83 réponses à ce sujet

[Rahzar]

Power Cooldowns

ME1
Each power has separate (but really long) cooldowns.
Problem: long cooldowns for each power made it so that each power could only be used once or twice in a fight

ME2
After a power is used, all powers are on cooldown; the cooldown time is based on the power used.
Problem: sharing a cooldown often meant using one power way more than others

ME3 (my idea for combining how it was done in ME1 & ME2)
After a power is used, all powers would be on cooldown for around 2 - 3.5 seconds (it could start at around 2.5 - 3.5 seconds and then, with skills/powers, could be reduced to around 1 - 2.5 seconds).  Powers would also have separate individual cooldowns that are slightly longer (probably around 10 - 15 seconds,  and then reduced to around 8 - 10 seconds with skills/powers).  Ammo powers should have a global cooldown for their own group - you shouldn't have to wait between switching ammo to use another power. 
This is just an idea, I'm not absolutely convinced this is the best way to handle the power cooldown system, but it seems like it would balance out the issue. 

Modifié par Rahzar, 31 octobre 2010 - 05:13 .

[Oblarg]

Global cooldown needs to be removed entirely. It's a bad solution to a problem which wasn't all that terrible.

[sinosleep]

It would really depend on how well the powers could be balanced around the fact that there would be many more of them overlapping at a time.



For instance, in ME 1 singularity was already a pretty obscenely powerful ability, but when you could combine that with Liara's singularity, followed in quick succession by say 5 other powers while the singularity is still floating folks around it led to some pretty imbalanced gameplay.



I like the meshing of global and individual CDs in general just because it does handle the problem of one power taking priority over others, but it would definitely take some careful balancing for me to get behind it completely.

[AntiChri5]

In ME 1 you just cycle through your powers one after another.

[TelexFerra]

What about a biotic power/tech energy bar that recharges over time.

[lazuli]

TelexFerra wrote...

What about a biotic power/tech energy bar that recharges over time.

That would seem too drastically different from the first two for me.  I wouldn't mind grouped cooldowns, or cycling skills.  Grouping power cooldowns by the type of power they are (Biotic, Combat, Tech) wouldn't work due to the current class system.  There would need to be another classification.

[Oblarg]

AntiChri5 wrote...

In ME 1 you just cycle through your powers one after another.

And using warp (or reave) over and over again is somehow an improvement over that?

What they need to do is ditch the entire global cooldown system, and buff biotics back up to a reasonable level.  Yes, I realize they were overpowered in ME1, but more importantly they were visceral and satisfying and felt like just as much a weapon as the gun you were holding.  This was largely lost in ME2 - all the fun biotics no longer were fun.  You couldn't toss a group of geth into a wall twenty feet behind them and watch them crumple to the ground.  You couldn't lift an enemy up to the skies and watch him fall down to his death.  All you could do was disable an enemy that was already about to die.  What you were left with was a few damage abilities that you spammed every cooldown.  Warp was never a fun ability, neither in ME1 or ME2.  In fact, their own attempt to make it fun in ME2 (exploding other biotics) was more or less rendered useless by their own global cooldown system (and the fact that it didn't send anyone flying unless they were already about to die).  Another direct consequence of the global cooldown was the death of barrier.

The main reason for implementing the global cooldown system, I recall, is that biotics in ME1 felt too "bursty."  That is, you'd use all your powers in quick succession and then have a relatively long cooldown period in which you could do nothing but shoot.  There are many other solutions that could solve this problem without wrecking the flow of combat in the way the global cooldown did.  Consider the following system:

Each ability has two cooldowns: a relatively short cooldown (10 seconds or so) and a relatively long cooldown (30 second or more).  After the first cooldown, the ability becomes available for use, however its strength is weakened (still more powerful than ME2 biotics, though, at least in the case of throw and pull).  If you wait until the second cooldown, the ability becomes "supercharged" and is roughly as powerful as the biotics were in ME1.  This would allow more rapid use of biotics while keeping the viscerality of ME1.  It also gives you more numbers to tweak to balance the system.

In conjunction with this, the entire "you cannot pull/push/shockwave armored enemies" system would have to be ditched, as well - as long as that system is in place, biotics will not be useful.  It's simply neither fun nor a good system if you can only throw/shockwave/lift/slam/whatever an opponent that is already about to die.

[lazuli]

Oblarg wrote...
You couldn't toss a group of geth into a wall twenty feet behind them and watch them crumple to the ground. 

Physics damage did get unduly nerfed.

[ashwind]

Oblarg wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

In ME 1 you just cycle through your powers one after another.

And using warp (or reave) over and over again is somehow an improvement over that?

What they need to do is ditch the entire global cooldown system, and buff biotics back up to a reasonable level.  Yes, I realize they were overpowered in ME1, but more importantly they were visceral and satisfying and felt like just as much a weapon as the gun you were holding.  This was largely lost in ME2 - all the fun biotics no longer were fun.  You couldn't toss a group of geth into a wall twenty feet behind them and watch them crumple to the ground.  You couldn't lift an enemy up to the skies and watch him fall down to his death.  All you could do was disable an enemy that was already about to die.  What you were left with was a few damage abilities that you spammed every cooldown.  Warp was never a fun ability, neither in ME1 or ME2.  In fact, their own attempt to make it fun in ME2 (exploding other biotics) was more or less rendered useless by their own global cooldown system (and the fact that it didn't send anyone flying unless they were already about to die).  Another direct consequence of the global cooldown was the death of barrier.

The main reason for implementing the global cooldown system, I recall, is that biotics in ME1 felt too "bursty."  That is, you'd use all your powers in quick succession and then have a relatively long cooldown period in which you could do nothing but shoot.  There are many other solutions that could solve this problem without wrecking the flow of combat in the way the global cooldown did.  Consider the following system:

Each ability has two cooldowns: a relatively short cooldown (10 seconds or so) and a relatively long cooldown (30 second or more).  After the first cooldown, the ability becomes available for use, however its strength is weakened (still more powerful than ME2 biotics, though, at least in the case of throw and pull).  If you wait until the second cooldown, the ability becomes "supercharged" and is roughly as powerful as the biotics were in ME1.  This would allow more rapid use of biotics while keeping the viscerality of ME1.  It also gives you more numbers to tweak to balance the system.

In conjunction with this, the entire "you cannot pull/push/shockwave armored enemies" system would have to be ditched, as well - as long as that system is in place, biotics will not be useful.  It's simply neither fun nor a good system if you can only throw/shockwave/lift/slam/whatever an opponent that is already about to die.

If you do not like striping enemy defense, play Veteran. Hardcore and Insanity is meant to be more challenging.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/261/index/2841785
Adepts are still very capable of destroying their enemies with biotics if played right.

Since ME2 allows you to use squad ability directly from hotkey - you actually get to choose 3 powers to unleash at anytime. Hence, there is in a way 2 cooldowns already. Shepard's cooldown (primary-short) and Squad cooldown (secondary-long).

[sinosleep]

This whole "unless they were about to die" nonsense is just that, nonsense. Most enemies in the game are 1:1 defenses to health, with all of the health regeneration enemies (klixen, vorcha, krogans) actually having more health than defenses, and only elite mobs with more than 1:1. Combined with the fact that all the guns in the game are only keyed to defenses I've never understood how on earth this completely false outlook somehow manages to come up OVER AND OVER AND OVER again from the biotics are garbage crowd.

When enemies get down to health they don't just suddenly drop to the floor and die, in fact at that point weapons becomes LESS effective by virtue of losing all their multipliers. Enemies on health shouldn't be viewed as enemies that just magically drop dead all on their own or that would die quicker from gunfire because that's simply not the case by virtue of how the game is built.

Arguments like that are why I tend to dismiss a lot of posts from the biotics are crap crowd.

Modifié par sinosleep, 30 octobre 2010 - 05:45 .

[kstarler]

Both Ashwind and Sinosleep have great posts that I agree with in their entirety. If you don't want defenses, Bioware made different difficulty levels, and only the two highest have them on non-elite or non-boss type mobs. And elite and boss type mobs, as Sinosleep pointed out, have more health than defenses. That's why, on Insanity, with Heavy Singularity, Heavy Warp, and all the biotic upgrades, it still takes extra gunfire or another biotic ability after a warp bomb to kill them. And, in my opinion, that makes it all the more fun and satisfying to play a biotic in ME2.

Admittedly, when I first played the game as an adept, I was a little disappointed with the global cool down, but now that I've played it through a dozen or more times (still less than I played ME1), I actually like the global cool down more, because it turns it into a thinking game that requires some planning and strategy.

Edit: With all of the above stated, if Bioware decides to re-work the powers and cool downs for ME3, I'm sure it will be great. But if they don't change a thing, I'm sure it will still be great.

Modifié par kstarler, 30 octobre 2010 - 06:00 .

[Oblarg]

ashwind wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

In ME 1 you just cycle through your powers one after another.

And using warp (or reave) over and over again is somehow an improvement over that?

What they need to do is ditch the entire global cooldown system, and buff biotics back up to a reasonable level.  Yes, I realize they were overpowered in ME1, but more importantly they were visceral and satisfying and felt like just as much a weapon as the gun you were holding.  This was largely lost in ME2 - all the fun biotics no longer were fun.  You couldn't toss a group of geth into a wall twenty feet behind them and watch them crumple to the ground.  You couldn't lift an enemy up to the skies and watch him fall down to his death.  All you could do was disable an enemy that was already about to die.  What you were left with was a few damage abilities that you spammed every cooldown.  Warp was never a fun ability, neither in ME1 or ME2.  In fact, their own attempt to make it fun in ME2 (exploding other biotics) was more or less rendered useless by their own global cooldown system (and the fact that it didn't send anyone flying unless they were already about to die).  Another direct consequence of the global cooldown was the death of barrier.

The main reason for implementing the global cooldown system, I recall, is that biotics in ME1 felt too "bursty."  That is, you'd use all your powers in quick succession and then have a relatively long cooldown period in which you could do nothing but shoot.  There are many other solutions that could solve this problem without wrecking the flow of combat in the way the global cooldown did.  Consider the following system:

Each ability has two cooldowns: a relatively short cooldown (10 seconds or so) and a relatively long cooldown (30 second or more).  After the first cooldown, the ability becomes available for use, however its strength is weakened (still more powerful than ME2 biotics, though, at least in the case of throw and pull).  If you wait until the second cooldown, the ability becomes "supercharged" and is roughly as powerful as the biotics were in ME1.  This would allow more rapid use of biotics while keeping the viscerality of ME1.  It also gives you more numbers to tweak to balance the system.

In conjunction with this, the entire "you cannot pull/push/shockwave armored enemies" system would have to be ditched, as well - as long as that system is in place, biotics will not be useful.  It's simply neither fun nor a good system if you can only throw/shockwave/lift/slam/whatever an opponent that is already about to die.

If you do not like striping enemy defense, play Veteran. Hardcore and Insanity is meant to be more challenging.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/261/index/2841785
Adepts are still very capable of destroying their enemies with biotics if played right.

Since ME2 allows you to use squad ability directly from hotkey - you actually get to choose 3 powers to unleash at anytime. Hence, there is in a way 2 cooldowns already. Shepard's cooldown (primary-short) and Squad cooldown (secondary-long).

Being able to map multiple abilities has absolutely nothing to do with the efficacy of biotics.

The fact is, the global cooldown wrecks the synergy of warp if you only have one biotic in the squad, and even if you have two you can only really use it after you strip defenses anyway.

And even after you strip defenses, the powers in ME2 feel so amazingly lame that it makes me wonder if they were intentionally trying to force people to play the game as Gears of War.  My vanguard felt *powerful* when he used throw in ME1.  It felt absolutely pathetic in ME2.

[AntiChri5]

And using warp (or reave) over and over again is somehow an improvement over that?

Then you are doing it wrong.

In ME 2 you use different powers in different situations.

[Oblarg]

AntiChri5 wrote...

And using warp (or reave) over and over again is somehow an improvement over that?

Then you are doing it wrong.
In ME 2 you use different powers in different situations.

Find me a situation in which using throw or shockwave is a good idea in ME2, other than husk clearing (and even then you just spam pull on lower difficulties, or spam warp and then spam pull on higher difficulties).

All you do is warp spam until armor is gone, then pull.  The biotics are boring and weak in ME2, especially compared to how glorious they were in ME1.

[Kronner]

Global Cooldown was a good idea. It makes sense and the gameplay is much better. I hope ME3 keeps it that way too.

[AntiChri5]

Throw is great for unprotected enemies, particularly when they are standing near ledges and amazing when combined with Pull.

No other power has such good capability for instantly killing unprotected enemies.

Shockwave is a horrific abomination which crawled from the depths of hell specifically to annoy me. That doesn't say anything about the CD system, it is simply a crappy power.

[kstarler]

Oblarg, if you are interested in good uses of Throw and Pull, and other biotic powers, you really should follow the link that Ashwind posted. Bozorgmher has put together a great video called Banzai Biotics which meshes video from several plays through to game to demonstrate what can be done using various weapon setups and powers. In particular, he uses throw (aimed at the enemy's feet) to great effect.

Granted, he is a very good player, but with practice, the things that he does in the video aren't so hard to pull off. But that is leaving this discussion for another one.

Back on topic, if Bioware were to re-work the whole system, I would like the idea of a having a global cooldown of about 3 seconds (maybe start at 3 and work it down as you level/upgrade), and then having a longer cool down for stronger abilities, so say you can use Singularity (6 second cool down), wait 3 seconds, Warp Bomb (3 second cool down), wait 3 more seconds, and Singularity again. Of course, those times are probably not well balanced, just thrown out as an idea. And, above all I stress that even if Bioware changes nothing for ME3, I'd be happy.

Edit: Upon review, I think I just described essentially the system as it works now, since I believe those are the base times. The only difference is that you could warp bomb a singularity a couple of seconds faster under that proposal, so power cool down times would need to be greater than I proposed.

Modifié par kstarler, 30 octobre 2010 - 07:37 .

[Oblarg]

kstarler wrote...

Oblarg, if you are interested in good uses of Throw and Pull, and other biotic powers, you really should follow the link that Ashwind posted. Bozorgmher has put together a great video called Banzai Biotics which meshes video from several plays through to game to demonstrate what can be done using various weapon setups and powers. In particular, he uses throw (aimed at the enemy's feet) to great effect.

Granted, he is a very good player, but with practice, the things that he does in the video aren't so hard to pull off. But that is leaving this discussion for another one.

Back on topic, if Bioware were to re-work the whole system, I would like the idea of a having a global cooldown of about 3 seconds (maybe start at 3 and work it down as you level/upgrade), and then having a longer cool down for stronger abilities, so say you can use Singularity (6 second cool down), wait 3 seconds, Warp Bomb (3 second cool down), wait 3 more seconds, and Singularity again. Of course, those times are probably not well balanced, just thrown out as an idea. And, above all I stress that even if Bioware changes nothing for ME3, I'd be happy.

That's just the thing, though - in ME1, throw would pick up an enemy and throw it across the room.  There was no "aim at the feet" nonsense, it was pure, unadulterated awesome.  Yes, it probably could have been rebalanced a bit, but they completely removed the spirit of biotics in ME2.  They took what was formerly a primary weapon and turned it into a minimally useful temporary disable.  Biotics no longer feel powerful, they feel just as bland as every other ability in ME2, including the tech abilities.  Biotics had character in ME1, they were fun to use and they were intense and visceral.  The global cooldown does nothing but add to this problem.

Edit:  In fact, I'm watching this video, and all I see is pull warp pull warp pull warp, and you have to use two squad biotics to do it.  The global cooldown encourages this type of gameplay - repetetive and dull, because you are presented with the same problem every 3-6 seconds: "use ability x, or use ability y."  Repeat for however many biotics you have in the squad.  Putting all abilities on the same cooldown inherently leads to favoring certain abilities over all others given the situation.  That leads to repetetive gameplay.

This entire thing is indicative of the switch towards twitch-based gameplay rather than tactical gameplay.  If you want to base your gameplay on reflexes, it has to have a certain degree of repetition to allow the player do play completely from reflex.  This is, more or less, a complete flip from what they were aiming for with ME1 combat, and it's not a direction I like, at all.

Modifié par Oblarg, 30 octobre 2010 - 07:41 .

[kstarler]

Oblarg wrote...

That's just the thing, though - in ME1, throw would pick up an enemy and throw it across the room.  There was no "aim at the feet" nonsense, it was pure, unadulterated awesome.  Yes, it probably could have been rebalanced a bit, but they completely removed the spirit of biotics in ME2.  They took what was formerly a primary weapon and turned it into a minimally useful temporary disable.  Biotics no longer feel powerful, they feel just as bland as every other ability in ME2, including the tech abilities.  Biotics had character in ME1, they were fun to use and they were intense and visceral.  The global cooldown does nothing but add to this problem.

We'll just have to disagree on that, because I think the exact opposite. I have seen heavy throw do exactly as you describe in ME2, even without aiming at the feet. It's simply more effect to do so at lower levels of throw.

[AntiChri5]

That's just the thing, though - in ME1, throw would pick up an enemy and throw it across the room.  There was no "aim at the feet" nonsense, it was pure, unadulterated awesome.  Yes, it probably could have been rebalanced a bit, but they completely removed the spirit of biotics in ME2.  They took what was formerly a primary weapon and turned it into a minimally useful temporary disable.  Biotics no longer feel powerful, they feel just as bland as every other ability in ME2, including the tech abilities.  Biotics had character in ME1, they were fun to use and they were intense and visceral.  The global cooldown does nothing but add to this problem.

That sounds to me like "I never used to have to try to win, i used to just press one button and watch the blue flash kill everything. Now i have to try, plan, use strategy and have skill. I don't feel superior to the other classes anymore".

Sorry if this comes off as insulting, thats just what i saw in your posts.

I really really like that using biotics is now more careful, strategic and skillful.

[Oblarg]

kstarler wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

That's just the thing, though - in ME1, throw would pick up an enemy and throw it across the room.  There was no "aim at the feet" nonsense, it was pure, unadulterated awesome.  Yes, it probably could have been rebalanced a bit, but they completely removed the spirit of biotics in ME2.  They took what was formerly a primary weapon and turned it into a minimally useful temporary disable.  Biotics no longer feel powerful, they feel just as bland as every other ability in ME2, including the tech abilities.  Biotics had character in ME1, they were fun to use and they were intense and visceral.  The global cooldown does nothing but add to this problem.

We'll just have to disagree on that, because I think the exact opposite. I have seen heavy throw do exactly as you describe in ME2, even without aiming at the feet. It's simply more effect to do so at lower levels of throw.

Heavy throw never comes close to the max ranked throw in ME1.  This isn't a matter of opinion - go max throw in ME1, and you'll find you can take out entire clusters of enemies with it.  Biotics are significantly toned down in ME2, and geared towards a "use a weaker power more often and in a more reliable fashion" gameplay mentality that goes hand in hand with the shift towards Gears of War-esque shooting.

AntiChri5 wrote...

That's
just the thing, though - in ME1, throw would pick up an enemy and throw
it across the room.  There was no "aim at the feet" nonsense, it was
pure, unadulterated awesome.  Yes, it probably could have been
rebalanced a bit, but they completely removed the spirit of biotics in
ME2.  They took what was formerly a primary weapon and turned it into a
minimally useful temporary disable.  Biotics no longer feel powerful,
they feel just as bland as every other ability in ME2, including the
tech abilities.  Biotics had character in ME1, they were fun to use and
they were intense and visceral.  The global cooldown does nothing but
add to this problem.

That sounds to me like "I never
used to have to try to win, i used to just press one button and watch
the blue flash kill everything. Now i have to try, plan, use strategy
and have skill. I don't feel superior to the other classes anymore".
Sorry if this comes off as insulting, thats just what i saw in your posts.
I really really like that using biotics is now more careful, strategic and skillful.

Oh, I agree that they needed to be rebalanced, but what was done in ME2 was not a rebalance, it was a complete rework of the mentality of the system, which is what you're missing.  The system has been reworked from a tactical focus to a more standard shooter mentality, and with that change biotics had to be toned down to fit into the rest of the combat system.  I dislike this change, and really hope they pull the combat back towards the ME1 in ME3.

Modifié par Oblarg, 30 octobre 2010 - 07:45 .

[Nezzer]

There should be separate cooldowns for tech and biotic powers and it would be perfect, simple as that.

[Oblarg]

Nezzer wrote...

There should be separate cooldowns for tech and biotic powers and it would be perfect, simple as that.

If they decide to try to make ME3 a shooter as they did ME2, this would be the route to go, as well as taking certain abilities (*cough* barrier *cough*) off the global cooldown entirely and giving them independant cooldowns.

I still think they should pull back away from twitch-based shooter gameplay - ME is not, and should not be Gears of War.

Modifié par Oblarg, 30 octobre 2010 - 07:56 .

[AntiChri5]

The system in ME 2 is far more tactical. In every way i can think of.

@Nezzer: Makes sense lore-wise, but would make Sentinals absurdly overpowered.

[Oblarg]

AntiChri5 wrote...

The system in ME 2 is far more tactical. In every way i can think of.
@Nezzer: Makes sense lore-wise, but would make Sentinals absurdly overpowered.

I don't think you know what tactical means.