83 réponses à ce sujet

[Oblarg]

Louis_Cypher wrote...

Oblarg wrote...
In addition to this, I'd simply like to be able to have the biotics feel powerful once in a while.  Not as absurdly overpowered as they were in the first game, but powerful enough to feel satisfied when you throw a group of enemies, even if you can only do that once every few minutes.  I've said this about a million times, but it's true - balance and tactics aside, the biotics were simply more visceral and fun to use in ME1.

I think this would be good, but a few things to add:

1) Make sure tech powers and combat powers are buffed up sufficiently to match.  If player skills are balanced and buffed appropriately, it's simply a matter of balancing the enemies.  Tech powers were rather underwhelming in ME1, compared to biotics, especially against organics.  Combat powers were certainly powerful enough (cough, Immunity, cough), but had other problems.  Other problems like:
2) Powerful is not the same as visceral or interesting.  A moderate amount of power may be required, but it doesn't automatically work that way.  The worst offender of this was ME1 Immunity.  It made you essentially invincible at higher levels, and it was entirely possible to have 100% uptime with the right equipment and skills.  But it was the opposite of exciting: it changed the most important aspect of survival from cover and tactics to a chore of maintaining uptime.

I agree completely.  There's a lot to be said for making powers fun and satisfying to use, in addition to balancing them.  In the process of rebalancing biotics, ME2 completely missed the mark on this.

[formshifter]

What's this about punishing you for using the wrong power in ME2?

That was a *very* good joke

The only times I suffered some sort of consequence was when I charged in, or got flanked. Even then, the "consequence" was to have to turn around to shoot some guys, and afterwards hide for a few seconds while my shields recharged.



some of ME's powers (Immunity, I'm looking at you) were over powered to the max. However, in ME2, biotics and techies *did* lose their coolness. The tech powers used to be able to give you burst damage, and often provided a useful benefit (like disabling biotics when you fought commandos). The biotic powers were *useful*. First of all, your armor WON"T stop me from telekinetically grabbing you and throwing you across the room, or protect you from a singularity,l or anything else. It doesn't make sense that protective barriers would stop you (especially when you consider that shields and barriers are the same damn thing (ME codex, btw).



ME2 made characters less useful for their powers, and focused on combat. My Vanguard wasn't a close ranger with powers, he was just a shock trooper. In ME I could use throw after getting close to give myself space, I could Lift enemies and charge in, etc. My vanguard could choose tactics! Here, it's all: charge in, shoot shoot shoot until everyhting is DEAD.



The techies are basically the same. none of the advantages that ME Techies had of providing combat disadvantages to your enemies, just some damage and that's it.





saying that ME 2 is more tactical is a joke. You can beat even Insanity by bulling through, using tactics just makes things ridiculously easy

Also, the squadmate AI for ME2 is a JOKE. In ME I could charge in to a fight and know my teammates would back me up. In ME2, it's like I'm completely alone. they only do *a little* damage. the best ones are the snipers, cause the Mantis (and Widowmaker for Legion) has a *good* chance of killing the targets.



I, for one, vote that the devs use the AI from Republic Commandos for your squad

[Dominator24]

Kronner wrote...

Global Cooldown was a good idea. It makes sense and the gameplay is much better. I hope ME3 keeps it that way too.

Oh really? plz tell me how much sense it makes to tie biotic power
coldown with tech power or ammo power?? Because I don't see it, and this concept is
idiotic to me. I think every group of powers should have its coldown as a group. Ammo, Tech, Biotic imo.

[Rahzar]

Well I definitely agree that ammo powers should have a global cooldown for their own group.

However, I still like my original idea about power cooldowns the best.  A global cooldown (probably starting at 3-3.5 seconds and shortened to 1.5-2.5 seconds with skills/powers) for biotic/tech powers along with slightly longer individual cooldowns (10-15 seconds) would work the best imo.  I haven't really felt convinced by anyone's arguments here to change my idea very much, it still seems like the best solution so far. 

Please read my original post that started this topic if you haven't already.

[kalle90]

Rahzar wrote...
A global cooldown (probably starting at 3-3.5 seconds and shortened to 1.5-2.5 seconds with skills/powers) for biotic/tech powers along with slightly longer individual cooldowns (10-15 seconds) would work the best imo. 

Why is that?

I'd imagine it'd only frustrate me. If Warp is the most useful power I could use in the situation I'd just have to wait longer to use it.

This is a system combining ME1 and ME2 but I didn't see ME1 did it wrong. Being able to spam 80% Immunity every 10 seconds was a different issue.

[Rahzar]

By "slightly longer" individual cooldowns I meant slightly longer than the global cooldown, and I'm not sure if 10-15 seconds for the individual cooldowns is exactly how long they should be, that was just a number I kinda threw out there. Plus, if you want to use your most useful power more often, my system would allow you to do that more than ME1's system because the cooldown for each individual power is still shorter than in ME1 (well I meant it to be anyway, I don't remember the exact lengths of the cooldowns on ME1).

Modifié par Rahzar, 31 octobre 2010 - 05:30 .

[primero holodon]

they should just remove global cooldown. It took away my ability to combine powers which was what I enjoyed about being a non soldier. while they're at it I'd like to see the old tech powers that didn't do much damage but could hinder and incapacitate enemies. in ME2 I stopped feeling like the tech/biotic support guy and instead felt kinda like a soldier who forgot to bring the weapons to the battle

[Rahzar]

I think they wanted biotic/tech Shepards to be able to do damage without totally relying on their allies. However, implementing a larger variety of powers to choose from, including ones that are more supportive (disabling,etc.) along with the ones that are more aggressive (damage,etc.), could bring back what made Engineers, Adepts, and Sentinels good support without removing their potential to play more aggressive roles.

Modifié par Rahzar, 01 novembre 2010 - 12:09 .

[TelexFerra]

What about recharges based on power level. For level 1 powers, they're weaker so they have a short-ish individual recharge time. For level 2 powers, using the powers will lock out ALL powers for the same amount of time. For level 3 powers, usage of the power would lock out all powers for the same amount of time for 1 and 2, but would also require an additional amount of time for the individual power to recharge. For level 4 powers, only the individual power is locked out for about 1.5 times longer than it was in level 1. (This rewards the player for fully evolving the power)



thoughts?

[Oblarg]

TelexFerra wrote...

What about recharges based on power level. For level 1 powers, they're weaker so they have a short-ish individual recharge time. For level 2 powers, using the powers will lock out ALL powers for the same amount of time. For level 3 powers, usage of the power would lock out all powers for the same amount of time for 1 and 2, but would also require an additional amount of time for the individual power to recharge. For level 4 powers, only the individual power is locked out for about 1.5 times longer than it was in level 1. (This rewards the player for fully evolving the power)

thoughts?

You'd need to really ramp up how much the power improves each level for this to even have the potential of working, and even then the global cooldown still sucks.

[TelexFerra]

Oblarg wrote...

TelexFerra wrote...

What about recharges based on power level. For level 1 powers, they're weaker so they have a short-ish individual recharge time. For level 2 powers, using the powers will lock out ALL powers for the same amount of time. For level 3 powers, usage of the power would lock out all powers for the same amount of time for 1 and 2, but would also require an additional amount of time for the individual power to recharge. For level 4 powers, only the individual power is locked out for about 1.5 times longer than it was in level 1. (This rewards the player for fully evolving the power)

thoughts?

You'd need to really ramp up how much the power improves each level for this to even have the potential of working, and even then the global cooldown still sucks.

True, I found the differences in level in ME2 to be inconsequential.

[Jammonstrald]

primero holodon wrote...
in ME2 I stopped feeling like the tech/biotic support guy and instead felt kinda like a soldier who forgot to bring the weapons to the battle

I'm a little late to the discussion, but I was scrounging around for some info on possibly modding out the global cooldown from the game and this statement just sums up every single negative sentiment I have regarding ME2's skill system vs. ME1's. Beautifully succinct. Had to quote it.

Modifié par Jammonstrald, 11 décembre 2010 - 09:16 .

[MassEffect762]

Things that left a bad taste in my ME2 experience.



- Cover system: wash rinse repeat, just as redundant as immunity but not as fun.(shoot and spam)

- Universal cool-downs: C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER.

- Thermal clips on ground: Needless distraction.

- Ammo powers: Not as interesting as upgrading through inventory. Takes away from skill tree.



That's just how I see it.

[Sable Phoenix]

Oblarg wrote...

Global cooldown needs to be removed entirely. It's a bad solution to a problem which wasn't all that terrible.

/endthread

[Sable Phoenix]

MassEffect762 wrote...

Things that left a bad taste in my ME2 experience.

- Cover system: wash rinse repeat, just as redundant as immunity but not as fun.(shoot and spam)
- Universal cool-downs: C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER.
- Thermal clips on ground: Needless distraction.
- Ammo powers: Not as interesting as upgrading through inventory. Takes away from skill tree.

That's just how I see it.

I also agree with everything here.

/endthreadagain

[AdmiralCheez]

I liked the global cooldown system way more than ME1's system, personally. Made for more balanced gameplay. The "no powers on protected enemies" thing was a bit annoying, but only a problem if you played higher than veteran. Perhaps if the effect of the power was simply reduced instead, as opposed to nerfing it entirely...

[jwalker]

[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...

I liked the global cooldown system way more than ME1's system, personally. Made for more balanced gameplay.
[/quote]

Me too.
And ME2 gameplay >>>>>> ME1 gameplay, IMO.
Of course, there's always room for improvement.

[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...
The "no powers on protected enemies" thing was a bit annoying, but only a problem if you played higher than veteran. Perhaps if the effect of the power was simply reduced instead, as opposed to nerfing it entirely...[/quote]
[/quote]

Not entirely true.... Reave does work on shields 

[Razor_Zeng]

Id change the system up so powers still worked on people with defenses up. Something like this:



Throw

100% defences - would knock someone over and do maybe 5% damage (good for losing a bit of heat)

50% defences - would push them back a bit further and do 20% damage

0% defences - normal throw damage



This would mean the power still does something to them just not maxed out damage. Would also allow a little bit of crowd control for those that want it.

[Praetor Knight]

The Global Cooldown is fine.



But one thing that was mentioned that is interesting to at least consider, is having Biotics separate from Tech and Combat powers.

[Archereon]

Oblarg wrote...

Global cooldown needs to be removed entirely. It's a bad solution to a problem which wasn't all that terrible.

Why not just add some sort of energy bar that powers are cast off of?

For infiltrators, that could mean that cloaking has a duration determined not by a fixed time limit, but by how much energy they have for example...

Similarly, certain timed powers could have their duration tied to an energy bar, and be deactivated at the player's choice... Oh the possibilities.

[Omega-202]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

The Global Cooldown is fine.

But one thing that was mentioned that is interesting to at least consider, is having Biotics separate from Tech and Combat powers.

But how would that not overpower the hybrid classes and punish the pure classes?  Sentinels would be gods and Adepts would be absolute jokes.  

[Archereon]

Omega-202 wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

The Global Cooldown is fine.

But one thing that was mentioned that is interesting to at least consider, is having Biotics separate from Tech and Combat powers.

But how would that not overpower the hybrid classes and punish the pure classes?  Sentinels would be gods and Adepts would be absolute jokes.  

Give them shorter cooldowns, and give them more powerful powers?

[Praetor Knight]

Omega-202 wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

The Global Cooldown is fine.

But one thing that was mentioned that is interesting to at least consider, is having Biotics separate from Tech and Combat powers.

But how would that not overpower the hybrid classes and punish the pure classes?  Sentinels would be gods and Adepts would be absolute jokes.  

Sorry, I assumed balancing would be automatic, ME2 biotics seemed a bit nerfed.

But biotics are also taxing on the user, which was why I thought it would be interesting to at least consider.

[Rogue Eagle]

Biotics feel too weak in ME2. Sure you can win the game with them, but you don't get that feeling of being 'all powerful'. Even Jack is more powerful in cutscenes.

[Epic777]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

The Global Cooldown is fine.

But one thing that was mentioned that is interesting to at least consider, is having Biotics separate from Tech and Combat powers.

Counterpoint: Sentinel will become way too powerful.