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Mass Effect 2 and RPG Genre


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#51
Oblarg

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Lumikki wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

One of the main complaints along these lines, which I agree with, is that the inventory and level up systems should have been streamlined, not gutted. Gear progression, at least for me, is an integral part of the RPG experience, and the planet scanning for generic +10% damage upgrades in ME2 really cheapened that experience for me. Part of the fun of an RPG is finding gear on your way through the game and building each character using gear and level ups to exactly how you want them. This was more or less absent from ME2. Yes, the ME1 inventory was absurdly cluttered, but that's because of the large numbers of duplicate items and the ridiculously large item drop rate, not due to the fact that inventories are a bad design choice.

I agree and disagree.

ME1 inventory system was badly done, but that's not only reason why it doesn't fit in Mass Effects. Hole problem starts from looting system. I mean looting induvidual items is what cause the hole problem. ME2 had totally different way to do looting system and that changed hole consept of "inventory" as how it works. Why it was done?

ME1 you loot induvidual items, what without exemption allways cause garbageman rummage in the trash and scrap yard symptoms. That's how traditional RPG looting works. This cause huge inventories, what requires item sorting system, because other ways player is drowning huge amount of junk items. This is unavoidable consequence of this kind of systems. More items (customation) game has more problems it creates for player. This often also leeds inventory limits and player is forced to clean up inventories or waste time when selecting loot. Often selecting loot isn't even usefull, because games requires selling those junk items to get money to buy what player really needs. My point here is hole problem starts from looting and all the consequences from there are unavoidable. Moe customation you want in that system, more problems you also have and focus is more in items, not in playing in story.

Some players think this is okey to have induvidual items and inventory. I disagree because Mass Effect is build very cinematic impression gameplay, so item management ways is more like what traditional RPG's often are, isn't fitting well in Mass Effects. Traditional RPG way turns the main focus of the game from cinematic impression to stats and item managements. So, that's reason why ME2 item handling is better, it was just little too limited (too little customation) in ME2, but the way it's done, fits better to Mass Effect. Same way that rat to god progression isn't best for Mass Effect story, because story doesn't support it. It's like forcing traditional RPG system to inside something what isn't like that, so it's better to try find RPG system what fits the nature of the game better. People are mostly annoyed to ME2 because it was so limited, but that's not systems fault. It was develoeprs fault as they simplifyed too much and left alot of what was good out of it. Base system is still fine, it just need to be expanded, so that players have more choises and those choises means more.

There is no point to go back for garbageman rummage of trash style. That's not the style of Mass Effect.


I see your point, but I disagree.  Even with the bloated inventory, much of the fun in ME1 (especially for my first few playthroughs before the Spectre gear became available) was buying new weapons and armor on each planet.  That's what I enjoy in RPGs, and something I greatly missed in ME2.

#52
kalle90

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wookieeassassin wrote...
So having said that, I'm not sure whether or not weapon accuracy as a skill should be reintroduced.

However, the rest of the things like being able to loot, having to actually develop a skill to hack, charm/intimidate people in conversations, etc. definitely should be in in some way.


If the skill tree has 4 steps - definitely. It wouldn't really be tedious for anyone but it would allow more customization.

Plus I definitely want the hacking skills back so I don't have to be the one hacking. Most of the time I'd want my squadmates to handle it

#53
Lumikki

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Oblarg wrote...

I see your point, but I disagree.  Even with the bloated inventory, much of the fun in ME1 (especially for my first few playthroughs before the Spectre gear became available) was buying new weapons and armor on each planet.  That's what I enjoy in RPGs, and something I greatly missed in ME2.

Buying new gear is still possible even in ME2, developers just did not do it or actually it was pretty much joke in ME2.

In ME1 I hated all the inventory handling, I hated selling alot of junk, I hated cleaning inventories, I hated be forced to loot everyting, because maybe there was something what I can use and it was the way get money. You call this FUN?

I would like more get  from loot what I want / need and buy the rest from money I have got.

Modifié par Lumikki, 30 octobre 2010 - 07:01 .


#54
Oblarg

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kalle90 wrote...

wookieeassassin wrote...
So having said that, I'm not sure whether or not weapon accuracy as a skill should be reintroduced.

However, the rest of the things like being able to loot, having to actually develop a skill to hack, charm/intimidate people in conversations, etc. definitely should be in in some way.


If the skill tree has 4 steps - definitely. It wouldn't really be tedious for anyone but it would allow more customization.

Plus I definitely want the hacking skills back so I don't have to be the one hacking. Most of the time I'd want my squadmates to handle it


4 steps is a bit low.  I'd say around 10 steps per skill and 6-7 skills per character (no more for Shepard than for his squadmates, please) would be about right.  The main thing is limiting the number of skill points.  If you can fill up most of the skill tree, the skill tree is a failure.

Lumikki wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

I see your
point, but I disagree.  Even with the bloated inventory, much of the fun
in ME1 (especially for my first few playthroughs before the Spectre
gear became available) was buying new weapons and armor on each planet.
 That's what I enjoy in RPGs, and something I greatly missed in
ME2.

Buying new gear is still possible even in ME2, developers just did not do it or actually it was pretty much joke in ME2.

I
hated all the inventory handling, I hated selling alot of junk, I hated
cleaning inventories, I hated be forced to loot everyting, because
maybe there was something what I can use and it was the way get money.
You call this FUN?

I would like more get  from loot what I want and buy the rest from money I have got.


They probably could have cut back on the lockboxes in ME1, but most of the looting was automatic.  The main problem with the ME1 inventory was the quantity of items and the lack of variation.  I found gear progression in ME1 to be fun despite all that, yes.  I found it to be overwhelmingly boring and tedious in ME2, mainly due to it being directly tied to the planet scanning mechanic, which should be scrapped completely.

Modifié par Oblarg, 30 octobre 2010 - 07:01 .


#55
ArcanistLibram

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Inventory is not an RPG element and skills trees that increase a character's capability by 2% per point are most definitely not an RPG element.

#56
Oblarg

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ArcanistLibram wrote...

Inventory is not an RPG element and skills trees that increase a character's capability by 2% per point are most definitely not an RPG element.


...

This post is so incredibly dumb that I don't even know where to start with it.

#57
wookieeassassin

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Yeah, if you can max out every skill in a skill tree (i.e. not having to choose between skills) then the skill tree is too limited.



Arcanis: Are you seriously saying inventory and skill trees are not RPG elements? Everyone needs to quit talking about "pen and paper RPGS" and whatever the heck else you are talking about/trying to define what an RPG is in theory and look at what most people consider an RPG VIDEO GAME. We are not talking about pen and paper RPGS, so everyone forget about them.



Inventory is an RPG element in every RPG I've ever played, even RPG/FPS or RPG/TPS hybrids. Mass Effect 1 had an inventory. STALKER: Shadow of Chernobyl had an inventory. You have a limited inventory and have to choose what to keep and choose what to sell. If you really want a lot of extra money you go around searching for dropped gear, whatever and then take it to a store and sell it. You can have inventories in other games that aren't necessarily RPGs, but pretty much every RPG that I know of has one.



A 2% increase isn't very much per skill point, I agree, but if you max out whatever skill that is you end up with a 30% increase from the beginning of the game. If the percentage per skill point were higher you'd just have the health/defenses of your enemies going up by the same amount as the game progresses. Again, every RPG that I know of has a skill tree.



Some games like the Legend of Zelda series have side quests, etc. to do but there is no inventory and there are no skills to upgrade. Therefore, I consider the LoZ series a group of action adventure games, not RPGs.

#58
kalle90

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Oblarg wrote...
4 steps is a bit low.  I'd say around 10 steps per skill and 6-7 skills per character (no more for Shepard than for his squadmates, please) would be about right.  The main thing is limiting the number of skill points.  If you can fill up most of the skill tree, the skill tree is a failure.


Not every skill needs the same amount of steps. For weapon skills it isn't that important to have 2% increases. For some other skills 6-10 sounds good though.

Weapon level 0 = low accuracy, big and long recoil, slow loading...

Some other people are talking about this: I can't see how ME2 has more meaningful steps. Mostly my priorities are to open every power and then max them in the order of usefulness. Levels 2 and 3 mostly just give 1 second or 10% increases

#59
wookieeassassin

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Everyone, just listen. Mass Effect 2 still has character development, dialogue trees, etc. It just reduced/gutted the skill tree, inventory and looting aspects of an RPG.



Heck, any time I play an RPG I spend quite a but of time looting so that I can buy more stuff than I normally would be able to if I just relied on finding credits in boxes/safes and getting credits from quests/missions.



ME2 is heavy on characters, dialogue, missions, but light on inventory, skills to develop and looting. Just take it for what it is and quit trying to argue semantics over what "true RPG elements" are. Look at the vast majority of games that are called RPGs and you'll see these things:



character development, dialogue between NPCs and party members, inventory, skill tree, looting of some consequence.



ME2, from what I have played so far is great, but I was merely saying that I miss the things they "streamlined"(gutted) and hope they return in ME3, although I hope they are better done than they were in ME1.

#60
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Lumikki wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

One of the main complaints along these lines, which I agree with, is that the inventory and level up systems should have been streamlined, not gutted. Gear progression, at least for me, is an integral part of the RPG experience, and the planet scanning for generic +10% damage upgrades in ME2 really cheapened that experience for me. Part of the fun of an RPG is finding gear on your way through the game and building each character using gear and level ups to exactly how you want them. This was more or less absent from ME2. Yes, the ME1 inventory was absurdly cluttered, but that's because of the large numbers of duplicate items and the ridiculously large item drop rate, not due to the fact that inventories are a bad design choice.

I agree and disagree.

ME1 inventory system was badly done, but that's not only reason why it doesn't fit in Mass Effects. Hole problem starts from looting system. I mean looting induvidual items is what cause the hole problem. ME2 had totally different way to do looting system and that changed hole consept of "inventory" as how it works. Why it was done?

ME1 you loot induvidual items, what without exemption allways cause garbageman rummage in the trash and scrap yard symptoms. That's how traditional RPG looting works. This cause huge inventories, what requires item sorting system, because other ways player is drowning huge amount of junk items. This is unavoidable consequence of this kind of systems. More items (customation) game has, more problems it creates for player. This often also leeds inventory limits and player is forced to clean up inventories or waste time when selecting loot. Often selecting loot isn't even usefull, because games requires selling those junk items to get money to buy what player really needs. My point here is hole problem starts from looting and all the consequences from there are unavoidable. More customation you want in that system, more problems you also have and focus is more in items, not playing in story.

Some players think this is okey to have induvidual items and inventory. I disagree because Mass Effect is build very cinematic impression gameplay, so item management ways is more like what traditional RPG's often are, isn't fitting well in Mass Effects. Traditional RPG way turns the main focus of the game from cinematic impression to stats and item managements. So, that's reason why ME2 item handling is better, it was just little too limited (too little customation) in ME2, but the way it's done, fits better to Mass Effect. Same way that rat to god progression isn't best for Mass Effect story, because story doesn't support it. It's like forcing traditional RPG system to inside something what isn't like that, so it's better to try find RPG system what fits the nature of the game better. People are mostly annoyed to ME2 because it was so limited, but that's not systems fault. It was developers fault as they simplifyed too much and left alot of what was good out of it. Base system is still fine, it just need to be expanded, so that players have more choises and those choises means more.

There is no point to go back for garbageman rummage of trash style. That's not the style of Mass Effect. Not every damm game has to be fit in traditional RPG mold, there is other RPG possibilities too.


About "no point to go back"... this is exactly what he says. Also, "not the style of Mass Effect"... not the what? Last time I checked... that inventory is part of Mass Effect.

Modifié par NewMessageN00b, 30 octobre 2010 - 07:43 .


#61
WuWeiWu

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There is a lot of stupid surrounding this issue, on all sides of the argument. I wouldn't know where to begin to nitpick each sides glaring misconceptions and flaws, but I felt that I should point out that they are there. Please stop arguing about what makes an RPG a... RPG. Inventories aren't what makes a role-playing game a role-playing game, but they are an integral facilitating aspect of the genre. I vastly prefer the ME2 style inventory, and I vastly prefer the ME1 level of gear customization; these systems do not have to be separate.

For example, in ME2, I would have liked there to be a table in the armory on the Normandy where I could research and build weapon modifications for my weapons, namely the sniper rifle. I would also have liked to have a 'meditation' chamber in the med-bay in which to explore new variants of my biotic characters powers - think level 4 skill customization in the ME2 skill tree, lightly sprinkled with the weapon and armor customization from ME1. Some rare parts or even full modifcations could be sparsely located in shops throughout the galaxy. On the biotics side of things, you could run in to biotics with rare mutations/styles from whom you could learn from or observe and replicate. Something like that would have made the ME2 inventory and gear progression system worlds better than literally any other system out there, in terms of mixing polish (streamlined) and customization.

To me, an RPG is exactly that - something that allows me to role play my designed characters. Something that allows me to project myself on to a fictional narrative and do what the Greek would have us do most, catharse. Now, my 'designed' characters could be anything from a fully fleshed character in a Pen and Paper game of Dungeons and Dragons with a novel for a backstory, to minor emotions I project on to an established protagonist that are not reflected in any gameplay system. In that sense, most games you play regardless of genre are an RPG.

Any other system, like an inventory system, is secondary to that. Now, that is not a point you could easily argue. You, the forum-goer, can refute only on the grounds against that of my ideas (biotic/weapon customization), and my point that an RPG is first and foremost a method of projection of the self with the intent to act in catharsis. You could also go tangential to my points, and further define what an RPG is on the grounds of past projects - Pen and Paper RPGs, the first CRPGs, etc. Any other point you wish to bring up in direct opposition of mine are probably retarded, and you should refrain from dirtying what dignity remains in this thread with your, the forum-goers, incompetence.

Modifié par WuWeiWu, 30 octobre 2010 - 09:31 .


#62
slimgrin

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This has been debated to death and for good reason. The devs, as well as its hardcore fans seem to think ME2 has evolved into something special, the next step in rpg's. I think its evolved into something different: a cinematic, action-based rpg.

I regret them abandoning inventory and skill trees, as well as more customization and abilities. By doing this, they sacrificed depth. Yes, it's still a great game, but to get my rpg fix, I don't look to ME2. I go with Dragon Age, The Witcher, Oblivion, Fallout 3, etc.

ME2 will always be counted as a seminal title in the sci-fi genre, but not the rpg genre. It's an action game first, an rpg second.

Modifié par slimgrin, 31 octobre 2010 - 02:25 .


#63
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Pacifien wrote...

[Edit: No. - Pacifien]

 Yes, and you know it.

#64
tallon1982

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I don't get how having an inventory system makes a game an RPG...To me that was a hassle in ME1 especially when I had a 'full inventory' that made me have to go sell crap or reduce it to omni gel. The fact that that was taken out of ME2 was such a relief to me. The skill tree isn't really gone, it was condensed. Instead of having this long ass list of choice it was simplified which made it easier to decide what you wanted to do. Didn't like what skills you had? Retrain. It made it specific to the class chosen from either the import or new character. I think ME2 refined the RPG elements very nicely. Technical things do not an RPG make.-yoda speak-



RPG is more about the story and how the characters 'evolve' rather than the interface. Having a nice interface makes it easier to play but that's about it.

#65
Lumikki

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NewMessageN00b wrote...

About "no point to go back"... this is exactly what he says. Also, "not the style of Mass Effect"... not the what? Last time I checked... that inventory is part of Mass Effect.

It was not about having inventory, both games have it, just different ways.

You understand difference between Nethack and Mass Effect 2. Other is all about numbers where impression isn't the point, it's more about stats, numbers, possibilities and players imagination, while other is more about fluid cinematic impression where all stats and micro management just distract players from "interactive action movie" style. People can try to force every game to use exact same traditonal RPG features, but what good that does? It's about allowing game to have different kind of RPG features what actually support the style of the game better. Some features as how they are done, just doesn't do it well. Example ME1 is excellent game, but all it's problems are comming from traditional RPG features. Also same problems what ME1 have also exist in DAO and Kotor, but they actually are more traditional RPG's, where micro management play big role. Meaning no-one even expected them to be done like cinematic story telling, because they aren't. The style is different.

It's about not mixing two different style, like micro management and cinematic impression, because micro managements breaks the impression, same way that those mission summary stats screens does after every missions. If developers could do even customation screens more cinematic ways in ME3, that would be even better.

Modifié par Lumikki, 31 octobre 2010 - 06:13 .


#66
AdamNW

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I'm really sick and tired of people who think this game is somehow worse because it lacks RPG qualities.

#67
smithgroup

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AdamNW wrote...

I'm really sick and tired of people who think this game is somehow worse because it lacks RPG qualities.


Why? It supposed to be an RPG/shooter HYBIRD, right?

It should have a good amount of both IMO.

#68
Oblarg

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AdamNW wrote...

I'm really sick and tired of people who think this game is somehow worse because it lacks RPG qualities.


I'm really sick and tired of the people who think this game is somehow better because they removed the inventory.

Except I'm not, people can have their opinions, but I thought I'd type that to show you how absurd your statement sounded.

Modifié par Oblarg, 31 octobre 2010 - 07:46 .


#69
AdamNW

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@Smithgroup: Why are you basing your opinion on what you think it should be?



@Oblarg: lol, ok.

#70
slimgrin

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AdamNW wrote...

I'm really sick and tired of people who think this game is somehow worse because it lacks RPG qualities.


It may not be worse, its just different, with a different set of priorities. Choice and consequence, character development, strategy, story arc - these things take a back seat to action and improved gameplay mechanics. 

It's still a very good game, one that straddles genres, making it hard to define. But I can't for a moment say the story is as good as ME1, the choice and consequence even remotely as good as The Witcher or Dragon Age; its game for casual gamers, and I guarantee the dev team saw it as such. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 31 octobre 2010 - 08:09 .


#71
kalle90

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AdamNW wrote...
Why are you basing your opinion on what you think it should be?


?

I saw ME1 as a flawed diamond. I expected ME2 to improve on it, but actually I just got a different game. Yes, you can say that you think the new inventory is better than the old one but I don't agree.

A pure improvement would have been a smoother UI, that alone would have ended nearly all complainments about inventory. Games like Morrowind and KOTOR can have dozens of stuff but managing the inventory doesn't get tedious.

A pure improvement for re-skinned clone weapons would have been to make the Lancers different from the Kovalyovs like ME2 did. There was no need to remove the ability to loot them, buy them, sell them, remove all the grades from I to X, remove the balanced mods...

A pure improvement for combat would have been better AI and locational damage, no one would have complained about those, but when you turned levels into linear covershooting galleries some people started to dislike the system.

A pure improvement for redutant skill steps would have been to take out a couple of steps, not over half and also remove skills.

I can only hope they had EASPORTS design in mind when making ME2. NHL05 had boardplay, then it disappeared from a couple of games and then NHL09 brought it back as a "revolutionary new feature"

Modifié par kalle90, 31 octobre 2010 - 12:15 .


#72
Lumikki

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kalle90 wrote...

Games like Morrowind and KOTOR can have dozens of stuff but managing the inventory doesn't get tedious.

I have never liked any inventory system in any of those games, including DAO too, they have allways been flawed. My point is that they have annoyed me allways, because they are so badly design. I just have tolerated it, because that's how it has been allways. ME1 system was just very bad case because too many versions of same items, but the same problem would have been there than other games had anyway, even if ME1 inventory system would been different. Problem is in base design, not just in UI.

#73
kalle90

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Lumikki wrote...

kalle90 wrote...

Games like Morrowind and KOTOR can have dozens of stuff but managing the inventory doesn't get tedious.

I have never liked any inventory system in any of those games, including DAO too, they have allways been flawed.


I get the feeling you just don't like that sort of inventories no matter how they're done. You seem to like what ME2 has but IMO it really isn't an inventory (IMO It's like calling choosing the loadout in Reach, COD, BF1942... an inventory). I often get more customization, options and freedom in action games than I get in ME2

I just can't see how someone can call the inventory of Morrowind bad. It was fast and simple. Plus in the beginning it was quite sensible in terms how much a person can carry

Modifié par kalle90, 31 octobre 2010 - 02:09 .


#74
Lumikki

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kalle90 wrote...

I get the feeling you just don't like that sort of inventories no matter how they're done. You seem to like what ME2 has but IMO it really isn't an inventory (IMO It's like calling choosing the loadout in Reach, COD, BF1942... an inventory). I often get more customization, options and freedom in action games than I get in ME2

I just can't see how someone can call the inventory of Morrowind bad. It was fast and simple.

Lets forget ME1's and ME2's as how good they are working  and conserate the base design.

The base difference starts from looting, how it's handled. Think about it, what you loot in both systems? Amount of customation can be in both system as good as bad, it's just what developers has done. Buying items from shop can be done pretty same ways, except same looting type difference affects here too. Selling is not really possible in ME2 type of system, but then what you sell any way and why? What you don't need (junk) to get money to buy what you need. Even UI can be very close to same, but it will be affected by the loot design here too, of cause.

Point is that you judge ME2 system based how badly and very limited way it was done in ME2 and then compared it to better inventory system you know. Look the base design, not how good or bad it was done in games. What's the different in base design and how it affects players gameplay.

#75
AdamNW

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You also have to account for how realistic an inventory actually is. You have absolutely no space to store all of those guns in ME1 or 2. At least you had backpacks and other storage devices in other WRPG's.