chex mix]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Just to bring it back on topic, I'm real glad I don't have to put up with such obvious commentary on contemporary politics in Bioware games, so if you are hiding messages here and there at least you're doing it well. Thanks!

The undead invasion of Redcliffe was obviously a reference to the problems of our economy.

oh yea you candians and americans.....................

[NKKKK]

No I mean, that'd be her companion quest.

"Hey darling, remember me" he was described as a "Greasy Bastard"

[chex mix]

NKKKK wrote...

No I mean, that'd be her companion quest.
"Hey darling, remember me" he was described as a "Greasy Bastard"

she prolly hired him

[Brockololly]

tmp7704 wrote...
While this is true, inside this giant gulf there's also "something is slightly off with the proportions here" area. So far DA2 designs land squarely in this spot for me. You may find yourself not experiencing this sensation, and in a way i envy you because it means you'll probably get to enjoy DA2 more. However, i can't exactly reason with this subconscious part of the brain and tell it to shut up because someone else think it's fine, so that's pretty much it.

For what's worth, none of the pictures of people you posted trigger this reaction for me. And neither did DAO characters. But DA2 in-game characters unfortunately do it all, except so far for male Hawke, and i suspect that's just because his exact facial features are masked by the beard.

Oh and the qunari, but that's pretty normal.

Thats exactly how I feel- its very Uncanny Valley- the faces look sort of right, but there is just something "off" about all of them and whether thats the jaw/chin or occasionally buggy/dead eyes, its all very off putting and like you said, its just at some subconcious level that says "Nope- thats not right."

I'm hoping its just the animation messing up their faces, but I have a feeling its a side effect of the new face morph system.

[tmp7704]

Sir JK wrote...

No, the eyes are always in the middle of the head and are thus considered to be the only reliable "landmark" in art. You compare everything from the eyes and only then you can see the proportions properly. If you don't align them then everything looks skewered (which of course is also worsened by the different angles).

I was mostly concerned with trying to find optimal placement to preserve overall scale of the character as well as the head size -- that extends also to the shoulders, arms and such. As a result, because the characters are shot at different angles the eyes don't line up, you're correct. That's because Isabela is "looking higher" than her human counterpart, as result of that eforementioned different camera placement.

For the sake of argument yes, it's possible to pull the part of picture that shows Isabela a few pixels down so their eyes line up. However since as you agreed this causes the bottom of her head land even further down i'm not sure if it makes any practical difference -- i don't think the effect can be dismissed as just a result of different camera angle, because different angle doesn't prevent us from taking note where the chin would end in a shot taken straight-on.

As I said above... I think you perceive the nose as too small due to the size of the jaw as opposed to the nose itself (protip: a proportional nose ends roughly where the jaw starts and the face starts narrowing, just below the cheekbone. Which it does in Isabela's case).

I consider the noses too small because if you take a typical face and draw a line from the eye level to the bottom of the head, then the point about right in the middle of his line determines placement of the area above the upper lip, with the bottom edge of the nose and the lip itself being at comparable distances on either side of this point.

This isn't the case with DA2 characters whose noses can be noticeably shorter (the mid point can be closer towards the upper lip) and i don't think the chin size can be blamed here, because this is more dependant on the overall size of the head, not on how large part of that head is taken by the chin.
 

Carver, being the most notable example, look very proportional in the knife throwinf scene in the trailer. His jaw looks a lot less pronounced there, as does Isabela's,

But Carver's head in that shot is like, 30 pixels large and heavily affected by camera's depth of field. The problems with his proportions become less pronounced at such range, just like it happens with anyone else. But if you enlarge that part of image then it becomes rather obvious it's the same Carver as seen on the other, close-up pictures.

Modifié par tmp7704, 31 octobre 2010 - 05:22 .

[Addai]

pizoxuat wrote...

Isabela has a very classic look. Comparing the proportion of her jaw here to Penelope Cruz you'll see it's not actually that large. She has a longer nose and a smaller mouth, but the jaw itself isn't overly large at all.

I notice a lot of people seem to make their female Wardens with the narrowest, pointiest jawline possible, so it may be that the people who post here have a very narrow definition of what a beautiful woman should look like. But I think Isabela is lovely and I am glad to see different face shapes beyond Slightly More Oval or Slightly More Heart-Shaped being proudly represented.

I wouldn't mind if it were the case of certain characters having them, as opposed to an overall design characteristic.