145 réponses à ce sujet

[Fiery Phoenix]

Nightwriter wrote...

I think the issue is a bit moot at this point, though.

The implausibility of everyone surviving the suicide mission is something that can't be fixed now that the game is out.

But since it is already out, I think they owe it to players (yes, I know "owe" is a dangerous word) to have our effort to save everyone mean something. I saved them because I want them alive and around for ME3. If they're not, what did I save them for?

New players, those who will start a BioWare game with a big fat 3 next to its name, are too important. Remember?

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...
I saved them because I want them alive and around for ME3. If they're not, what did I save them for?

You saved them for the warm and fuzzy feeling inside. You've got the warm and fuzzy feeling inside already, so ME3 owes nothing to you.

[Fiery Phoenix]

^ LOL! Sad, but most likely true, as much as it hurts me to admit it.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 30 octobre 2010 - 08:24 .

[Felene]

My Shepard let everyone lived through the suicide mission because she is a leader, not a hater.

When someone follow you willingly into a suicide mission, you don't kill them simply because you dislike them.

[Kasces]

Oblarg wrote...

Lord Nicholai wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

And then it turns out that you just so happens that the base is so poorly defended that you and your frigate can destroy the entire thing with relatively no resistance.

True, the base was so poorly defended that it required a reaper IFF to get through the only Mass Relay leading to it.

Oh yes, about that IFF, the reapers just left one of their dead lying around because obviously that's a smart thing to do.

Oh, and once you get it you don't study it or try to duplicate it, nah, you hook it directly up to your ship because obviously you're commander ****ing shepard and logic won't stop you from being a badass!

The entire plot is absurd to the point of breaking immersion at times.

Off topic but...

1) Relatively no resistance? Was I the only one who saw my normandy go down and crash? (and without upgrades 2 or 3 squaddies die out the gate) 

2) The base is poorly defended because it's in/near the galactic core, it is a new experiment if the Collectors' use to be Protheans, and...did I mention near a galactic core? 

3) That Reaper wasn't found for 37 million years and the Reapers are already hubristic, they probably did not think a species would be smart enough to find it, much less knowing whatever it is and not being indoctrinated.

4) Seriously? duplication? After your crew just got abducted probably not a couple days later? And Of course they went in blind, Shep always anticipated going in blind since, you know, no one else ever returned from going in even once aka look at the ship debris when you go through the relay.

Back on topic...

Why not have everyone survive if I can? Operative words, if and I and can. I still haven't got the No one Left Behind achievement.

Modifié par Kasces, 30 octobre 2010 - 08:52 .

[Oblarg]

Kasces wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

Lord Nicholai wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

And then it turns out that you just so happens that the base is so poorly defended that you and your frigate can destroy the entire thing with relatively no resistance.

True, the base was so poorly defended that it required a reaper IFF to get through the only Mass Relay leading to it.

Oh yes, about that IFF, the reapers just left one of their dead lying around because obviously that's a smart thing to do.

Oh, and once you get it you don't study it or try to duplicate it, nah, you hook it directly up to your ship because obviously you're commander ****ing shepard and logic won't stop you from being a badass!

The entire plot is absurd to the point of breaking immersion at times.

Off topic but...

1) Relatively no resistance? Was I the only one who saw my normandy go down and crash? (and without upgrades 2 or 3 squaddies die out the gate) 

2) The base is poorly defended because it's in/near the galactic core, it is a new experiment if the Collectors' use to be Protheans, and...did I mention near a galactic core? 

3) That Reaper wasn't found for 37 million years and the Reapers are already hubristic, they probably did not think a species would be smart enough to find it, much less knowing whatever it is and not being indoctrinated.

4) Seriously? duplication? After your crew just got abducted probably not a couple days later? And Of course they went in blind, Shep always anticipated going in blind since, you know, no one else ever returned from going in even once aka look at the ship debris when you go through the relay.

....Back on topic

Why not have everyone survive if I can? Operative words, if and I and can. I still haven't got the No one Left Behind achievement.

Yes, one cruiser that your frigate (unupgraded) can destroy is hardly defended at all.  If Cerberus weren't morons they'd have tried to duplicate the IFF and sent an entire fleet through, or at least sent in a heavy cruiser or something stronger than a goddamn frigate designed for stealth.  Anything but immediately strapping the IFF to your ship once you retrieve it - that's just about the dumbest course of action possible.

ME2 makes everyone in the series look like bumbling idiots, including the player and the main villains (the reapers).  This is generally not a good thing to do in the middle of a sweeping three-game epic space opera.

[Kasces]

Oblarg wrote...

Kasces wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

Lord Nicholai wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

And then it turns out that you just so happens that the base is so poorly defended that you and your frigate can destroy the entire thing with relatively no resistance.

True, the base was so poorly defended that it required a reaper IFF to get through the only Mass Relay leading to it.

Oh yes, about that IFF, the reapers just left one of their dead lying around because obviously that's a smart thing to do.

Oh, and once you get it you don't study it or try to duplicate it, nah, you hook it directly up to your ship because obviously you're commander ****ing shepard and logic won't stop you from being a badass!

The entire plot is absurd to the point of breaking immersion at times.

Off topic but...

1) Relatively no resistance? Was I the only one who saw my normandy go down and crash? (and without upgrades 2 or 3 squaddies die out the gate) 

2) The base is poorly defended because it's in/near the galactic core, it is a new experiment if the Collectors' use to be Protheans, and...did I mention near a galactic core? 

3) That Reaper wasn't found for 37 million years and the Reapers are already hubristic, they probably did not think a species would be smart enough to find it, much less knowing whatever it is and not being indoctrinated.

4) Seriously? duplication? After your crew just got abducted probably not a couple days later? And Of course they went in blind, Shep always anticipated going in blind since, you know, no one else ever returned from going in even once aka look at the ship debris when you go through the relay.

....Back on topic

Why not have everyone survive if I can? Operative words, if and I and can. I still haven't got the No one Left Behind achievement.

Yes, one cruiser that your frigate (unupgraded) can destroy is hardly defended at all.  If Cerberus weren't morons they'd have tried to duplicate the IFF and sent an entire fleet through, or at least sent in a heavy cruiser or something stronger than a goddamn frigate designed for stealth.  Anything but immediately strapping the IFF to your ship once you retrieve it - that's just about the dumbest course of action possible.

ME2 makes everyone in the series look like bumbling idiots, including the player and the main villains (the reapers).  This is generally not a good thing to do in the middle of a sweeping three-game epic space opera.

Are you talking about the Cruiser or the base itself? I was speaking of the base. It makes sense that a Cruiser should be destroyable, remember it fled when the guns came on at Horizon? Plus the Normandy is not the average frigate.

Cerberus would have been idiotic to do that. If no ships have ever come back from going properly through the Omega 4, why would they send a fleet to never return? TIM was expecting a Collector HomeWorld, as in a planet, not a manufacturing Base.

I don't think so, but to each his own. I'll stop so this thread won't get locked down though

Modifié par Kasces, 30 octobre 2010 - 09:00 .

[Homey C-Dawg]

EDI says that drift of several thousand k was standard after a jump (doesn't look like it from some of the cinematics though). I think the idea was that any ship that hadn't studied collectors (like EDI did on the collector ship) would have been destroyed by natural causes before the floating eyeball robots even activated.

Anyway, I wanted to kill Miranda every playthrough, but she wears that afor-mentioned indestructible "plot armor" through most of the suicide mission. Eventually I learned how to target her, so I'm happy now.

[Moiaussi]

Nightwriter wrote...

I think the issue is a bit moot at this point, though.

The implausibility of everyone surviving the suicide mission is something that can't be fixed now that the game is out.

But since it is already out, I think they owe it to players (yes, I know "owe" is a dangerous word) to have our effort to save everyone mean something. I saved them because I want them alive and around for ME3. If they're not, what did I save them for?

The only implausable thing about everyone surviving the 'suicide mission' was that anyone survived it. A single scout ship who's one advantage (stealth) doesn't work against the enemy), that was boarded twice by drones capable of punching through its hull, yet somehow incapable of punching through interior walls and always entering a non-critical area regardless....

I suppose there is a second implausable thing in that Shepard refers to it as a 'suicide mission.' I mean, they didn't know what they would really be up against, and there were no casualties in ME1's 'suicide mission' either, so why the defeatist attitude? "This will be a really tough mission and we should expect casualties, we might not make it out at all" isn't the same attitude as "This is a suicide mission".

[PROKNIFER69]

yes, yes i do.

[Oblarg]

Kasces wrote...

Are you talking about the Cruiser or the base itself? I was speaking of the base. It makes sense that a Cruiser should be destroyable, remember it fled when the guns came on at Horizon? Plus the Normandy is not the average frigate.

Cerberus would have been idiotic to do that. If no ships have ever come back from going properly through the Omega 4, why would they send a fleet to never return? TIM was expecting a Collector HomeWorld, as in a planet, not a manufacturing Base.

I don't think so, but to each his own. I'll stop so this thread won't get locked down though

If TIM truly thought that a fleet, a ****ing fleet, couldn't accomplish anything, then they should have equipped drones with the IFF and gathered intel.  What sense does it make to send the guy you spent an absurd amount of resources to bring back from the dead blindly at the enemy without having any intel on what they might meet?

[Bourne Endeavor]

Bah, doubble post...

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 30 octobre 2010 - 09:11 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

After reading more posts in here, it's worth voicing my opinion on this. Effectively, there are two ways the suicide mission could plausibly end; entire team alive, or part of the team alive. In the former case, it's only fair that you get something out of every one of those surviving squadmates in ME3. In the latter case, for every KIA squad-mate, you simply get nothing and accept to live with the consequences.

It has been said that faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we can't or don't see. I realize this may not be the case at all, given the whole stand-alone nonsense for the sake of those ever-important people that plan to start a trilogy backwards. But I like to believe that BioWare are better than THAT.

I am hopeful because the appealing to those individuals that demand the third game be capable of explaining everything because they are too lazy to play the original two, it extremely annoying. If I import a file where the only surviving cast includes Ash/Kaiden, Garrus and Tali. I expect ME3 to accommodate my horridly lacking file. That much death is pure intentional, excluding if you are a complete fool/lazy. If this means I can only use Garrus and Tali all of ME3, so be it. I made my choice and wish to live with it.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 30 octobre 2010 - 09:12 .

[Moiaussi]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

ME2 didn't have any continuity to ME1? So all those e-mails and cameos were a product of my imagination?

I didn't say 'no' continuity. I said 'questionable' continuity. There are many instances where character personalities or plot lines seemed retconned (Garrus for those who taught him the paragon path, the attitude of the vermire survivor, of the Council, there being Feros survivors even for those who chose to kill the colonists, etc, and the whole ME2 storyline, which was too self contained and didn't really advance the story at all).

[Pocketgb]

No man left behind!

[Zulu_DFA]

Oblarg wrote...

ME2 makes everyone in the series look like bumbling idiots, including the player and the main villains (the reapers).  This is generally not a good thing to do in the middle of a sweeping three-game epic space opera.

But the ammo system! And alternate outfits!!!

Seriously though, if the Shepard keeps the C-Base but dies himself, in the ending cutscene TIM is shown looking at the C-Base being approached by several ships. This implies he has replicated the IFF and got a force at the ready to go in. Shepard's mission through the O-4 relay is recon. As the Collectors turn out to be unprepared even for that, "the cavalry" isn't called in and Shepard deals with them on his own.

It does make sense, only BioWare tried real hard to make it otherwise with all the "crew abduction" and "destroy the base" and "specialist asignments" stuff.

[Oblarg]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

ME2 makes everyone in the series look like bumbling idiots, including the player and the main villains (the reapers).  This is generally not a good thing to do in the middle of a sweeping three-game epic space opera.

But the ammo system! And alternate outfits!!!

Seriously though, if the Shepard keeps the C-Base but dies himself, in the ending cutscene TIM is shown looking at the C-Base being approached by several ships. This implies he has replicated the IFF and got a force at the ready to go in. Shepard's mission through the O-4 relay is recon. As the Collectors turn out to be unprepared even for that, "the cavalry" isn't called in and Shepard deals with them on his own.

It does make sense, only BioWare tried real hard to make it otherwise with all the "crew abduction" and "destroy the base" and "specialist asignments" stuff.

If that's the case, than in addition to the reapers being completely incompetant TIM is a bit of a moron.  Why spent all that money to bring Shepard back if you're willing to throw him out again?

And of course, when you compound this with how utterly absurd the Collector plan is to begin with and how little sense it makes to unquestioningly work for TIM, the plot pretty much falls apart.

Modifié par Oblarg, 30 octobre 2010 - 09:41 .

[upsettingshorts]

I want every surviving member of the party to come back, to ensure that the main story of ME2 - recruiting and building your team - actually matters. Otherwise if we have to replace them all, it will retoractively seem like a colossal waste of time.

[Felene]

Oblarg wrote...

If TIM truly thought that a fleet, a ****ing fleet, couldn't accomplish anything, then they should have equipped drones with the IFF and gathered intel.  What sense does it make to send the guy you spent an absurd amount of resources to bring back from the dead blindly at the enemy without having any intel on what they might meet?

Well, I don't know because that IFF was on a ship which had the effect of making everything onboard going crazy?

Something called "Indoctrination?"

Also just a thought, you might not want to use words like idiot/moron often, because when you point your finger that someone, the other three were point at yourself.

Anyhow you can always try to read or discuss plot relate question in this tread.

Modifié par Felene, 30 octobre 2010 - 10:30 .

[Moiaussi]

Felene wrote...

Well, I don't know because that IFF was on a ship which had the effect of making everything onboard going crazy?

Something called "Indoctrination?"

Also just a thought, you might not want to use words like idiot/moron often, because when you point your finger that someone, the other three were point at yourself.

Anyhow you can always try to read or discuss plot relate question in this tread.

And if TIM rotated personel out properly instead of leaving them there to go crazy and/or get converted to husks, that might not have been as much of an issue.

And actually, when I point, the my other three fingers point into my palm and/or off to the side... Not sure how you manage to point with them pointing directly back to you.. or why you think such symbolism makes any given arguement less idiotic.

[Oblarg]

Felene wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

If TIM truly thought that a fleet, a ****ing fleet, couldn't accomplish anything, then they should have equipped drones with the IFF and gathered intel.  What sense does it make to send the guy you spent an absurd amount of resources to bring back from the dead blindly at the enemy without having any intel on what they might meet?

Well, I don't know because that IFF was on a ship which had the effect of making everything onboard going crazy?

Something called "Indoctrination?"

Also just a thought, you might not want to use words like idiot/moron often, because when you point your finger that someone, the other three were point at yourself.

Anyhow you can always try to read or discuss plot relate question in this tread.

Oh, so better to make the guy that you spend trillions to bring back from the dead go crazy than to hook it up to a probe and gather some intel, right?

Also, if you take offense at me calling characters in a game "idiots," I'm afraid that's a personal problem.

[Cra5y Pineapple]

I'm hoping you can choose four people to stay in your squad along with your Love Interest (obviously) and Mordin because you need a scientist like him come on...I'm not even that big on him and I know he's nesasary.

[AdamNW]

I had everyone survive the suicide mission, but I went and killed off Zaeed in his trust mission right after.  That option only being available post-game is probably one of the worst decisions BW has ever made.

glasgoo21 wrote...
So this time, screw Thane, screw Miranda, screw Zaeed and I might even get Grunt killed. Really hope that ME3 provides me with better replacements for them as personaly they do not have an added value to my personal experience.

I might as well tell you, if you want Grunt to die, don't open his pod.  For Zaeed, take the paragon route in his loyalty mission after the suicide mission.  That way you don't have to kill them off in the SM.

Modifié par AdamNW, 30 octobre 2010 - 10:55 .

[KainrycKarr]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

ME2 didn't have any continuity to ME1? So all those e-mails and cameos were a product of my imagination?

Yes, since they had nearly zero effect on the rest of the game.

[Felene]

Moiaussi wrote...

And if TIM rotated personel out properly instead of leaving them there to go crazy and/or get converted to husks, that might not have been as much of an issue.

And actually, when I point, the my other three fingers point into my palm and/or off to the side... Not sure how you manage to point with them pointing directly back to you.. or why you think such symbolism makes any given arguement less idiotic.

If you send a reseach team to a place you know so little about and somehow they "stop reporting" back to you, its a good idea not to send anymore personal.

I would recommand you go back to your English teacher and ask him/her what "figure of speech" means.