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SUICIDE MISSION. The way it'd make sense.


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#76
Lunatic LK47

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GodWood wrote...

It annoys me most would prefer a fairy tale where the "good guys" win with no consequences.
I want companions I care for to die, people I love to betray me, choices I made to completely **** up and not simply because I picked all the stupidest possible options (ala suicide mission)


It annoys me most would prefer a nihilistic story where beloved characters die for no reason other than for the sake of shock value in the most contrived manner possible. I want moments where I felt like I achieved something when completing the game and not be branded a "loser" with bull**** consequences of "Path A and Path B will make you lose either way" just because I completed tasks in the game.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 02 novembre 2010 - 06:29 .


#77
GodWood

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Lunatic LK47 wrote...

GodWood wrote...
It annoys me most would prefer a fairy tale where the "good guys" win with no consequences.
I want companions I care for to die, people I love to betray me, choices I made to completely **** up and not simply because I picked all the stupidest possible options (ala suicide mission)

It annoys me most would prefer a nihilistic story where beloved characters die for no reason other than for the sake of shock value in the most contrived manner possible. I want moments where I felt like I achieved something when completing the game and not be branded a "loser" with bull**** consequences of "Path A and Path B will make you lose either way" just because I completed tasks in the game.

Most do not want this though.
Most want the fairy tale.

#78
Moiaussi

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GodWood wrote...

Most do not want this though.
Most want the fairy tale.


Regardless of the actual numbers, those who feel the need for gratuitous deaths seem to have an audience. Both Neverwinter series seemed arbitrarily dark. Balder's Gate too somewhat. From what I hear of Dragon Age you sort of have a choice between two flavours of dark ending.

ME1, even if you follow a paragon path and seem to have Council support at the end, that all seems to get tossed out the window in ME2. The Council forsakes you. You inexplicably agree unconditionally to work for a group you considered an enemy in ME1. Garrus reverts back to a darker path than he was on before you met him in ME1. Joker even defers to TIM's orders over yours.

Dark is ok on occasion when done well, but when done every time it is no different than always having everything work out. Besides, there was plenty of room for 'dark' just from the magnitude of the Reaper threat and the methods  they use without the rest of it thrown in.

#79
CroGamer002

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That's just stupid ZULU.

#80
Dean_the_Young

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. No "crew abduction". (It's a completely unnecessary and contrived plot device, that created a plot hole a few light years across. It pumped things up a little for the "ZOMG! collecterz gots da crew!" kids.) EDI could have been unshackled during the Collector Ship mission.

Given that all story advancement is based upon plot devices and all of it is contrived, calling a twist a contrived plot device is redundant. Nor is it a hole.

While 'they could have done it better' can certainly be thrown around forever, the dramatic effect was clear and well done: fixing a often cited complaint of 'no pressure' in ME1's end-game, the abduction put a dramatic pressure on the player, to balance preparing their team with rescuing the crew. Nothing made you leave then, and nothing prevented you from planning around it your first time, but for a first-time playthrough it was very well done device in general.

2. Extended briefing with TIM before passing through the O-4 Relay. TIM saying that Cerberus tried sending probes in to no avail. Now the Normandy is the best option, because of the stealth, armament and QEC, which would allow him to monitor the progress of the mission in real-time. TIM putting it clearly that Shepard's primary objective is gathering intel. A hint that the "cavalry" will be called for in case there's something too big for Shepard to crack on his own.

Why?

There's no need. All game it's been about defeating the Collectors. Maybe a 'take the opportunity to grab as much info as you can' would have been warranted, and included in the mission (a separate specialist role to get Collector data?),  but the primary objective has already been clear the whole game. The Base decision is an appropriate last-minute opportunity to spring on the player.

3. No Normandy crashlanding on the C-Base. Instead, TIM coming up and requesting Shepard to board it and gather intel. At this point Shepard can bring up the idea of destroying the Base by the Normandy's BFBs - like the one used to blow up Teltin. TIM wins the conversation by suggesting that the fate of the abducted colonists must be investigated.

No need for this at all, nor would it make more sense in general.

4. The Team goes in, the Crew remains to defend perimeter around the Normandy, with one squadmate leading them, and they can all die or all live by the "suicide mission" mechanics.

This doesn't make more sense either.

5. Better specialist roles. (As it's been actually implemented, the "tech expert" and "2nd fire team leader" make no sense whatsovever.) Also 2-3 mandatory deaths of random squadmates in the "hold the line" section, to make the mission truly "suicide". This could also determine Shepard's death: if the "hold the line" team all dies, Shepard is unable to withdraw to the Normandy and orders Joker to abandon him.

Without agreeing to the first assertion in particular, this in general could have been expanded.

An often cited one that would have been great would have been a 'kill the General' role: send one man on a diversionary/suicide run to kill the General, which could prevent Harbinger's influence in the final battle. Only the strongest Hold-the-Liners/Thane could do so and get back alive, while the rest would die, giving use for Grunt/Zaeed/Thane/Garrus.

6. Better dialogue during the final choice. (Shepard's reasoning for both destroying and keeping the Base sounds ridiculous.)

Indeed.

#81
ScooterPie88

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GodWood wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

GodWood wrote...
It annoys me most would prefer a fairy tale where the "good guys" win with no consequences.
I want companions I care for to die, people I love to betray me, choices I made to completely **** up and not simply because I picked all the stupidest possible options (ala suicide mission)

It annoys me most would prefer a nihilistic story where beloved characters die for no reason other than for the sake of shock value in the most contrived manner possible. I want moments where I felt like I achieved something when completing the game and not be branded a "loser" with bull**** consequences of "Path A and Path B will make you lose either way" just because I completed tasks in the game.

Most do not want this though.
Most want the fairy tale.


In the real world people don't always make it out alive.  But I'm not playing the game to try to recreate the real world; I'm playing the game to escape reality.  Does that mean I don't want to see consequences?  Not at all I think you should be able to get people killed if you want to or if you're just stupid.  At the same time I think that you should be able to get everyone out alive.  If I wanted to be in a situatuion where people died because they just got unlucky I'd I join the military and go play in the sandbox.  (Not bashing the military it's just a fact that there are no guarentees for anyone in such a situation).  I prefer when I do things right to be rewarded.

#82
Oblarg

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Dean_the_Young wrote...


There's no need. All game it's been about defeating the Collectors. Maybe a 'take the opportunity to grab as much info as you can' would have been warranted, and included in the mission (a separate specialist role to get Collector data?),  but the primary objective has already been clear the whole game. The Base decision is an appropriate last-minute opportunity to spring on the player.


The reason for an extended breifing with TIM is to make the decision for Shepard to go through the relay alone less absurd.  As is, you currently retrieve the IFF, immediately strap it onto your ship, lose half your crew, and rush blindly through the relay.  That's a really, really dumb course of action.

#83
tonnactus

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LookingGlass93 wrote...

What would have made it better? If the Collectors had more than one ship.

Seriously, one ship? That's what was threatening the galaxy? One alien cruiser?


And dont forget the "epic" comment from one of your teammates,that it would go for the Earth next...

After getting damaged enough through simple and cheap cannons installed on one small colony....

#84
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It was implied however the Collectors did possess more than one ship.



Considering how several different times they mention how they can't believe it is the same ship that has been following Shepard around for two years. Maybe the ship present in the game is the one tasked with providing the humans for Harbinger's purposes, while the other ships are staying docked at the base and waiting until the time is right.



Considering lines of dialogue when you actually board the Collector ship, it seems apparent that only recently the Collectors had fully ascertained just how different their genetic makeup was in comparison to ours.



This was probably something Harbinger was making extra certain of considering the probable failure of the assembly of a Prothean Reaper.





So...in closing, I think they had more ships and could have taken more and more of our planets, but Harbinger just didn't have all the intel or resources he needed yet.

#85
AdamNW

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Oblarg wrote...

AdamNW wrote...

What makes you so sure that the IFF could have been duplicated?


The fact that it is duplicated if you get the Shepard dies/base not blown up ending?

Oh.  No wonder I didn't know that <_<

#86
cipher86

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This game does have problems, but I don't think the suicide mission is one of them. The real problems are:



Planet Scanning



A bunch of loyalty/side missions to cover for the fact that there are only a few missions that focus on the main story, and all the main missions are short.



The whole squad leaving for a "mission" so the crew could get abducted(every single mission I could do was completed the first time this happened). Seriously, they should have a DLC that fills this. It's really freaking annoying.



Paragon/Renegade responses were far too extreme this time around. Paragon is as high horsed as it gets, Renegade is as jerkoff as it gets.

#87
GodWood

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ScooterPie88 wrote...
In the real world people don't always make it out alive.  But I'm not playing the game to try to recreate the real world; I'm playing the game to escape reality.

I'm playing the game for drama, inescapable deaths, betrayals and twists add drama.

At the same time I think that you should be able to get everyone out alive.

I disagree, especially when the game is marketed as the 'dark second act' and the mission is labeled 'the suicide mission'

I prefer when I do things right to be rewarded.

I prefer sometimes being punished regardless of whether I did the right thing.

Modifié par GodWood, 03 novembre 2010 - 06:06 .


#88
Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams

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I agree wholly that there should have been mandatory deaths. No, Mass Effect is not real life, but its depiction of characters, relationships, politics etc. are supposed to be believable. It is completely unbelievable that we should be able to leave the self-proclaimed suicide mission unscathed. Things in life happen. People die. Friends die. It's completely unrealistic that the PC has the "power" to keep everyone who is holding the line alive when he is off fighting somewhere else. A squadmate can take a stray bullet to the forehead. No one has any power over that.

#89
Lunatic LK47

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[quote]GodWood wrote...
In the real world people don't always make it out alive.  But I'm not playing the game to try to recreate the real world; I'm playing the game to escape reality.[/quote]I'm playing the game for drama, inescapable deaths, betrayals and twists add drama.[/quote]

Except no matter how you slice it, the manner in which it plays out is usually contrived in the sense that characters die very idiotic deaths just for the sake of "making it work."

[quote]I prefer sometimes being punished regardless of whether I did the right thing.[/quote]

Not everyone shares the same sentiment. It's the equivalent of saying "Doesn't matter if you do well in school, you'll love getting straight F's."

#90
GodWood

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Lunatic LK47 wrote...

GodWood wrote...


In the real world people don't always make it out alive.  But I'm not playing the game to try to recreate the real world; I'm playing the game to escape reality.

I'm playing the game for drama, inescapable deaths, betrayals and twists add drama.

Except no matter how you slice it, the manner in which it plays out is usually contrived in the sense that characters die very idiotic deaths just for the sake of "making it work."

Only in the hands of a stupid writer.

I prefer sometimes being punished regardless of whether I did the right thing.

Not everyone shares the same sentiment. It's the equivalent of saying "Doesn't matter if you do well in school, you'll love getting straight F's."

That analogy doesn't apply at all.

Modifié par GodWood, 03 novembre 2010 - 08:00 .


#91
Lunatic LK47

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GodWood wrote...

Only in the hands of a stupid writer.


Like almost every mainstream title?

That analogy doesn't apply at all.


Uh, that's the impression I'm getting regarding the "punish players when completing quests." All it gives the player is the sense of "I just wasted my ****ing time and accomplished absolutely nothing." The same could be said of anyone attending a school with crappy teachers and administrators.

#92
GodWood

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Lunatic LK47 wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Only in the hands of a stupid writer.

Like almost every mainstream title?

Bioware have proven themselves talented writers in previous games, no reason they should stop now.

That analogy doesn't apply at all.

Uh, that's the impression I'm getting regarding the "punish players when completing quests." All it gives the player is the sense of "I just wasted my ****ing time and accomplished absolutely nothing." The same could be said of anyone attending a school with crappy teachers and administrators.

Well it seems you misread my post.
I said I wanted some decisions to fail regardless of how you play.
eg) ME1, no matter what one member of your squad dies.

#93
Lunatic LK47

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[quote]GodWood wrote...
Bioware have proven themselves talented writers in previous games, no reason they should stop now.[/quote]

I'm not denying BioWare's capability of writing a good story, but as much as I liked ME2's story, it could have been done better. ME1 and ME2 just did not connect that well at all, just for the sake of "Make ME2 a stand-alone game for the n00bs."
[quote][quote]That analogy doesn't apply at all.[/quote][quote]Well it seems you misread my post.
I said I wanted some decisions to fail regardless of how you play.
eg) ME1, no matter what one member of your squad dies.
[/quote]

That would only work once, but doing it in every single entry will make players roll their eyes with "Same ****, different day." 24 suffered this particular route with very reptetive formula of "Yeah, the day is saved, but Jack Bauer always loses something" or "The high authorities hate Jack Bauer just because he breaks the rules, and become ass-hats with not helping him despite him being right" in more or less every single Season of the series. If that's not enough, there's extensive playtesting that has to be worked out to make sure the game won't freak out just because "You killed Squadmate C and triggered the 'Galaxy Droid' glitch' in an already large game as it is.

#94
GodWood

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Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Well it seems you misread my post.
I said I wanted some decisions to fail regardless of how you play.
eg) ME1, no matter what one member of your squad dies.

That would only work once, but doing it in every single entry will make players roll their eyes with "Same ****, different day." 24 suffered this particular route with very reptetive formula of "Yeah, the day is saved, but Jack Bauer always loses something" or "The high authorities hate Jack Bauer just because he breaks the rules, and become ass-hats with not helping him despite him being right" in more or less every single Season of the series. If that's not enough, there's extensive playtesting that has to be worked out to make sure the game won't freak out just because "You killed Squadmate C and triggered the 'Galaxy Droid' glitch' in an already large game as it is.

Well thats an example of a poor execution.
A good execution would be the ASoIaF series, the way Martin (the author) kills off characters always keeps the reader on their toes.

Modifié par GodWood, 03 novembre 2010 - 08:40 .


#95
JohnnyBeGood2

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Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Well I was thinking about elaborating but figured it would be a waste of time to try and change the OP's mind in regards to what I thought was an idoitic idea. So I just stated my displeasure. Is that well thought out enough for you?


Sure, but it's not going to make anyone take your post more seriously.



I'm sure to lose sleep over it I might just take it a step further and end my life now as it surely won't be worth living after this debacle.


Perhaps not, but it does make one wonder why you'd even bother posting if you honestly don't expect anyone to take you seriously.


Il chime in and say that the posters original: "uh... NO" was perfectly expresive.

#96
Chaota Vos

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GodWood wrote...
It annoys me most would prefer a fairy tale where the "good guys" win with no consequences.
I want companions I care for to die, people I love to betray me, choices I made to completely **** up and not simply because I picked all the stupidest possible options (ala suicide mission)


You have the choice not to complete loyalty missions  (or royally screw them up) which ensure companion survival, and to choose less-than-ideal companions to perform the SM tasks.  Not only that, but four companions give you the option of then breaking their loyalty (and sealing their doom) by siding with their rival during their respective confrontations.  Just don't use the morality conversation option.   Alternately you can decide not to upgrade the Normandy.

If you want companions to die in the SM to make is feel more realistic, the freedom is there.  If you want the "happy ending", that option exists too. This way the completionist players are rewarded for the effort they put into the survival of the SM squad, and the realists are satisfied by having the option of companions being KIA.  Everyone wins.

I really don't understand why this system doesn't satisfy you. 

#97
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Lunatic LK47 wrote...



Except no matter how you slice it, the manner in which it plays out is usually contrived in the sense that characters die very idiotic deaths just for the sake of "making it work."


...but they don't have to. Death can serve to motivate the player, the main character, and to enhance the drama and meaning of the story. In addition, death can serve to complete a character's arc. For Garrus this works well because him dying to save the rest of the team mirrors his experience on Omega. There the rest of his team died but he lived, and now on the Collector base he finds purpose in giving his life to save everyone else.

The fact that so many people are so attached to all these characters that they refuse to see any of them die is all the more reason why some of them should.


Chaota Vos wrote...

I really don't understand why this system doesn't satisfy you. 


I'm certain you don't understand a lot of things.

Modifié par Shandepared, 03 novembre 2010 - 10:42 .


#98
GodWood

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Chaota Vos wrote...
snip 

What you suggest requires me to metagame and pick stupid decisions my Shepard wouldn't do.
Thus breaking character.

#99
Chaota Vos

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Shandepared wrote...

...but they don't have to. Death can serve to motivate the player, the main character, and to enhance the drama and meaning of the story. In addition, death can serve to complete a character's arc. For Garrus this works well because him dying to save the rest of the team mirrors his experience on Omega. There the rest of his team died but he lived, and now on the Collector base he finds purpose in giving his life to save everyone else.

The fact that so many people are so attached to all these characters that they refuse to see any of them die is all the more reason why some of them should.


Chaota Vos wrote...

I really don't understand why this system doesn't satisfy you. 


I'm certain you don't understand a lot of things.


Nice evasion of my point you've got there.

Death of a party member is a heavy plot construct.  If  you want a character's death to work, they need to die in a way the audience sees as meaningful, organic and mandatory.  Not to satisfy some sort of "realism" quota.  That is why (IMO) the Virmire casualty failed in it's intended impact.  The first thing I thought was "wait, you guys don't have remotes or something?". It had a plothole the size of the Citadel and the "sacrifice" came across as overly forced; something hamfisted into the game to legitimise the "no easy choices" marketing stratagy.  A similar situation occurs during the Suicide Mission where Jacob puts his hand up for a task he's blatently not suitable for (except you actually get to decide who to send).

I simply can't see how mandatory character deaths during the Suicide Mission serve any purpose other than to pander to the "it's a Suicide Mission" marketing stratagy.  Unless (as you say)  you're roleplaying, and said character death is the resolution of that character's arc.  If that's the case,  I believe the status quo of choosing your squadmate's fates suits such desires perfectly.

Thus why I believe giving the player the freedom to choose is the right move on behalf of the Mass Efffect writers.  Sure, a character's death is a convenient way to give the player a sense of shock or resolve, but there are always other options for getting the same result .  Your crew getting kidnapped, for example.  I'm not saying that the Collector abduction itself was a well-pulled off piece of storytelling (because I do think it should have been done far better), I'm simply pointing out that there are many different methods for getting the player's attention that aren't so absolute as having a character players know and love removed from the story forever.

GodWood wrote...
What you suggest requires me to metagame and pick stupid decisions my Shepard wouldn't do.
Thus breaking character.


Or enter the Omega Relay without doing loyalty missions.  Possibly pick characters that "seem" suited for a specific task when they are in fact not (eg "Hey, Miranda, remember when you told me your biotics are awesome?  I've got some Seekers that need repulsing...").

Hell, Jacob literally offers to throw his life away.

Modifié par Chaota Vos, 03 novembre 2010 - 12:43 .


#100
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Chaota Vos wrote...

Nice evasion of my point you've got there.


Your point is a moot one because you don't understand your oppositions' feelings on the subject.