34 réponses à ce sujet

[wookieeassassin]

PLEASE DO NOT POST ANY SPOILERS REGARDING MASS EFFECT 2 AS I JUST STARTED IT. THANKS.

So, I really enjoyed the first Mass Effect in terms of the gameplay, but thinking back the story just seemed very weird.

Ok, so the Prothean beacon at the beginning, ok. That seems reasonable.


Getting Saren disbarred from the Spectres, ok.

Going to Feros and fighting a giant mind controlling plant that swallowed up a naked Asari and somehow has
     a Cipher or something to help you understand the Prothean beacon vision more? Seems like something
     you'd think of when you were tripping acid to me..

Going to the mining place and getting Liara, ok.

Noveria, goes to find Benezia, gets the coordinates of the Mu Relay, ok.

Virmire, breeding Krogan warriors, blow up facility, ok.

Ilos, searching for the Conduit, which turns out to be... a small mass relay that is a shortcut to the Citadel? This is what they have been searching for the entire time?
All this running around the galaxy, finding the Mu Relay, etc. to find a backdoor into the Citadel?
Doesn't Sovereign and the Geth ships attack the Citadel directly anyway? The only thing that Saren uses the Conduit for is to get inside the Citadel and get control of it (I don't remember how). Couldn't it have been much easier for them to take control of the Citadel with a ground force after Sovereign and the Geth Ships started attacking it?

The Conduit being basically the main part of the plot, aside from the Reapers trying to come back, ends up being a runaround back to the Citadel?

[wookieeassassin]

You never explained why there was a naked Asari inside a plant who cloned her.



Also, what does Saren having a backdoor into the Citadel via the Conduit have anything to do with him taking control of the Citadel/cutting off communications? I'd think the minute anyone on the Citadel saw Saren all of C-Sec would be all over him instantly. I don't remember the exact details but it just seems like he waltzed in and took control of the Citadel from the Citadel Tower.

[FireEye]

She wasn't naked.  She had commando armor. 

The Thorian absorbed creatures as workers and dead life as compost.  One or the other gave it the understanding of the Prothean mind from when it absorbed Protheans that lived on Feros.  The imprint of the Prothean mind, absorbed by Shiala for Saren and given to Shepard for freeing her, gave a cultural understanding of the information left behind in the Prothean beacons.

Saren needed the Conduit to get the invading geth inside the Citadel so he could seize the tower.  He couldn't do it alone, because tampering with the tower would probably get him arrested by the round the clock security.  Sovereign couldn't take over remotely, because of what the Protheans did to the Keepers, so it needed someone to do it manually.  Just flying in with geth forces wouldn't work, because they wouldn't be able to dock - the Council would close the Citadel (like Saren did) and the geth and Sovereign would be obliterated by the responding allied fleets.

I suspect that Sovereign also wanted to know where the Conduit was so it couldn't be used again, seeing as how it interfered with its plans for a smooth invasion.  It may have also needed to know what the Protheans did to reverse the problem, though I'm not certain of that part.

[Exile Isan]

The Thorian was there when the Protheans lived on that planet. It watched them come and go as a species, thousands of generations, millions of lives. That's why it knew so much about the Protheans, it studied them.

[Spitfire80]

wookieeassassin wrote...

Also, what does Saren having a backdoor into the Citadel via the Conduit have anything to do with him taking control of the Citadel/cutting off communications? I'd think the minute anyone on the Citadel saw Saren all of C-Sec would be all over him instantly. I don't remember the exact details but it just seems like he waltzed in and took control of the Citadel from the Citadel Tower.

If you recall he came out of the conduit really close to the tower, it would only take a short march for him and his rather large unit. (i killed a lot of geth and krogan on that one) And C-sec would have a lot on their plate just then. I imagine they got the councill out of the councill chambers as their first priority and then had to deal with the space attack and ensuing panic.

[Gibb_Shepard]

The conduit was used so Saren could get into the citadel and open the galactic door for all the reapers. The attack on the citadel was simply a diversion while Saren went in undetected. I don't see whats wierd about that.



You're basically pissed a the storyline because you thought the conduit was some kind of uber pwnage weapon that would kill everyhing in the galaxy kind of thing? I was pleasently surprised when i found out the conduit was what it was, as just about any alternative would have been extremely cliche.

[wookieeassassin]

Hmm, makes a little more sense now.

[ajgoesunlucky]

No

[Zulu_DFA]

http://social.biowar...5/index/4772578

(ME2 spoilers)

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 novembre 2010 - 12:41 .

[AdmiralCheez]

I didn't think it was strange, no. It seemed to whip out all the scifi/videogame cliches, though, but it did most of them well, so I didn't mind. The Conduit thing was a little shaky, though: that much energy just to sneak into the Citadel? Granted, nobody saw it coming, so it was an excellent surprise attack, but it was a shaky plot point at best.



Buuuuut some pretty wicked gameplay and cutscenes came with it, so I'll let them get away with it.

[IamDanThaMan]

The most important thing for Saren finding Ilos was not the conduit, it was finding out what the protheans did to the citadel that prevented Sovereign from accessing the citadel's systems remotely. He had to find out what they did in order to reverse it, then he used the conduit to get in before sovereign came to open the citadel relay for the reapers to come.

[Katamariguy]

FireEye wrote...

She wasn't naked.  She had commando armor. 

Is there a difference?

[Praetor Knight]

wookieeassassin wrote...
Going to Feros and fighting a giant mind controlling plant that swallowed up a naked Asari and somehow has
     a Cipher or something to help you understand the Prothean beacon vision more? Seems like something
     you'd think of when you were tripping acid to me..

A cipher is used in decryption, so I assume the Cipher allows Shep to interpret the Beacon's Info. Remember, Shep is now able to understand the Prothean language. As for the Asari? I've told myself, the way there are creepers, there are plant clones of the Asari, but that is not very convincing to me.

wookieeassassin wrote...
Ilos, searching for the Conduit, which turns out to be... a small mass relay that is a shortcut to the Citadel? This is what they have been searching for the entire time?
All this running around the galaxy, finding the Mu Relay, etc. to find a backdoor into the Citadel?
Doesn't Sovereign and the Geth ships attack the Citadel directly anyway? The only thing that Saren uses the Conduit for is to get inside the Citadel and get control of it (I don't remember how). Couldn't it have been much easier for them to take control of the Citadel with a ground force after Sovereign and the Geth Ships started attacking it? The Conduit being basically the main part of the plot, aside from the
Reapers trying to come back, ends up being a runaround back to the
Citadel?

It seems that Sovereign, through Saren, was seeking the Beacons to find out how the Protheans disabled the Citadel. And the Beacons told Saren about Ilos and the Conduit, but not what the Conduit did.

Then when Saren lost his Spectre status he had to scramble to find another way into the Council Chambers since Spectres are normally not normally seen with the Council in person as it is, even as their Agents. So Sovereign and Saren pursued their only lead, the Conduit.

So then Saren eventually heads to Ilos, finds the Conduit and figures out how to power it up and uses it to access the Citadel and then heads to the Council Chambers.

The Geth Fleet attack was simply a distraction to keep as much of C-Sec out of Saren's way, because remember the Mass Relays were shut down by Saren, once he gained control of the Citadel, until Shep enters Vigil's Codes / cracking program.

[chris025657]

 I've always thought Saren's decision to attack Eden Prime in pursuit of the Conduit is a plothole. 

We're shown that the geth fleet is capable of annihilating the Citadel fleet without much help from Sovereign. He has Benezia and her commandos as well as the ability to cure the genophage and breed massive numbers of Krogan. 

However, his greatest tactical and strategic strength is secrecy. The Citadel fleet was expecting the geth attack and was still practically wiped out. If the geth had the element of surprise on their side, I would imagine it to be even more one-sided. Any attack on the Citadel would also have the element of surprise.

Secondly, no one knows anything about the Reaper threat or that Saren is working with them. If he was worried about taking the Citadel, he would have to ability to build his forces, infiltrate the citadel, or plan his attack for example. 

It just doesn't make sense that he would risk everything on a plan that relies on so many unknowns in pursuing the Conduit over more directly attacking the Citadel. 

Modifié par chris025657, 20 novembre 2010 - 03:35 .

[Siegdrifa]

chris025657 wrote...

 I've always thought Saren's decision to attack Eden Prime in pursuit of the Conduit is a plothole. 

We're shown that the geth fleet is capable of annihilating the Citadel fleet without much help from Sovereign. He has Benezia and her commandos as well as the ability to cure the genophage and breed massive numbers of Krogan. 

However, his greatest tactical and strategic strength is secrecy. The Citadel fleet was expecting the geth attack and was still practically wiped out. If the geth had the element of surprise on their side, I would imagine it to be even more one-sided. Any attack on the Citadel would also have the element of surprise.

Secondly, no one knows anything about the Reaper threat or that Saren is working with them. If he was worried about taking the Citadel, he would have to ability to build his forces, infiltrate the citadel, or plan his attack for example. 

It just doesn't make sense that he would risk everything on a plan that relies on so many unknowns in pursuing the Conduit over more directly attacking the Citadel. 

I think you miss an important point, the citadel fleet was dvided an sent to guard many relay to prevent geth attack, but Saren closed all relay just after sovereign and geth attack direclty the citadel (they were not expected to be attacked directly).The remaining ship of the citadelle fleet was not enough agains geth and sovereign, the perfect trap, impossible for the citadel fleet to get back at the citadel.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 20 novembre 2010 - 09:47 .

[chris025657]

Siegdrifa wrote...

I think you miss an important point, the citadel fleet was dvided an sent to guard many relay to prevent geth attack, but Saren closed all relay just after sovereign and geth attack direclty the citadel (they were not expected to be attacked directly).The remaining ship of the citadelle fleet was not enough agains geth and sovereign, the perfect trap, impossible for the citadel fleet to get back at the citadel.

All that is known is that the Council increased patrols of relays leading to Citadel. It's quite a stretch to assume that this means the Council divided its forces. Secondly, if Saren's plan was to divide the citadel fleet, there's no reason why he couldn't do this without the extreme risks necessary and assumptions made to pursue the Conduit. In addition, the Geth would not need to defeat the Council fleet in order to be victorious. They would only need to provide a temporary distraction for Sovereign to reach the Presidium tower. The fact that the Geth were able to destroy the Citadel fleet is really just icing on the cake. 

Modifié par chris025657, 20 novembre 2010 - 04:01 .

[Siegdrifa]

chris025657 wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...

I think you miss an important point, the citadel fleet was dvided an sent to guard many relay to prevent geth attack, but Saren closed all relay just after sovereign and geth attack direclty the citadel (they were not expected to be attacked directly).The remaining ship of the citadelle fleet was not enough agains geth and sovereign, the perfect trap, impossible for the citadel fleet to get back at the citadel.

All that is known is that the Council increased patrols of relays leading to Citadel. It's quite a stretch to assume that this means the Council divided its forces. Secondly, if Saren's plan was to divide the citadel fleet, there's no reason why he couldn't do this without the extreme risks necessary and assumptions made to pursue the Conduit. In addition, the Geth would not need to defeat the Council fleet in order to be victorious. They would only need to provide a temporary distraction for Sovereign to reach the Presidium tower. The fact that the Geth were able to destroy the Citadel fleet is really just icing on the cake. 

There is only 1 relay near the citadel, so, guarding other relay mean to send them to other system, that's why they were trapped and couldn't go back to defend the citadel.
Plus, they had no idea their target was the citadel it self, we learn it at the end of ilos. If Shepard wasn't aware of this until the end, why would the citadel? that's why the citadel had not enough ship to fight when sovereign and geth arrive.
The conduit is a loop hole for the reapers, and sovereign want to deal with it before the next invasion.
Why? because as long as it is not solved, their return could be canceled again and again.
The difference between Saren and Shepard about the conduit is, Saren know what it is, he and sovereign just don't know where.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 21 novembre 2010 - 12:38 .

[chris025657]

Siegdrifa wrote...

There is only 1 relay near the citadel, so, guarding other relay mean to send them to other system, that's why they were trapped and couldn't go back to defend the citadel. 

I'm not sure if you understood the point I was making, so I'll try to be more clear: I don't think it's safe to assume that when the Asari councilor said that they were increasing patrols of the relays leading to the citadel means that they divided the citadel fleet.

Secondly, even if we assume that Saren's plan was to divide the citadel fleet, there is no reason why he would need the Conduit to do this. 

Plus, they had no idea their target was the citadel it self, we learn it at the end of ilos. If Shepard wasn't aware of this until the end, why would the citadel? that's why the citadel had not enough ship to fight when sovereign and geth arrive. 

The council knew that Saren had a Geth fleet and was preparing to attack the Citadel. 

The conduit is a loop hole for the reapers, and sovereign want to deal with it before the next invasion.
Why? because as long as it is not solved, their return could be canceled again and again.
The difference between Saren and Shepard about the conduit is, Saren know what it is, he and sovereign just don't know where.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The conduit isn't really a loophole for the Reapers, it's just a backdoor onto the Citadel. The real problem was that the Protheans had disrupted the signal used to activate the Citadel as a mass relay.

[Siegdrifa]

@chris025657

Yhea i get your point, but incrising patrol for citadel intrest without requiring citadel ressources is strange.
May be you refer citadel fleet as personnal ship that always stay around citadel ? me whe i say citadel fleet i refer to all ship under the authority of the citadel (many country have military outpost ouside their terrotiry).
In this case, i would agree with you that the minimum ship around the citadel is not enough agains the geth , but i don't agree when you say the citadel fleet is not enough agains the geth. The guard yes, the whole fleet, i don't think so.

The conduite is a backdoor yes, we learn it at the end, but this is because of this that reapers plan was ruined (until ME3 at least), and it is an important matter for sovereign to fix it, because if they start another invasion and letting it that way, their plan can be ruined / delayed again and again for other invasion.

I'm not assuming that Saren wanted to divide citadel fleet, but having other ship away at this time serve him right.
The lock down of the relay is the key to the trap, they send patrol to other relay they tough they could ealsy travel to wherever the geth would appear.
Since there is only 1 relay near the citadel, if they new they would attack directly the citadel, they would have renforcer the guard at this point.

In the cinematic, when sovereign and geth ship come from the relay and attac the citadel ship, it seem to be a surprise attaque for me, you see turian ship manoeuvring and truning to face the attaque.
If they were excpecting them, they would have welcomed them with heavy fire, already facing the relay.

I have another playthrough on the way so i will try to look at it with another eye.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:17 .

[HopHazzard]

Sovereign needed to dock with the Citadel to activate its relay, but standard procedure when the Citadel is attacked is to close the arms. Saren needed to the conduit to sneak onto the Citadel so he could take control of it before Sovereign's arrival.

[chris025657]

HopHazzard wrote...

Sovereign needed to dock with the Citadel to activate its relay, but standard procedure when the Citadel is attacked is to close the arms. Saren needed to the conduit to sneak onto the Citadel so he could take control of it before Sovereign's arrival.

No one suspects that he is planning an attack on the Citadel before he begins to pursue the Conduit. 
Saren is a spectre with considerable resources, powerful forces at his command, and more importantly, time and secrecy on his side. A more direct infiltration and surprise attack on the Citadel tower would require far less assumptions than pursuing Conduit. 

It just doesn't make sense for Saren to pursue a course of action that assumes:

• The existence of rare functioning Prothean beacons that might have partial messages which will lead to Ilos.
• A means of understanding the Prothean mind, which has been lost for 50,000 years
• A means of finding the Mu relay which has been lost for centuries.
• A means of locating Ilos after the Mu relay has been found.
• A 50,000 year old experimental conduit is still functional
• The assumption that this conduit will prove more useful than a direct attack on the Citadel tower

[Praetor Knight]

Well maybe that goes to show how indoctrinated Saren was, with the plan coming from Sovereign and Saren as the puppet, because it seems that Sovereign must have had a poor working understanding of Citadel culture and SOP to come with the Conduit plan as you've described.