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SUICIDE MISSION. The way it'd make sense.


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#26
ScooterPie88

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Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Well I was thinking about elaborating but figured it would be a waste of time to try and change the OP's mind in regards to what I thought was an idoitic idea. So I just stated my displeasure. Is that well thought out enough for you?


Sure, but it's not going to make anyone take your post more seriously.



I'm sure to lose sleep over it I might just take it a step further and end my life now as it surely won't be worth living after this debacle.

Modifié par ScooterPie88, 01 novembre 2010 - 03:16 .


#27
Oblarg

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ScooterPie88 wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Well I was thinking about elaborating but figured it would be a waste of time to try and change the OP's mind in regards to what I thought was an idoitic idea. So I just stated my displeasure. Is that well thought out enough for you?


Sure, but it's not going to make anyone take your post more seriously.



I'm sure to lose sleep over it I might just take it a step further and end my life now as it surely won't be worth living after this debacle.


Perhaps not, but it does make one wonder why you'd even bother posting if you honestly don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

#28
Talthanar

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I disagree with mandatory deaths. Highly conditional deaths however is just fine. How to do so: have every squaddie with specialized armor/weapon/skill and have to get them all for them to survive.

#29
Isaidlunch

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Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

The crew's abduction is not a
plot hole. The Collectors were not trying to destory the ship but as TIM
said it was meant to be a "Direct Insult."


Not just the abduction was a plot hole, the whole situation Bioware created to make it possible was ridiculous. Surely Miranda + Shep would have realised what a bad idea it was to take every single squadmate with
them? Why do such a thing when an alien program has just been installed
within the ship, almost certain to contain a virus? And by far the
biggest plot hole, what exactly is the mission? There's no reason for Shepard + squad
to do anything but wait around for the IFF to be installed so they can go through the O4 relay ASAP.

And just why wouldn't they destroy the ship? Destroying the ship would've set him back greatly and still caused Shepard emotional distress (probably much more). The only reason to kidnap them would be to get 30 or so more humans for their Reaper baby but I'm sure they could make do without them, especially if it means taking a stupid risk.

To whoever said no without giving any reasons, why bother posting anything? Until you give reasons you're just trolling.

Modifié par Kazanth, 01 novembre 2010 - 06:06 .


#30
GodWood

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ScooterPie88 wrote...
Uh...NO!

please elaborate.

#31
Guest_Shandepared_*

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

5. Better specialist roles. (As it's been actually implemented, the "tech expert" and "2nd fire team leader" make no sense whatsovever.) Also 2-3 mandatory deaths of random squadmates in the "hold the line" section, to make the mission truly "suicide". This could also determine Shepard's death: if the "hold the line" team all dies, Shepard is unable to withdraw to the Normandy and orders Joker to abandon him.


No, there shouldn't be anything random about it. I'd make at least two deaths mandatory, but I'd script those deaths to be suitably epic and meaningiful. Personally I think Garrus is a prime candidate, but I'm not sure about the others. Garrus is a character players care about, he's a character that most Shepard's care about. He's been with you a long time and losing him would have a serious effect on the tone of the mission for most people. His death in the actual game if he is not loyal and leads the second fire team is about how I'd do it, only drawn out a little more.

As for the other... I'm thinking Mordin or Thane.

#32
Moiaussi

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For that matter ,why not install it on the shuttle instead of on the Normandy? If they had to actually install it rather than black box it?

#33
Lunatic LK47

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Shandepared wrote...


No, there shouldn't be anything random about it. I'd make at least two deaths mandatory, but I'd script those deaths to be suitably epic and meaningiful. Personally I think Garrus is a prime candidate, but I'm not sure about the others. Garrus is a character players care about, he's a character that most Shepard's care about. He's been with you a long time and losing him would have a serious effect on the tone of the mission for most people. His death in the actual game if he is not loyal and leads the second fire team is about how I'd do it, only drawn out a little more.

As for the other... I'm thinking Mordin or Thane.


As long as Garrus can survive if loyal, I wouldn't have a problem with it. As for choosing between Mordin or Thane, Thane's sickness should be axed if they were to go in this direction, otherwise everyone would just pick Mordin every time.

#34
Guest_Shandepared_*

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Lunatic LK47 wrote...

As long as Garrus can survive if loyal, I wouldn't have a problem with it.


I don't think you understood my post.

#35
Lunatic LK47

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Shandepared wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

As long as Garrus can survive if loyal, I wouldn't have a problem with it.


I don't think you understood my post.


Oh, if you mean making Garrus's death mandatory without any hope of saving him? I wouldn't have bought the game after dealing with the bull**** "No matter what  you choose, you will lose" attitude Fallout 3 had. Look at 24 the
series: They killed off most of the main veteran cast members in the fifth Season just for the sake of
shock value, and the manner in which the main supporting characters died was outright bull**** up to the point the fans got pissed off and majorly annoyed about it. I'm glad BioWare stayed out of falling in a similar pit.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:27 .


#36
Chaota Vos

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I think Cheese Elemental described my feelings on this thread pretty well.  The only suggestion I really agree with is #6, the Paragon response was eye-rollingly silly, but then a lot of the Paragon responses in ME2 are pretty high-horsed and cringing.

I suppose my biggest disagreement is with #5, simply because I can't really think of  how the specialist roles could be "improved" at all; all the tasks  seemed logical to me, they used suitable candidates and weren't hamfisted into the situation.  Also the whole "squad deaths" is already in place.  If you don't want characters to survive then just don't do the loyalty missions.  As it is, (ideally) you have the best operatives that the galaxy has to offer, they're as upgraded as they can possibly be and they're all 100% focused on the task at hand.  

I don't think the suicide mission is meant to be a literal "you're all definately going to die" situation,  it's more of a "if anyone's going to be able to pull this off, it'll be you guys" deal. 

#37
GodWood

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Lunatic LK47 wrote...
Oh, if you mean making Garrus's death mandatory without any hope of saving him? I wouldn't have bought the game after dealing with the bull**** ".

How childish.

#38
Big I

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What would have made it better? If the Collectors had more than one ship.



Seriously, one ship? That's what was threatening the galaxy? One alien cruiser?

#39
ScooterPie88

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GodWood wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...
Uh...NO!

please elaborate.


Just to eliminate any further confusion I think the OP's ideas are stupid in principal and disagree on all counts.  I think the ending was fine the way it was.

#40
Oblarg

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ScooterPie88 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...
Uh...NO!

please elaborate.


Just to eliminate any further confusion I think the OP's ideas are stupid in principal and disagree on all counts.  I think the ending was fine the way it was.


That wasn't elaboration.

#41
Bourne Endeavor

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ScooterPie88 wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Well I was thinking about elaborating but figured it would be a waste of time to try and change the OP's mind in regards to what I thought was an idoitic idea. So I just stated my displeasure. Is that well thought out enough for you?


Sure, but it's not going to make anyone take your post more seriously.



I'm sure to lose sleep over it I might just take it a step further and end my life now as it surely won't be worth living after this debacle.


Really, and it is not even my birthday? Wow, such a wonderful present, the loss of a troll. Now if all wastes of space were so generous.

----

To be blunt, I find a large portion of your suggestion to render the mission relatively monotonous. Reconnaissance can be intense, with a potential feeling of uncertainty, yet still accomplish the necessities of intel gathering. In the scenario you have depicted, I nary once feel a sense of dread and am devoid of that intense - this could be the end - sensation.

The crash, for example, affixed the mood and establishes the "no going back" aspect of the mission. Furthermore, it has every relevance to the situation since the Normandy was discovered by those Oculus and thus had to dodge them, hence the inevitable crash landing. We are in agreement in regards to the crew abduction angle. That was both pretentious and an insult to my intelligence. Between two games Shepard has always ventured into the planet/ship with two squadmates; the partial exception was Virmire, albeit he arrived before everyone else. Therefore, this abrupt plot angle demanding everyone abandon the Normandy was contrived enough. What made this angle embarrassing was that everyone, including Miranda and especially EDI, found no qualm in leaving the Normandy unprotected when dangerous Reaper technology was being scanned.

This aspect alone having a rewrite could have heavily impacted the Suicide Mission. The possible options available would be a potential firefight aboard the Normandy, where Shepard must move with haste to prevent the crew's abduction, or perhaps some of your squad is abducted with the crew, thus we are devoid of this idiotic "everyone get out of dodge!" angle. Another scenario is a combination of the two, where your actions aboard the Normandy firefight can effect who is and is not captured. Miranda is held in her office shooting hordes of Collectors, yet the Medical Bay is under siege. You have the option to either save the crew hold up in the Medical Bay or run to Miranda's defense. Mordin has developed a potential weapon that will incinerate Collectors throughout the second level of the Normandy, yet using this results in all crew on that level following an identical fate, not using it means Mordin is captured.

That would have been a phenomenal mission, rich with intensity and crippling choices and would have remedied the plotholes or utter lack of logic we were instead left with.

Personally, I found nothing amiss about the Specialist roles. A Tech Expert was necessary to override the door once we reached the inner sanctum of the Collector Ship, and a team leader was needed to provide a suitable decoy. Mandatory squad death is merely an elaborate veil to force replayability as far as I am concerned. Should our squad return in ME3 - which I am aware you heavily disagree will happen, an opinion I unfortunately share - we would be forced to replay ME2 and ME3 numerous times to assure all content is allotted for our viewing pleasure. Perhaps more irksome would be automated deaths that would entail tedious grind result files. With this said, I would fancy the difficulty in retaining all your squad being exceptionally high, especially on Insanity. The choices were beyond simplistic, to the extent you had to go out of your way to lose a squadmate. When you must dedicate an entire file as your "Suicide File", the realization the suicide options were laughable in execution is apparent for all to see. The length of the mission should have doubled with an endless array of sub missions, for lack of a better term, where if Shepard was not fast enough, did not perform a specific task, a squadmate would die. Leave keeping Shepard alive, easy and for each squadmate life, the difficulty is higher. If you desire a perfect completion, you will have one extreme mission on your hands.

Reward dedication and hard work, twin aspects Bioware neglected by appealing to those incapable of appreciate you must not be perfect in your first file.

A rewrite of the dialogue need not be discussed. It is implied upon mention of the Suicide Mission. The lines felt cliched and overused in other media. Frankly, I question the whole "Rally" while in the midst of Collector warfare.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 01 novembre 2010 - 03:26 .


#42
ScooterPie88

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Bourne Endeavor wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Well I was thinking about elaborating but figured it would be a waste of time to try and change the OP's mind in regards to what I thought was an idoitic idea. So I just stated my displeasure. Is that well thought out enough for you?


Sure, but it's not going to make anyone take your post more seriously.



I'm sure to lose sleep over it I might just take it a step further and end my life now as it surely won't be worth living after this debacle.


Really, and it is not even my birthday? Wow, such a wonderful present, the loss of a troll. Now if all wastes of space were so generous.

----

To be blunt, I find a large portion of your suggestion to render the mission relatively monotonous. Reconnaissance can be intense, with a potential feeling of uncertainty, yet still accomplish the necessities of intel gathering. In the scenario you have depicted, I nary once feel a sense of dread and am devoid of that intense - this could be the end - sensation.

The crash, for example, affixed the mood and establishes the "no going back" aspect of the mission. Furthermore, it has every relevance to the situation since the Normandy was discovered by those Oculus and thus had to dodge them, hence the inevitable crash landing. We are in agreement in regards to the crew abduction angle. That was both pretentious and an insult to my intelligence. Between two games Shepard has always ventured into the planet/ship with two squadmates; the partial exception was Virmire, albeit he arrived before everyone else. Therefore, this abrupt plot angle demanding everyone abandon the Normandy was contrived enough. What made this angle embarrassing was that everyone, including Miranda and especially EDI, found no qualm in leaving the Normandy unprotected when dangerous Reaper technology was being scanned.

This aspect alone having a rewrite could have heavily impacted the Suicide Mission. The possible options available would be a potential firefight aboard the Normandy, where Shepard must move with haste to prevent the crew's abduction, or perhaps some of your squad is abducted with the crew, thus we are devoid of this idiotic "everyone get out of dodge!" angle. Another scenario is a combination of the two, where your actions aboard the Normandy firefight can effect who is and is not captured. Miranda is held in her office shooting hordes of Collectors, yet the Medical Bay is under siege. You have the option to either save the crew hold up in the Medical Bay or run to Miranda's defense. Mordin has developed a potential weapon that will incinerate Collectors throughout the second level of the Normandy, yet using this results in all crew on that level following an identical fate, not using it means Mordin is captured.

That would have been a phenomenal mission, rich with intensity and crippling choices and would have remedied the plotholes or utter lack of logic we were instead left with.

Personally, I found nothing amiss about the Specialist roles. A Tech Expert was necessary to override the door once we reached the inner sanctum of the Collector Ship, and a team leader was needed to provide a suitable decoy. Mandatory squad death is merely an elaborate veil to force replayability as far as I am concerned. Should our squad return in ME3 - which I am aware you heavily disagree will happen, an opinion I unfortunately share - we would be forced to replay ME2 and ME3 numerous times to assure all content is allotted for our viewing pleasure. Perhaps more irksome would be automated deaths that would entail tedious grind result files. With this said, I would fancy the difficulty in retaining all your squad being exceptionally high, especially on Insanity. The choices were beyond simplistic, to the extent you had to go out of your way to lose a squadmate. When you must dedicate an entire file as your "Suicide File", the realization the suicide options were laughable in execution is apparent for all to see. The length of the mission should have doubled with an endless array of sub missions, for lack of a better term, where if Shepard was not fast enough, did not perform a specific task, a squadmate would die. Leave keeping Shepard alive, easy and for each squadmate life, the difficulty is higher. If you desire a perfect completion, you will have one extreme mission on your hands.

Reward dedication and hard work, twin aspects Bioware neglected by appealing to those incapable of appreciate you must not be perfect in your first file.

A rewrite of the dialogue need not be discussed. It is implied upon mention of the Suicide Mission. The lines felt cliched and overused in other media. Frankly, I question the whole "Rally" while in the midst of Collector warfare.


This is what I love about arguing on the internet it's like the special olympics; even if you win you're still a retard.  I realize I'm insulting myself as well but why not if I get to insult everyone else with me.

#43
Oblarg

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ScooterPie88 wrote...
This is what I love about arguing on the internet it's like the special olympics; even if you win you're still a retard.  I realize I'm insulting myself as well but why not if I get to insult everyone else with me.


What a wonderful attitude.

#44
ScooterPie88

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Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...
Uh...NO!

please elaborate.


Just to eliminate any further confusion I think the OP's ideas are stupid in principal and disagree on all counts.  I think the ending was fine the way it was.


That wasn't elaboration.



Okay since you seem to still be uncomprehending let me go over each of the OPs points in turn and say why I think they are stupid.

1. No "crew abduction". (It's a completely unnecessary and contrived plot device, that created a plot hole a few light years across. It pumped things up a little for the "ZOMG! collecterz gots da crew!" kids.) EDI could have been unshackled during the Collector Ship mission.

Crew abduction gave me extra motivation to want to do the final mission.  Not that I didn't want to already I just thought it was icing on the cake.

2. Extended briefing with TIM before passing through the O-4 Relay. TIM saying that Cerberus tried sending probes in to no avail. Now the Normandy is the best option, because of the stealth, armament and QEC, which would allow him to monitor the progress of the mission in real-time. TIM putting it clearly that Shepard's primary objective is gathering intel. A hint that the "cavalry" will be called for in case there's something too big for Shepard to crack on his own.

Talking to TIM is annoying and would be pointless.

3. No Normandy crashlanding on the C-Base. Instead, TIM coming up and requesting Shepard to board it and gather intel. At this point Shepard can bring up the idea of destroying the Base by the Normandy's BFBs - like the one used to blow up Teltin. TIM wins the conversation by suggesting that the fate of the abducted colonists must be investigated.

The crash landing emphasized how close the Normandy came to destruction.  It also gave Shepard the element of surprise as the Collectors' external scanners did not differentiate between the Normandy and the outside of the base.

4. The Team goes in, the Crew remains to defend perimeter around the Normandy, with one squadmate leading them, and they can all die or all live by the "suicide mission" mechanics.

You didn't gather the galaxy's best individuals to stay on guard duty.

5. Better specialist roles. (As it's been actually implemented, the "tech expert" and "2nd fire team leader" make no sense whatsovever.) Also 2-3 mandatory deaths of random squadmates in the "hold the line" section, to make the mission truly "suicide". This could also determine Shepard's death: if the "hold the line" team all dies, Shepard is unable to withdraw to the Normandy and orders Joker to abandon him.

The specialist roles are fine.  What was wrong with having tech experts be the ones to hack a computer.  Should we have sent Jack instead.  Or had Jack be a leader when she's worked solo for most of her life.

6. Better dialogue during the final choice. (Shepard's reasoning for both destroying and keeping the Base sounds ridiculous.)

I don't see any problem with the dialogue it should be left alone as it was consistent with the rest of dialogue throughout the game.

Now was that really necessary?  Or could I just have summed it up by saying his ideas all sucked.

#45
Oblarg

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ScooterPie88 wrote...

Talking to TIM is annoying and would be pointless.


"Man, plot sucks, who cares about that?  Just give me more things to shoot!"

#46
cachx

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Zulu_DFA wrote...
1. No "crew abduction". (It's a completely unnecessary and contrived plot device, that created a plot hole a few light years across. It pumped things up a little for the "ZOMG! collecterz gots da crew!" kids.) EDI could have been unshackled during the Collector Ship mission.

The only thing iffy about the abduction is how it triggers. The sequence itself is great, it takes you by surprise, in a great twist you get to play as joker, and gives us a credible reason to unshackle EDI. It also makes the war more 'personal'.

2. Extended briefing with TIM before passing through the O-4 Relay. TIM saying that Cerberus tried sending probes in to no avail. Now the Normandy is the best option, because of the stealth, armament and QEC, which would allow him to monitor the progress of the mission in real-time. TIM putting it clearly that Shepard's primary objective is gathering intel. A hint that the "cavalry" will be called for in case there's something too big for Shepard to crack on his own.

Mass Effect 2, the new exciting intergalactic action game were you recruit the deadliest team to cross to the unknown and... skulk around, scanning for information! Uh, no. Besides I thought it was already established that stealth doesn't do much agains reaper tech. They managed to sneak on the Normandy TWICE.

3. No Normandy crashlanding on the C-Base. Instead, TIM coming up and requesting Shepard to board it and gather intel. At this point Shepard can bring up the idea of destroying the Base by the Normandy's BFBs - like the one used to blow up Teltin. TIM wins the conversation by suggesting that the fate of the abducted colonists must be investigated.

But we do board it, and gather intel anyways. Via rescuing the crew and finding out they were creating a reaper, plus whatever is on that datapad during the ending sequence.

4. The Team goes in, the Crew remains to defend perimeter around the Normandy, with one squadmate leading them, and they can all die or all live by the "suicide mission" mechanics.

Well this only happens in your paralell universe were there was not an abduction. Still that leaves us with two "hold the line" scenarios going on at the same time... that's not good.

5. Better specialist roles. (As it's been actually implemented, the "tech expert" and "2nd fire team leader" make no sense whatsovever.) Also 2-3 mandatory deaths of random squadmates in the "hold the line" section, to make the mission truly "suicide". This could also determine Shepard's death: if the "hold the line" team all dies, Shepard is unable to withdraw to the Normandy and orders Joker to abandon him.

Not make sense, how?. Randomizing deaths is idiotic, and force death by decision would be a ME1 rehash.Something like that should be based on player's decions and performance, ot left to random chance. It's called Suicide Mission because no one has returned from a Omega 4 trip, but Shep as a chance to be the first. As a player, you shouldn't be denied the chance of a 'perfect ending'.

6. Better dialogue during the final choice. (Shepard's reasoning for both destroying and keeping the Base sounds ridiculous.)

Yeah sure, why not? I can always enjoy more dialogue.

#47
Lunatic LK47

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GodWood wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...
Oh, if you mean making Garrus's death mandatory without any hope of saving him? I wouldn't have bought the game after dealing with the bull**** ".

How childish.


Way to take it out of context, ******.

#48
Pacifien

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Either keep it civil or be banned, your choice.

#49
ScooterPie88

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Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Talking to TIM is annoying and would be pointless.


"Man, plot sucks, who cares about that?  Just give me more things to shoot!"


I didn't say that don't try to put words in my mouth.  I simply stated that I do not particulary enjoy talking to TIM and further that it would be a waste of time to have an extended conversation at that juncture.

#50
curly haired boy

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mandatory deaths do the opposite of making people care more about their squad. on the contrary, if you're guaranteed to lose someone, you have LESS reason to talk to them, use them on missions, upgrade their stuff, gain their loyalty...



any promise of greater emotional impact is completely false.