83 réponses à ce sujet

[LogosDiablo]

AntiChri5 wrote...

@Nezzer: Makes sense lore-wise, but would make Sentinals absurdly overpowered.

Perhaps I'm retarded, but how would this be at all helpful to the five classes that are not a tech/biotic cross? This only changes things for characters that have access to both types of abilities. If you include your "extra" you can earn, that's still just one extra power. Not a sufficient change, I think, and one that heavily favors one class.

[Omega-202]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Sorry, I assumed balancing would be automatic, ME2 biotics seemed a bit nerfed.

But biotics are also taxing on the user, which was why I thought it would be interesting to at least consider.

But how would you balance them other than making the individual cooldowns massive for Sentinels, which would cause its own set of complaints?

Yes, Biotics are taxing on the user, but it can be argued that excessive use of an omni-tool would have an effect on the use of biotics and vice versa.

We know that using biotics causes an electrical build-up in the user's body.  Its the reason that the codex says that a biotic needs to keep themselves grounded and its related to how ships need to discharge into a planets atmosphere.  Wouldn't this charge build-up be something that could hinder an Omni-tool until it was dispersed?

And on the flip side, using an Omni-tool to produce a fire ball, or a freeze ray or a giant electric pulse would seem like its energy intensive.  Wouldn't it draw power from your suit, directing it away from your Bio-Amp?  

The fact that they run on the same cooldown makes sense in the lore, so saying otherwise is a weak argument for a flawed system.  

[LogosDiablo]

My biggest problem with the way that tech/biotics changed in ME2 is thus:

In ME1, as an adept, I felt like biotics were my primary weapon, and guns my secondary. In ME2, it feels as though, as an adept, biotics are my secondary weapon, and guns my primary.
Balancing does need to the be addressed, but ME1 felt right. ME2 feels forced for the sake of balance. If I play an Infiltrator or Vanguard, or whatever, it's because I don't want to be the standard shooter protagonist. I want to be something different.

My proposal, is thus:

As ME2 did already happen, it will be difficult to dismiss the system, but I propose an alternate hybrid system to the op's.

Put two related abilities on a shared cooldown. An example would be Pull and Throw or Incinerate and Cryo Blast. Thus each character could have 2-4 different cooldowns (assuming additional abilities in ME3), but still be forced to be judicious with decisions. Shepard would have even more.

I do agree that ME2's system fits lore better than ME1's, however, my system could easily be rationalized with new L6 implants that compartmentalize different kinds of biotic uses and omni-tools designed for extreme combat multi-tasking. Combat classes - particularly soldier - could be powered to up to match by increasing weapon damage or decreasing damage taken, or some other clever thing Bioware comes up with.

Just my two cents.

Modifié par LogosDiablo, 12 décembre 2010 - 08:47 .

[Praetor Knight]

Omega-202 wrote...

But how would you balance them other than making the individual cooldowns massive for Sentinels, which would cause its own set of complaints?

Yes, Biotics are taxing on the user, but it can be argued that excessive use of an omni-tool would have an effect on the use of biotics and vice versa.

We know that using biotics causes an electrical build-up in the user's body.  Its the reason that the codex says that a biotic needs to keep themselves grounded and its related to how ships need to discharge into a planets atmosphere.  Wouldn't this charge build-up be something that could hinder an Omni-tool until it was dispersed?

As you say, it is not clear how shielded an omni-tool is for a Sentinel, so one possibility to handle hybrid classes is to favor either stronger biotics,  tech or combat powers, which gameplay wise could be demonstrated in differing cooldown or power damage variables.

So, for example, a Sentinel's class Passive could provide a greater variety than what we have seen in ME2 for ME3, whereas a strength in biotic ability would then limit the strength in tech ability, due to the static build up.

Maybe instead of having a choice of two lvl 4 evolutions there were four?

And on the flip side, using an Omni-tool to produce a fire ball, or a freeze ray or a giant electric pulse would seem like its energy intensive.  Wouldn't it draw power from your suit, directing it away from your Bio-Amp?  

The fact that they run on the same cooldown makes sense in the lore, so saying otherwise is a weak argument for a flawed system.  

The same can apply in the inverse for a hybrid class, where a focus in tech powers can limit how strong the biotic abilities could be. so that the tech equipment does not malfunction in combat.


The balancing would factor in how all of the classes and viable permutations work, with the expectation that new powers will be introduced in ME3 (ideally with ammo powers outside of class powers).

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Biotics are not weak in ME2, you just need to actually think a bit to use them. There are enough video links on this forum to prove this.

In ME2, spamming the same ability over and over again is fine if you are a class with only 1-2 actual powers, like the soldier. On a class like the adept, single power spamming to the exclusion of all else is a sure way to lose. This has nothing to do with global cooldowns, it only has to do with a player's own ability to play the game.

Tactical play means finding ways to create advantage within a set of restraints. Nothing more, nothing less. This is totally dependent on the player and does not change whether there is global cooldown or not.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 12 décembre 2010 - 09:22 .

[Praetor Knight]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Biotics are not weak in ME2, you just need to actually think a bit to use them. There are enough video links on this forum to prove this.

In ME2, spamming the same ability over and over again is fine if you are a class with only 1-2 actual powers, like the soldier. On a class like the adept, single power spamming to the exclusion of all else is a sure way to lose. This has nothing to do with global cooldowns, it only has to do with a player's own ability to play the game.

Tactical play means finding ways to create advantage within a set of restraints. Nothing more, nothing less. This is totally dependent on the player and does not change whether there is global cooldown or not.

K, what do you think 'bout hybrids? or potential class expansions?

It's mere speculation either way.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

I'd say I like what BW's done already and I'd trust them with any kind of expansion they might choose to make. If ME2's shown anything, it's that the current system already allows for a surprising level of customization within and between the basic classes. Again, any expansion would need to be checked with proper balancing. However, the possibilities are there, even with something as simple as what you suggested: having 3-4 ability evolutions instead of 2.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 12 décembre 2010 - 09:48 .

[Praetor Knight]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

I'd say I like what BW's done already and I'd trust them with any kind of expansion they might choose to make. If ME2's shown anything, it's that the current system already allows for a surprising level of customization within and between the basic classes. Again, any expansion would need to be checked with proper balancing. However, the possibilities are there, even with something as simple as what you suggested: having 3-4 ability evolutions instead of 2.

Then I'd say we are on the same page.

The problem will be the wait.

[Vena_86]

In my opinion the global cool-down is not bad by default. The problems are other factors.
Higher difficulty changes what layers (armor/shields) enemies have which completely destroys the balance between powers, making some more usefull and others almost useless and guns progressively more important.
-> Higher difficulty should change the strength of each layer but all difficulties need to have their enemies designed in the same balanced way. Also, the basic health should be increased while the deffensive layers (in most cases) need some reduction, so that there is more room for biotic powers and specially combos such as pull+warp, which is cool but not rewarding at the moment.

And ammo powers should not have been powers in the first place. It makes no sense, the implementation is tedious for the player and they are integrated into the global cool-down which makes no sense as well.
-> Ammo as weapon mods would work much better and make more sense.
The actual effects of ammo in ME2 is very well done.

If polished and balanced right the global power cool-down has the potential to be better for the overall gameplay than individual cool-downs. However, as it stands right now, neither ME2 nor ME1 have the upper hand for that matter.

Modifié par Vena_86, 12 décembre 2010 - 10:08 .