210 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

0. The three-eyed Terminator was so lame that I totally forgot to initially mention it as needing more sense...

1. No "crew abduction". (It's a completely unnecessary and contrived plot device, that created a plot hole a few light years across. It amped things up a little for the "ZOMG! collecterz gots da crew!" kids.) EDI could have been unshackled during the Collector Ship mission.

2. Extended briefing with TIM before passing through the O-4 Relay. TIM saying that Cerberus tried sending probes in to no avail. Now the Normandy is the best option, because of the stealth, armament and QEC, which would allow him to monitor the progress of the mission in real-time. TIM putting it clearly that Shepard's primary objective is gathering intel. A hint that the "cavalry" will be called for in case there's something too big for Shepard to crack on his own.

3. No Normandy crashlanding on the C-Base. Instead, TIM coming up and requesting Shepard to board it and gather intel. At this point Shepard can bring up the idea of destroying the Base by the Normandy's BFBs - like the one used to blow up Teltin. TIM wins the conversation by suggesting that the fate of the abducted colonists must be investigated.

4. The Team goes in, the Crew remains to defend perimeter around the Normandy, with one squadmate leading them, and they can all die or all live by the "suicide mission" mechanics.

5. Better specialist roles. (As it's been actually implemented, the "tech expert" and "2nd fire team leader" make no sense whatsovever.) Also 2-3 mandatory deaths of random squadmates in the "hold the line" section, to make the mission truly "suicide". This could also determine Shepard's death: if the "hold the line" team all dies, Shepard is unable to withdraw to the Normandy and orders Joker to abandon him.

6. Better dialogue during the final choice. (Shepard's reasoning for both destroying and keeping the Base sounds ridiculous.)

7. The O-4 mass relay counterpart on the other side, through which the Normandy escapes. Clarification that the "safe zone" collapses quickly after (if) the C-Base is destroyed.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 décembre 2010 - 04:40 .

[glasgoo21]

Your points can be considered valid, still somewhere I'm happy that we didn't get a story as rushed as Kotor II for ME2. As such considering that not everything makes sense it's still more then ok in my eyes

[Isaidlunch]

Very good post, but one thing I'd change is making it so that the HtL deaths weren't random eg you send 3 squadmates to remain close to the doors and act as a distraction so that the others have a clear shot at them. Something that heavily implies that they'll die. While I prefer your idea I think it would just make it so that people keep reloading until they get the squadmates they like the least to die.

I'd agree that the abduction + crash landing weren't necessary. Both were eyeroll-worthy moments.

Modifié par Kazanth, 31 octobre 2010 - 09:59 .

[GodWood]

Although I agree with pretty much everything you suggested the damage has been and we're stuck with what we got.

[Zulu_DFA]

GodWood wrote...

Although I agree with pretty much everything you suggested the damage has been and we're stuck with what we got.

I want a patch, BioWare!!!

[LorDC]

1)The problem with build up for suicide mission you suggest is that it does not feel "suicide" at all. You are right that it would make much more sense with emphasize on reconnaissance aspect of the mission but IMO crash landing(or some big **** up) is necessary for creating right feeling. There must be some "oh crap they got us" moment that leads to suicide as the only alternative to death.
2) Yes there should be mandatory death's. But there shouldn't be random death's because it will only lead to a lot of whine and repetitive grind to get needed results.

PS And of course there must be pro-Cerberus option in dialogues with TIM. Because I hate to choose between pseudo-moral Paragon babbling and unnecessary rudeness of Renegades.

Modifié par LorDC, 31 octobre 2010 - 07:18 .

[Oblarg]

This does make Shepard and TIM seem a lot less ridiculous in their course of action, and would be loads better.



However, I don't think there's anything at all that could be done to make the Reapers seem less moronic short of a rewrite of the entire second game.

[Cheese Elemental]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. No "crew abduction". (It's a completely unnecessary and contrived plot device, that created a plot hole a few light years across. It pumped things up a little for the "ZOMG! collecterz gots da crew!" kids.) EDI could have been unshackled during the Collector Ship mission.

It showed that the Collectors/Reapers aren't just machines with no understanding of organics. In all likelyhood, they abducted the crew purely to get under Shepard's skin.

Plus, it reminded us of an anvil that always gets dropped: Reaper tech is dangerous.

2. Extended briefing with TIM before passing through the O-4 Relay. TIM saying that Cerberus tried sending probes in to no avail. Now the Normandy is the best option, because of the stealth, armament and QEC, which would allow him to monitor the progress of the mission in real-time. TIM putting it clearly that Shepard's primary objective is gathering intel. A hint that the "cavalry" will be called for in case there's something too big for Shepard to crack on his own.

That would run contrary to Shepard's mission in the first place. Shepard's mission was always to stop the Collectors.

3. No Normandy crashlanding on the C-Base. Instead, TIM coming up and requesting Shepard to board it and gather intel. At this point Shepard can bring up the idea of destroying the Base by the Normandy's BFBs - like the one used to blow up Teltin. TIM wins the conversation by suggesting that the fate of the abducted colonists must be investigated.

Goes against the idea of the endgame being a suicide mission. It's just you, your squad and the Normandy against a fortress packed with Collectors and sitting in the most dangerous region of the galaxy. Even Joker was hard-pressed to get through the debris field (and couldn't do it without actually smacking the Normandy around a bit).

4. The Team goes in, the Crew remains to defend perimeter around the Normandy, with one squadmate leading them, and they can all die or all live by the "suicide mission" mechanics.

What, a bunch of redshirts holding off the Collectors and their husk buddies? In a stationary ship?

Hell, the only reason the Normandy survived the landing was because the Collectors apparently didn't know they'd survived.

5. Better specialist roles. (As it's been actually implemented, the "tech expert" and "2nd fire team leader" make no sense whatsovever.) Also 2-3 mandatory deaths of random squadmates in the "hold the line" section, to make the mission truly "suicide". This could also determine Shepard's death: if the "hold the line" team all dies, Shepard is unable to withdraw to the Normandy and orders Joker to abandon him.

How could they be any better? Only the true tech experts can override the Collector security systems, only the best biotics can maintain the field, and only the best leaders can get the entire fireteam through.

Tali is considered a genius even amonst the quarians.
Kasumi is the galaxy's best thief and knows her way around security systems.
Legion is a walking supercomputer.

Samara rivals an asari matriach in terms of biotic strength.
Jack is the most powerful known human biotic.

Garrus has leadership experience in C-Sec and led a successful guerilla squad on Omega, only being defeated because of a traitor.
Miranda is a Cerberus nob and Shepard's XO. She didn't get to her rank because of her ****** and arse.
Jacob is a former marine, and has extensive experience working in a squad in addition to staying professional under pressure.
Zaeed and Samara are both unsuitable, as they're clearly 'lone wolf' characters. Zaeed in particular shows a tendency towards reckless actions and disregard for other people's safety (as evidenced by his loyalty mission).

6. Better dialogue during the final choice. (Shepard's reasoning for both destroying and keeping the Base sounds ridiculous.)

I think most people can agree on that.

Modifié par Cheese Elemental, 31 octobre 2010 - 09:45 .

[Oblarg]

I dislike the line of thinking that it should be a suicide mission for the sake of being a suicide mission. That's moronic, and is one of the reasons the plot is so weak.

[Cheese Elemental]

It's a suicide mission because all the odds are stacked against you. You're outnumbered, outgunned, and don't have any backup. It's just you and your squad.

Making it a super-organised operation would have removed all sense of desperation. It would have been like filing paperwork or something like that.

[Oblarg]

Cheese Elemental wrote...

It's a suicide mission because all the odds are stacked against you. You're outnumbered, outgunned, and don't have any backup. It's just you and your squad.
Making it a super-organised operation would have removed all sense of desperation. It would have been like filing paperwork or something like that.

The odds wouldn't be stacked against you if the course of action you took weren't so goddamn stupid.

[Cheese Elemental]

Oblarg wrote...

Cheese Elemental wrote...

It's a suicide mission because all the odds are stacked against you. You're outnumbered, outgunned, and don't have any backup. It's just you and your squad.
Making it a super-organised operation would have removed all sense of desperation. It would have been like filing paperwork or something like that.

The odds wouldn't be stacked against you if the course of action you took weren't so goddamn stupid.

Stupid? How so?

1. Shepard is pressed for time, so it's no wonder he/she is rushing things.
2. You hardly know anything about the Collector base. EDI could only gather so much information from the Collector ship.

[Oblarg]

Cheese Elemental wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

Cheese Elemental wrote...

It's a suicide mission because all the odds are stacked against you. You're outnumbered, outgunned, and don't have any backup. It's just you and your squad.
Making it a super-organised operation would have removed all sense of desperation. It would have been like filing paperwork or something like that.

The odds wouldn't be stacked against you if the course of action you took weren't so goddamn stupid.

Stupid? How so?

1. Shepard is pressed for time, so it's no wonder he/she is rushing things.
2. You hardly know anything about the Collector base. EDI could only gather so much information from the Collector ship.

Well, ignoring the fact that there's absolutely no urgency if you pay attention to the plot and realize that the Collectors could never succeed in the first place, there's still nothing that can justify strapping the IFF directly onto the Normandy and blindly flying through the relay solo.  That's just about the dumbest thing you could possibly do.  Why not duplicate the IFF and send probes through the relay to gather recon?  Why not send a fleet through the relay?  Anything but sending your best guy through the relay alone, with no intel, in a ship designed for stealth, not combat, with the intention of stopping the collectors is completely moronic.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

the suicide mission was crap... someone messed up the couplings and engines... leaving dampeners active, when they can easily disengage them... screw that crap.

the IFF is like replacing a sabotaged warp drive (dangerous move).

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 31 octobre 2010 - 10:21 .

[Babli]

Sounds too good to be true.

[Iakus]

I like it all, except for the random deaths. IF deaths are to me mandatory, I'd rather it be a choice on the part of the player. Kinda like Virmire, where you can save one squaddie or the other but not both. Or if you are to succeed at a quest objective, you have to send someone into what everyone knows is likely to be their death. (might add as aspect of "heroic sacrifice" or "valiant last stand" to the mission

Otherwise, this is in all ways superior to what we got.

Modifié par iakus, 01 novembre 2010 - 04:07 .

[frylock23]

I think there needed to be more missions to develop how great the odds against you were. Instead, we only got three Collector missions prior to the end and none of them felt particularly desparate. I think one or more of them needed to cause casualties in your squad which would necessitate all the recruiting and the redundancies in teammate function for the final mission.

And if you take casualties to your team in regular missions where the odds against you aren't so great, you start to feel like maybe that suicide mission might really be all it's been hyped up to be. Simply being told that "no one survives the O-4 Relay" just isn't enough. You need to play the experience by having the Collectors take your team to the woodshed once or twice first.

When watching the movie _Serenity_, you actually started to feel that the whole crew might die after Wash was taken out; it made that whole last fight intense.

Modifié par frylock23, 01 novembre 2010 - 12:45 .

[-Skorpious-]

I hated the suicide mission for many reasons



1) It derailed ME's incredible ending

2) It removed the main "enemy" from the plot

3) The Collector's were pitiful enemies that put up little resistance

4) It forced us to sit through hours of solving our teammates problems. While not necessarily a bad idea, Bioware ruined a great opportunity by not connecting each recruitment/loyalty to the main plot

5) It was way too short

6) Too easy. The choices were obvious, and it is actually harder to get your team killed as opposed to saving them all

[Mecha Tengu]

longer battle

better boss fight

some way to have a squad larger than 3

[Cra5y Pineapple]

The crew's abduction is not a plot hole. The Collectors were not trying to destory the ship but as TIM said it was meant to be a "Direct Insult."

[Moiaussi]

0. Shepard not calling it a suicide mission. He should have expressed confidence in himself and his crew, regardless of his personal threat assessment of the mission.

[ScooterPie88]

Uh...NO!

[Oblarg]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Uh...NO!

Thank you for your enlightening and well though-out response.

[ScooterPie88]

Well I was thinking about elaborating but figured it would be a waste of time to try and change the OP's mind in regards to what I thought was an idoitic idea. So I just stated my displeasure. Is that well thought out enough for you?

Modifié par ScooterPie88, 01 novembre 2010 - 03:03 .

[Oblarg]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Well I was thinking about elaborating but figured it would be a waste of time to try and change the OP's mind in regards to what I thought was an idoitic idea. So I just stated my displeasure. Is that well thought out enough for you?

Sure, but it's not going to make anyone take your post more seriously.