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Tactics Explained


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#1
loderunner30

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There seems to be a lot of confusion on how the tactics system works. I’ve been observing different settings recently and I believe I have a handle on how the logic works. I will attempt to explain as best I can and have also provided some specific examples and tips. Please, let me know if I’ve gotten anything wrong.

The game checks the first entry on the list to evaluate whether that condition is true/false. If it is true, then it executes the action you set up. If the condition is false, it moves to the next item on the list, and evaluates it. If condition 2 is met, it executes the action associated with it, and restarts the process beginning with the first item on the list. It is important to note that:

1) It will only restart the evaluation after the action is completed. If your logic instructs your warrior/tank to attack the archer on the other side of the battlefield, the system will not evaluate any conditions until he actually performs the attack.

2) If the condition is true, but the action is in cooldown, the logic will move on the next condition on the list

Typically, the action performed takes very little time, so that the conditions are checked frequently. In fact, the logic usually moves faster than the game, which especially can have an impact on your spellcasters.

If none of the conditions on the list are met, the character will perform the default attack routine on the nearest enemy, assuming behavior is set to default or aggressive.

For example:

1) Self: Health < 50% >>> Take health poultice least powerful
2) Enemy: Nearest Visible >>> Shield Bash
3) Enemy: Attacking main character >>> Shield Pummel

At the start of combat, check condition 1. Health is at 100%, so not true. Check condition 2, true, perform the Shield Bash action. After the bashing is done, check condition 1, say health is a 90%, so not true. Evaluate 2, true, but cannot perform the action as it is in cooldown. Evaluate 3, true, perform the shield pummel action on the enemy that is attacking the main character. After that enemy is pummeled, restart at condition 1.

Before I move on , I should point out that I have the Advanced Tactics mod installed, which provides more tactic slots and more options. I highly recommend it for anyone that plans on using the tactics system.

It is important to try to control which enemies are being targeted by your party members. If they are constantly switching targets, you’ll end up with a bunch of bad guys with 50% health, but none of them dead. In many cases, it is best to try to take the highest potential damage off the field as soon as possible, without wasting spells/abilities. In other cases, you might want to take out an elite mage first, or take out an elite enemies’ buddies first. You can set up 3 different custom lists and switch as needed before each battle. In any case, it is important to understand how the Enemy, and Target conditions function.

The Enemy condition attempts to find the nearest enemy that matches the condition and targets that enemy if the condition is met. It will switch targets if another enemy meets the criteria. So, Enemy: Nearest Visible will target the nearest bad guy. Simple enough, but realize that if for example your warrior is attacking the nearest enemy and that enemy decides to move away and attack your spellcaster, the warrior will switch targets to the nearest enemy when this condition is evaluated. Multiple Enemy statements, like in the example above, can also cause the AI to switch targets. Also, the Self: Being attacked by… statement may cause a switch to the enemy that is attacking.

The Target condition only evaluates the current target, and performs the action if the condition is met. It will not cause the AI to switch to a new target.

Unfortunately, some of the conditions listed on the Target check do not appear to work intuitively.

1) Target: Health – Doesn’t appear to work at all on enemy units, not sure about allies
2) Target: Being attacked by – Same as #1

With Advanced Tactics mod, you may be able to get around #2 by using the Target: Not being attacked by… statement, which does appear to work.

The Jump To… action can be a handy tool to avoid potentially bad outcomes. Use it to skip the outcomes that you do not want to occur, rather than jumping to the action that you do want to occur, thinking you can set up an action with multiple conditions. The reason for this is that the second condition will still be evaluated regardless of whether or not the first condition is true. Typically, I use this to try to avoid hurting party members with AOE spells. It is not foolproof by any means, but it can help.

An example of what not to do:

1) Target: not being attacked by a melee attack >>> Jump to 2
2) Target: between medium and long range >>> Fireball

It appears that you are setting up a multiple condition set up for Fireball. But what happens is that, if #1 is not true, the logic will still check #2, and your poor melee guys are toast if they are between medium and long range.

Use the Jump to… action to skip actions you do not want performed, for example:

1) Enemy: Being attacked by a melee attack: >>> Jump To 4
2) Target: between medium and long range: >>> Fireball
3) Target: between short and medium range: >>> Flame Blast
4) Enemy: Nearest Visible: >>> Arcane Bolt

Condition #1 targets any enemy being attacked by a melee attack. If true, then it jumps to condition 4, which targets the nearest enemy and casts Arcane Bolt. If false, then condition 2 is evaluated on the current target, which will not be the enemy from #1 (because there is no enemy being attacked by melee). An attempted target switch is implemented in #4, since the logic will restart at #1 after arcane bolt is performed. There are serious limitations on this set up, but it can reduce friendly fire damage.

Another example of use of the Jump To… action:

1) Self: Health >= 70% >>> Jump To 3
2) Enemy: Affected by Vulnerability Hex or Affliction Hex >>> Drain Life
3) Self: Being attacked >>> Vulnerability Hex

This is something I set up for Morrigan in Lothering. If her health falls below 70%, then condition 2 is performed, which targets the enemy affected by V-Hex and casts Drain Life for the extra damage and healing. If her health never falls below 70%, or if she’s never attacked, she’ll never cast Drain Life.

Tips and useful info:

A) Use the Behavior switch action to attempt to keep you melee units from be affected by AOE spells at the beginning of combat.

1) Self: Exploration >>> Behavior: Defensive
2) Enemy: at short range >>> Behavior: Default
3) Enemy: nearest visible >>> Shield Bash

Another good use of the Behavior switch is for Shapeshifting, although it does use up a lot of slots. Another Morrigan example:

1) Self: Mana or stamina level < 10% >>> Activate: Spider Shape
2) Self: Shapeshifted >>> Behavior: Default
3) Enemy: nearest visible >>> Web
4) Self: Mana or stamina level > 20% >>> Deactivate: Spider Shape
5) Self: Mana or stamina level > 20% >>> Behavior: Ranged

So, when she is a spellcaster, her behavior is set to ranged and as a spider, it is set to default. This is to prevent her as a spider from attacking, then running away over and over. Also note that you need to pause the game while she is in spider shape and go into the tactics screen in order for the Web ability to show up on the list.

B) The Being attacked by… logic only works when the condition actually happens. So in the example above for avoiding AOE spells, when the Enemy: being attacked by a melee attack condition is evaluated, it is only true when the enemy is actually being attacked. If your warrior is on the way to the enemy, stunned/knocked down, or petrified/frozen by the enemy, the condition is not true. Same for Enemy: being attacked by a magic attack. The condition is not true until the spell reaches the target.

The logic moves faster than the game. So, if, for whatever reason, you wanted
to switch to a target not being attacked by magic after a certain spell was cast, the switch may not happen until another spell or two is cast at the current target.

C) If you want to use the attack action, put it towards the bottom of the list. This is because it is an action that can always be performed. If placed at the top of the list, the items on the bottom will most likely never be evaluated because the process will restart at condition #1.

D) If you’re not sure a set up is working properly, save the game prior to combat, and use the pause action for the condition you are trying to set up. This will pause the game if/when that condition is met.

Hope this helps!

Modifié par loderunner30, 30 octobre 2010 - 08:32 .


#2
Ferretinabun

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Brava!

#3
Liliandra Nadiar

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A slight addon I use for healer mages. Since the logic works faster then the game, it's possible your mage can/will cast a healing spell on the same target. Or a second on if you have multiple heal conditions.



1) Ally: Health (75%) >>> Heal

2) Ally: Health (50%) >>> Mass Heal



The above would seem like the most logical placement. But some hits can drop a companions hit points down to 50% fast, or they could be the victim of the opening attacks from a group of enemies. In this case, logic sees their health below 75/50% and casts heal, but before the heal completes, logic cycles through again and still sees them below so the mage casts again. Not necessarily a bad thing with those two 'instant cast' spells, but what about duration spells like Regeneration, or the duration stamina/mana spells like Rejuvenation and Mass Rejuvenation?



They take time to build up that won't be past their trigger event by the next cycle. An option is to 'preempt' the situation by having the mage cast early. The Advanced tactics mod is invaluable for this.



1) Alistair : Health (70%) >>> Lifeward

2) Ally: Health (80%) >>> Regeneration

3) Ally: Health (60%) >>> Heal

4) Ally: Health (40%) >>> Mass Heal



With this, allies have regeneration early in the fight to off-set some of the damage and avoid getting to heals that they probably don't strictly need at that time. For Lifeward, that spell is basically several small heal spells on the target over time without action from the mage, cast on a companion you know or expect to get a lot of hits in a fight (Such as a tank) you will keep them up longer even with the other heals on cooldown or the mage on low mana and allow Regeneration more time to work.



Mana/Stamina recovery spells work in the same manor, though you probably want a wider gap between activate conditions since they move even slower in a fight then Regeneration.



1) Ally: Has Mana/Stamina (80%) >>> Mass Rejuvenation

2) Ally: Has Mana/Stamina (40%) >>> Rejuvenation



Since in a fight, everyone will probably be using talents (and the Mass spell is the only one that effects the mage) casting Mass Reju early in the fight is almost never a bad idea, the single target Reju, on a much faster cooldown, is used on a more 'needed by' case.

#4
loderunner30

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Good stuff, Liliandra. Thanks for the additions.

#5
chefbobby203

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Have you actually had success setting aoe spells into tactics? Every time I've tried this it has meant certain death for my party

#6
Liliandra Nadiar

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If you have you mage's cast conditions be 'Enemy: Between medium and long range' and have your companions behavior not on Aggressive or another attack the moment enemy is visible, it should lower the chances of catching you party in your own fireball. Not always though. Sometimes the logic gets hung up on targets if there are melee and ranged/mage attackers.

#7
Ashaman X

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Ok, quick question: if I want to set my rogues to automatically poison their blades with a poison, how would I do it? I've managed to get it working by using Self: Use Item and selecting the coating, but I found that afterwards, the character would do nothing else. Is there a proper way to get rogues to do this? Thanks!

#8
Liliandra Nadiar

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Logic's probably stuck continuously trying to reapply poison every time it reaches the tactic. Change the Self: Any to something like Self: Being attacked by melee. And drag the tactic below other tactics that it can use.

#9
DWSmiley

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loderunner30 wrote...
Unfortunately, some of the conditions listed on the Target check do not appear to work intuitively.

1) Target: Health – Doesn’t appear to work at all on enemy units, not sure about allies
2) Target: Being attacked by – Same as #1

Gah, I use these all the time, or least I thought I did.  I use #1 to avoid wasting a talent or spell on an almost-dead enemy.  And #2 is nice (or was in theory) if I have more than two people doing melee attacks because three is a crowd.

Modifié par DWSmiley, 01 novembre 2010 - 02:42 .


#10
Ashaman X

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Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

Logic's probably stuck continuously trying to reapply poison every time it reaches the tactic. Change the Self: Any to something like Self: Being attacked by melee. And drag the tactic below other tactics that it can use.


Thanks, I'll give this a bash next time I get hold of a rogue. I just started a new playthrough as a female noble warrior now, so it's going to be a whole new ballgame now, learning new skills and tactics compared to when I was a mage. Still, I can test this when I get hold of Jory in Ostagar.

#11
loderunner30

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@chefbobby203 - In my testing, I used the 'possessed' feature from Advanced Tactics, which let's the AI take control of your character. My PC is a mage and I had Morrigan along with Ali & Lil. Unfortunately, there is no way to eliminate the possibility of FF with the tactics system. You can reduce it, but not entirely eliminate it. So, to answer your question, it all depends on your tolerance level.



I try to set it up so that AOE spells like fireball are cast at the start of combat, before your melee guys reach their targets. That's where using the Behavior: Defensive then switching to Default when the enemy comes within short range, comes in handy.



@Ashaman X - Pretty much what Liliandra said. Be careful with Self: Any and performing actions. It's basically a non-condition, saying no matter what, do this action.



@DWSmiley - Yeah, that is exactly what I used was using the Target: Health condition for. When observing the combat though, I noticed my pc's where never performing the action. I used the Pause action to test, and combat never paused.

#12
DWSmiley

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Well, I played some last night and Sten and Morrigan definitely are using tactics set to Enemy Health >= 25%. FWIW, the WIki lists Enemy Health among the tactics that "will not change the enemy target but are used for conditions on the existing target. These conditions will be false if there is no target for the character."

#13
loderunner30

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Maybe that's why Target: Health doesn't work. I am going to test the Enemy: Health condition, but I'm sure the wiki is correct.

Edit: The wiki does not appear to be correct regarding this. I tested with Enemy: Health (%), Enemy: at range, and Enemy: Using attack type. These conditions can cause a target switch.

Modifié par loderunner30, 02 novembre 2010 - 06:48 .


#14
Liliandra Nadiar

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Little something I discovered, the advanced tactics mod places two 'skills' on the sheet, they apply across the board to everyone. One is the Possessed to make your controlled character still enact their tactic selections. (Making good use of this on my Healer/support mage, I don't have to constantly watch the party's health) The other is Traitor, which tries to have your rogues circle around for backstabs. It works most of the time, though combat is so mobile I can't totally be sure.

#15
loderunner30

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Yup, I've been doing all my testing with the 'possessed' option turned on. And the 'Traitors' option does work, but sometimes if your rogue cannot get to the target (someone is in the way, target is in a narrow space, etc...) he/she will not attack and will keep trying to move behind the enemy.

#16
soteria

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Excellent explanation. Subscribed so I can refer people to it.

#17
loderunner30

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Thanks soteria! Nice videos, too.

---
As far as avoiding FF with AOE spells, there are generally 2 options:

1) Enemy: being attacked by melee attack >>> Jump to 3
2) Target: between medium and long range >>> Fireball
3) Enemy: nearest visible >>> Arcane Bolt

1) Ally: being attacked by a melee attack >>> Jump to 3
2) Target: between medium and long range >>> Fireball
3) Enemy: nearest visible >>> Arcane Bolt

Using Enemy is basically saying, if any enemy is being attacked by melee, don't do Fireball. Ally is saying, if any ally is being attacked by melee, don't do Fireball. Ally is generally safer, but there are many situations where you could safely use an AOE spell (e.g. against enemy archers).

It is also important to note that Ally includes "self," so for example if you use this with Morrigan:

1) Ally: being attacked by a melee attack >>> Jump to 3
2) Target: at short range >>> Cone of Cold
3) Enemy: nearest visible >>> Winter's Grasp

If she is being attacked by melee, she would not cast Cone of Cold.

Modifié par loderunner30, 06 novembre 2010 - 07:05 .


#18
Liliandra Nadiar

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That's what I use (basically) for AoE spells as well. The only downside to the 'Between Medium and Long Range' condition, is that there will be times the enemy starts there when the mage tosses the fireball, but is in melee or close to it when the fireball hits.



Occasionally setting 'Enemy: Using Ranged or Magic attack' works too unless your melee fighters run at them after the mage tosses a fireball.