210 réponses à ce sujet

[ScooterPie88]

curly haired boy wrote...

mandatory deaths do the opposite of making people care more about their squad. on the contrary, if you're guaranteed to lose someone, you have LESS reason to talk to them, use them on missions, upgrade their stuff, gain their loyalty...

any promise of greater emotional impact is completely false.

^This

[Oblarg]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Talking to TIM is annoying and would be pointless.

"Man, plot sucks, who cares about that?  Just give me more things to shoot!"

I didn't say that don't try to put words in my mouth.  I simply stated that I do not particulary enjoy talking to TIM and further that it would be a waste of time to have an extended conversation at that juncture.

The proposed conversation with TIM makes the Normandy going through the relay solo a lot less absurd than it was in the actual game.

[D.Sharrah]

Zulu-



You know...I don't always agree with your viewpoints, but I do appreciate the passion that you have for the game and I love the desire that you have to make the game better.



That being said, on this one you have me on the fence. I think that you (and many others on the forums) have justly pointed out that the "suicide mission" could have been much better. But as others have said I do not think that it was game breaking.



Some of the things that I think would have worked (and made the experience better):



1. More choices like Virmire

2. A clear committment from Bioware that the characters that you develop and cultivate will be with you in the next game. Without this, there is no reason to become attached to the characters and the "Virmire like choices" would not carry weight.

3. Better continuity with the IFF/crew kidnapping - I think the biggest break for me is that I never have any "missions" to leave for yet I still leave. Give me an equally important mission to do.

4. Split the squad - instead of just controlling Joker, this was Bioware's chance to give you the option to control a fan favorite - pick a three man squad to stay with the ship - pick a team leader and play as the character (who would you play as?)



That's all I can think of off the top of my head...but there is probably more rattling around in there somewhere.

[ScooterPie88]

Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Talking to TIM is annoying and would be pointless.

"Man, plot sucks, who cares about that?  Just give me more things to shoot!"

I didn't say that don't try to put words in my mouth.  I simply stated that I do not particulary enjoy talking to TIM and further that it would be a waste of time to have an extended conversation at that juncture.

The proposed conversation with TIM makes the Normandy going through the relay solo a lot less absurd than it was in the actual game.

While I don't think the Normandy should have had to go it alone it is explained why it did.  No one else in the Galaxy was interested in doing anything about the Collectors.  This point had been driven home throughout the whole game if one pays even the least bit of attention.  The Alliance didn't like the Collectors but did not possess the IFF and anyway they were too blinded by Cerberus to help you.  The Council? Please we know their attitiude.  All of these facts add up to make an expanded conversation with a spoon feed explanation unnecessary and redundent. 

[AdamNW]

I like how you are trying to improve the suicide mission and suggested mandatory random deaths.

Although I do think that the deaths should have been harder to avoid, but not seem so random.

Modifié par AdamNW, 02 novembre 2010 - 03:10 .

[Oblarg]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

While I don't think the Normandy should have had to go it alone it is explained why it did.  No one else in the Galaxy was interested in doing anything about the Collectors.  This point had been driven home throughout the whole game if one pays even the least bit of attention.  The Alliance didn't like the Collectors but did not possess the IFF and anyway they were too blinded by Cerberus to help you.  The Council? Please we know their attitiude.  All of these facts add up to make an expanded conversation with a spoon feed explanation unnecessary and redundent. 

If Cerebrus has such limitless resources they could have at least send more than one ship through the relay, especially as the Normandy isn't built for combat.  But before anything they should have duplicated the IFF and sent probes through the relay to gather intel.  Sending your best guy blindly at the opposition is a terrible strategy.

The entire ending sequence is too contrived to make any sense in its current state.  Really though, I think the best solution for the game's plot inconsistensies would be to simply rewrite the entire damn plot so it doesn't suck so much, but that's pretty unfeasable.

[AdamNW]

What makes you so sure that the IFF could have been duplicated?

[Oblarg]

AdamNW wrote...

What makes you so sure that the IFF could have been duplicated?

The fact that it is duplicated if you get the Shepard dies/base not blown up ending?

[ScooterPie88]

Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

While I don't think the Normandy should have had to go it alone it is explained why it did.  No one else in the Galaxy was interested in doing anything about the Collectors.  This point had been driven home throughout the whole game if one pays even the least bit of attention.  The Alliance didn't like the Collectors but did not possess the IFF and anyway they were too blinded by Cerberus to help you.  The Council? Please we know their attitiude.  All of these facts add up to make an expanded conversation with a spoon feed explanation unnecessary and redundent. 

If Cerebrus has such limitless resources they could have at least send more than one ship through the relay, especially as the Normandy isn't built for combat.  But before anything they should have duplicated the IFF and sent probes through the relay to gather intel.  Sending your best guy blindly at the opposition is a terrible strategy.

The entire ending sequence is too contrived to make any sense in its current state.  Really though, I think the best solution for the game's plot inconsistensies would be to simply rewrite the entire damn plot so it doesn't suck so much, but that's pretty unfeasable.

Cerberus has lots of money and agents it is never stated that they have a fleet of ships any more or even equally equiped for combat.  Also your crew is taken there is not time for more recon.  I don't know why you would say the Normandy is unequiped for combat.  Even when not upgraded it is able to take a Collector ship (just not as eloquently).

It is now clear that you are just another of the "ME2's plot sucked" variety.  I grow weary of this sentiment and while it is perfectly okay for you to have those feelings I would much prefer you and those like you keep it to yourself as your disenginous assersations add very little to conversation and are unfounded as indicated by the vast amount of positive reviews and awards ME2 has recieved and its legions of fans. 

Modifié par ScooterPie88, 02 novembre 2010 - 03:26 .

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Moiaussi wrote...

0. Shepard not calling it a suicide mission. He should have expressed confidence in himself and his crew, regardless of his personal threat assessment of the mission.

Shepard can express this if you select the "renegade" option once you've landed on the collector base.  Shep says something to the effect of how he/she has no plans on dying there.

[Oblarg]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

It is now clear that you are just another of the "ME2's plot sucked" variety.  I grow weary of this sentiment and while it is perfectly okay for you to have those feelings I would much prefer you and those like you keep it to yourself as your disenginous assersations add very little to conversation and are unfounded as indicated by the vast amount of positive reviews and awards ME2 has recieved and its legions of fans. 

I have every right to post my opinion.  This board is for discussion of the game, which is not synonymous with praise for the game.  If you don't agree, that's fine, but telling people not to voice their opinions simply because they're not the opinions held by the majority of the fans is childish.

[ScooterPie88]

Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

It is now clear that you are just another of the "ME2's plot sucked" variety.  I grow weary of this sentiment and while it is perfectly okay for you to have those feelings I would much prefer you and those like you keep it to yourself as your disenginous assersations add very little to conversation and are unfounded as indicated by the vast amount of positive reviews and awards ME2 has recieved and its legions of fans. 

I have every right to post my opinion.  This board is for discussion of the game, which is not synonymous with praise for the game.  If you don't agree, that's fine, but telling people not to voice their opinions simply because they're not the opinions held by the majority of the fans is childish.

Oh I'm not disputing you have the right to do it.  I have the right to come over to someone in a restaurant and fart on their entree; there's no rules against that.  But you see I don't do that because it's not good manners.  Manners would go a long way in this situation.  So would logic.  If you do not like something why do you continue to talk about it?  Why not simply ignore it in its entirity.  Trolling is an unwelcome practice. 

(+8 internets if you get the movie reference used in this post)

Modifié par ScooterPie88, 02 novembre 2010 - 03:35 .

[Isaidlunch]

ScooterPie88 wrote...
It is now clear that you are just another of the "ME2's plot sucked" variety.  I grow weary of this sentiment and while it is perfectly okay for you to have those feelings I would much prefer you and those like you keep it to yourself as your disenginous assersations add very little to conversation and are unfounded as indicated by the vast amount of positive reviews and awards ME2 has recieved and its legions of fans. 

Positive reviews from websites like IGN that praise Gears of War clones + a large fanbase =/= a good plot

And people who dare to complain about a game when something is wrong with it add much more to the discussion then people who blindly praise a game and ignore its faults.

Edit: Well this thread just got a lot more awkard:?

Modifié par Kazanth, 02 novembre 2010 - 03:41 .

[Oblarg]

ScooterPie88 wrote...


Oh I'm not disputing you have the right to do it.  I have the right to come over to someone in a restaurant and fart on their entree; there's no rules against that.

Oh come on, is that really the best analogy you can come up with?

I'm not even sure how I'd respond to someone who is so obviously unprepared to deal with people who simply don't agree with him.

[ScooterPie88]

Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...


Oh I'm not disputing you have the right to do it.  I have the right to come over to someone in a restaurant and fart on their entree; there's no rules against that.

Oh come on, is that really the best analogy you can come up with?

I'm not even sure how I'd respond to someone who is so obviously unprepared to deal with people who simply don't agree with him.

Unprepared?  I felt that my reply was perfectly suited to your belly aching over "your rights."  You continue to perpetuate some kind of fued that only exists in your head.  Every time I make a post you're there.  It's like the bad penny that always turns up.  You see you think that "dealing" with people means have nasty arguments.  Hopefully you learn that most people find this to be unwelcome trait.  I hope you grow out of it as it really is an awful habit that will not serve you well in whatever professional career you choose.

Back on topic.  I don't feel that the final mission was contrived any more than in ME1.  We have an enemy; our only way to eliminate this enemy is invade their territory and defeat them on their own terms once and for all.  To wait not only endangers our abducted crew but also presents the possibilty of further attacks by said enemy without any way of predicting the location.  Even with TIM's information and resources he is not omnipotent.  He can guess where the next attack will be but that is all.  Even if the guess is right the dangers are far too great as even if the Collector ship is destroyed the base remains allowing the Collectors to continue their experiments and further aid the Reaper cause. 

Modifié par ScooterPie88, 02 novembre 2010 - 03:53 .

[Oblarg]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...


Oh I'm not disputing you have the right to do it.  I have the right to come over to someone in a restaurant and fart on their entree; there's no rules against that.

Oh come on, is that really the best analogy you can come up with?

I'm not even sure how I'd respond to someone who is so obviously unprepared to deal with people who simply don't agree with him.

Unprepared?  I felt that my reply was perfectly suited to your belly aching over "your rights."  You continue to perpetuate some kind of fued that only exists in your head.  Every time I make a post you're there.  It's like the bad penny that always turns up.  You see you think that "dealing" with people means have nasty arguments.  Hopefully you learn that most people find this to be unwelcome trait.  I hope you grow out of it as it really is an aweful habit that will not serve you well in whatever professional career you choose.

Back on topic.  I don't feel that the final mission was contrived any more than in ME1.  We have an enemy; our only way to eliminate this enemy is invade their territory and defeat them on their own terms once and for all.  To wait not only endangers our abducted crew but also presents the possibilty of further attacks by said enemy without any way of predicting the location.  Even with TIM's information and resources he is not omnipotent.  He can guess where the next attack will be but that is all.  Even if the guess is right the dangers are far too great as if the Collector ship is destroyed the base remains allowing the Collectors to continue their experiments and further aid the Reaper cause. 

I'm going to ignore the first part of your post, as it pretty much amounts to nothing more than "I don't like reading opinions that I don't agree with, therefore you're a jerk."

The course of action you took in the final mission in ME1 was about as logical as was possible given the circumstances.  The course of action you took in the final mission of ME2 was completely absurd - you find a reaper IFF, and before studying it or trying to duplicate it, you strap it directly onto your ship.  After the unsurprising aftermath (in which the Collectors kidnap your crew, yet for some reaosn don't destroy your ship), you head straight through the relay, alone.  Then it just so happens that the collectors have a grand total of a handful of drones and one cruiser to fight you, and you can destroy that cruiser even with an unupgraded ship.  It's absolutely laughable to the point of breaking immersion.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Kazanth wrote...
Positive reviews from websites like IGN that praise Gears of War clones + a large fanbase =/= a good plot

It doesn't mean a bad plot either.

[Oblarg]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Kazanth wrote...
Positive reviews from websites like IGN that praise Gears of War clones + a large fanbase =/= a good plot

It doesn't mean a bad plot either.

No one said it does.

ME2 has a bad plot because it has a bad plot, not because it received positive reviews from IGN.

[ScooterPie88]

Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...


Oh I'm not disputing you have the right to do it.  I have the right to come over to someone in a restaurant and fart on their entree; there's no rules against that.

Oh come on, is that really the best analogy you can come up with?

I'm not even sure how I'd respond to someone who is so obviously unprepared to deal with people who simply don't agree with him.

Unprepared?  I felt that my reply was perfectly suited to your belly aching over "your rights."  You continue to perpetuate some kind of fued that only exists in your head.  Every time I make a post you're there.  It's like the bad penny that always turns up.  You see you think that "dealing" with people means have nasty arguments.  Hopefully you learn that most people find this to be unwelcome trait.  I hope you grow out of it as it really is an aweful habit that will not serve you well in whatever professional career you choose.

Back on topic.  I don't feel that the final mission was contrived any more than in ME1.  We have an enemy; our only way to eliminate this enemy is invade their territory and defeat them on their own terms once and for all.  To wait not only endangers our abducted crew but also presents the possibilty of further attacks by said enemy without any way of predicting the location.  Even with TIM's information and resources he is not omnipotent.  He can guess where the next attack will be but that is all.  Even if the guess is right the dangers are far too great as if the Collector ship is destroyed the base remains allowing the Collectors to continue their experiments and further aid the Reaper cause. 

I'm going to ignore the first part of your post, as it pretty much amounts to nothing more than "I don't like reading opinions that I don't agree with, therefore you're a jerk."

The course of action you took in the final mission in ME1 was about as logical as was possible given the circumstances.  The course of action you took in the final mission of ME2 was completely absurd - you find a reaper IFF, and before studying it or trying to duplicate it, you strap it directly onto your ship.  After the unsurprising aftermath (in which the Collectors kidnap your crew, yet for some reaosn don't destroy your ship), you head straight through the relay, alone.  Then it just so happens that the collectors have a grand total of a handful of drones and one cruiser to fight you, and you can destroy that cruiser even with an unupgraded ship.  It's absolutely laughable to the point of breaking immersion.

I was more immersed in ME2 than in ME1's inventory fueled nightmare.

Off subject my post said nothing about not having differing opinions.  It simply stated that your propensity to turn minor disagreements into full scale pissing contests with borderline cyberstalking was unwelcome.  Different opions are what makes discussion possible and therefore necessary.  I just ask that it be conducted in a civil way.

[Isaidlunch]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Kazanth wrote...
Positive reviews from websites like IGN that praise Gears of War clones + a large fanbase =/= a good plot

It doesn't mean a bad plot either.

Of course, while it had its flaws ME2's plot was far from bad (IN MY OPINION). I just think that if someone is going to state that ME2 had a perfect plot that they give reasons why and not just point to biased reviews or how big the games' fanbase is.

Modifié par Kazanth, 02 novembre 2010 - 04:12 .

[ScooterPie88]

Kazanth wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Kazanth wrote...
Positive reviews from websites like IGN that praise Gears of War clones + a large fanbase =/= a good plot

It doesn't mean a bad plot either.

Of course, while it had its flaws ME2's plot was far from bad. I just think that if someone is going to state that ME2 had a perfect plot that they give reasons why and not just point to biased reviews or how big the games' fanbase is.

Oh I don't think it was perfect but then again no human endevour is.  Star Trek, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings all the great epics have plot inconsistances both major and minor.  I just didn't feel that any of ME2's plot consistances were a game/immersion braker though.

Modifié par ScooterPie88, 02 novembre 2010 - 04:13 .

[Moiaussi]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

0. Shepard not calling it a suicide mission. He should have expressed confidence in himself and his crew, regardless of his personal threat assessment of the mission.

Shepard can express this if you select the "renegade" option once you've landed on the collector base.  Shep says something to the effect of how he/she has no plans on dying there.

Yeah, maybe, but the whole lead up he calls it a suicide mission. Also, while 'I am not going to die here' might be a standard renegade line, 'We stick together and we are all making it through this. No man gets left behind' is a classic paragon line.

[Giggles_Manically]

I dont think there should have been MANDATORY deaths.

That would be just lame.



It should have been much harder to get people out alive, and loyalty should have acted as more of a plot device rather than plot armor.



I would have liked more crew squabbles and unless you solved them the team would not work as well together.

[Lunatic LK47]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

curly haired boy wrote...

mandatory deaths do the opposite of making people care more about their squad. on the contrary, if you're guaranteed to lose someone, you have LESS reason to talk to them, use them on missions, upgrade their stuff, gain their loyalty...

any promise of greater emotional impact is completely false.

^This

Seconded.

[GodWood]

It annoys me most would prefer a fairy tale where the "good guys" win with no consequences.

I want companions I care for to die, people I love to betray me, choices I made to completely **** up and not simply because I picked all the stupidest possible options (ala suicide mission)