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SUICIDE MISSION. The way it'd make sense.


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#176
Killjoy Cutter

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

The problem is that if they went up against any 'real' defense, it would have been a suicide mission (edit: to clairify, they all would have died and the mission failed). Somehow they even know enough about Collector technology to be able to hack it, and like everything else, it is hackable.


So why are you agaisnt the "suicide mission" getting a little more "real"?


I'm against rigging the game to make it meet the expectations of people who took a stupid advertising tagline to heart.

#177
Zulu_DFA

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I think all people who take "No one left behind" medal as the main premise of ME2 should enjoy World of Goo very very much.

#178
Killjoy Cutter

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

I think all people who take "No one left behind" medal as the main premise of ME2 should enjoy World of Goo very very much.



Hmmm...  World of Goo.  Never heard of it.  Let's see...  check Wikipedia... no, not really my sort of game at all. 


Much prefer ME1 and ME2, DA:O... WoW was fun when my local, real-life friends played it, then it got old... been playing a lot of Football Manager 2010 (soccer team management game) lately... 



As for the medals, achievements, whatever... don't really care that much, honestly.  They're console garbage that the PC version could do without, maybe spend the bits on cleaning up some of the graphics errors, or import quirks, or whatever. 

The "main premise" of ME2... that's sorta vague, isn't it?  I thought the main point was to stop the Collectors without dying, and since you're the leader of the team, without getting them killed.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 23 novembre 2010 - 03:03 .


#179
Zulu_DFA

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Hmmm... World of Goo. Never heard of it. Let's see... check Wikipedia... no, not really my sort of game at all.


Why not? The Goo Balls are cute, and the task is to get as many of them as you can to the intake pipe... And it even has a plot too, believe it or not!

#180
Killjoy Cutter

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Not a big fan of puzzle games, and it looks like a puzzle game of sorts.


#181
Zulu_DFA

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Not a big fan of puzzle games, and it looks like a puzzle game of sorts.




Speaking of the puzzles... Wouldn't it have been awesome if the "suicide mission" included some sort of a unique puzzle minigame, like that on Noveria? You don't solve the puzzle, a squamate dies, LOL!

#182
Maestro975

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Oblarg wrote...

Cheese Elemental wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

Cheese Elemental wrote...

It's a suicide mission because all the odds are stacked against you. You're outnumbered, outgunned, and don't have any backup. It's just you and your squad.
Making it a super-organised operation would have removed all sense of desperation. It would have been like filing paperwork or something like that.


The odds wouldn't be stacked against you if the course of action you took weren't so goddamn stupid.

Stupid? How so?

1. Shepard is pressed for time, so it's no wonder he/she is rushing things.
2. You hardly know anything about the Collector base. EDI could only gather so much information from the Collector ship.


Well, ignoring the fact that there's absolutely no urgency if you pay attention to the plot and realize that the Collectors could never succeed in the first place, there's still nothing that can justify strapping the IFF directly onto the Normandy and blindly flying through the relay solo.  That's just about the dumbest thing you could possibly do.  Why not duplicate the IFF and send probes through the relay to gather recon?  Why not send a fleet through the relay?  Anything but sending your best guy through the relay alone, with no intel, in a ship designed for stealth, not combat, with the intention of stopping the collectors is completely moronic.


Probes would be destroyed by the Oculi. Alliance doesn't care about human colonists in the Terminus Systems, they're basically like "You chose to live outside our jurisdiction, you're screwed." The Council feels the same way if you let them live. These colonists chose to swim with sharks (Blue Suns, Blood Pack, Collectors, pirates, and geth) and they're getting bit.

What about in Retribution, when Anderson and Sanders assembled that turian strike team? Cerberus was an enemy they recognized (like Saren/geth). Plus, TIM would never allow it. The turians would not keep the base.


Abduction of the crew. So many people hate this because they don't like the prospect of being punished for ignoring the plot and traipsing off to backwater worlds doing their own thing. Well you should be. Exploring worlds for hidden treasure troves after escaping the Citadel Lockdown is stupid, stopping Saren should be your raison detre at that point, and players should have been punished for forgetting about that. But for those that would ask, how can the Normandy run without a crew? Check out Star Trek: The Search for Spock. Having stolen the Enterprise after an event similar to Citadel Lockdown, Kirk didn't have the normal large crew compliment the Enterprise usually depends on. But Scotty compensated by setting up an automated system. The hitch was that it wasn't designed for combat; they weren't expecting any because the Alpha Quadrant governments had tentatively agreed to only send in science vessels, so they did end up getting schooled by a Klingon ship they could've taken under normal circumstances. But it stands to reason that EDI could run the ship similar to Scotty's automation system, and not miss a beat. I suppose it also raises the question of why the Collectors didn't try boarding and abduction the crew of the first Normandy instead of destroying it, but maybe they didn't have as much intel then. Plus the fact that Shepard, Ashley, and Liara were on board, and they would have put up more of a fight than Joker did. But any complaint that amounts to "stupid plot urgency, you're spoiling my immersion" is just as idiotic as people who are ****ing about Kirk's father being dead in the new Star Trek continuity.

The only hole I see is the Reaper larva. Why bother with shooting the injection tubes? They were going to blow up the base, the explosion (or neutron purge if TIM gets his way) would "take it out." If Shep's squad had left it alone, the tubes would still be confining it to one place, like a chained dog. Instead, destroying the feeding tubes woke it up, and gave it the freedom to circle around you spitting its dragon breath at you. It would've made better sense if it was either just kept in the background while you fought a different boss, or Harbinger enacting some security protocol that would wake it up and free it to fight you. (They could've also gone with a better design, something that truly did look like a hybrid as opposed to a giant T-800, but that's another story).

#183
Killjoy Cutter

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Not a big fan of puzzle games, and it looks like a puzzle game of sorts.


Speaking of the puzzles... Wouldn't it have been awesome if the "suicide mission" included some sort of a unique puzzle minigame, like that on Noveria? You don't solve the puzzle, a squamate dies, LOL!



No.

#184
Zulu_DFA

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...



No.


Whatever you say.

#185
Destroy Raiden_

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“one thing I'd change is making it so that the HtL deaths weren't random eg you send 3 squadmates to remain close to the doors and act as a distraction so that the others have a clear shot at them. Something that heavily implies that they'll die. “



^ I like this idea, for instance Jacob volunteering was a suggestion that implied his death Miranda just pointing that obvious item out ruined it for me if she kept her mouth shut it would've been better. Say the player sends Jacob in and misses the red flags on his part then he dies, the player can be shocked by this but when Miranda points out the obvious then player sends Jacob anyway there is no surprise he dies.



I think the collectors should've been more proactive in coming after people so I saw in the comic they paid a visit to Omega but Aria says nothing to you on this. They should've used that scene in 2 and repeated such things on other worlds having multiple collector attacks would've been better and added to the urgency feeling. I mean I felt more uneasy on Samara's or Kasumi's loyalty missions then on the collector base.



As far as the IFF I was happy to wait on the ship for it to get done. Leaving your ship in the middle of nowhere is like saying, “ I’ll be right back,” in a horror flick, and you know something’s up. When the ship showed up I was not surprised.



Then w/ in the O4 we get one big ship then the main ship if I had a station floating in a sea of black holes I’d stock my area full with as many different vessels and guns as possible the big laser beam ships can hang around the perimeter, smaller ships can patrol the middle ground, and then I’ve got loads of missiles and anti ship guns mounted on my large base and if they breach that they’ve got hordes of not only men but AI to deal with I mean the fortifications on the collector base where horrible they felt too safe with their big huge doors! My 10 yr old nephew could do far better in the defense department then they did! You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to see bases need defenses both interior and exterior and if you’re terrorizing a galaxy you need tons of defenses!





I agree with -Skorpious- (ME2)





1) It derailed ME's incredible ending



2) It removed the main "enemy" from the plot



3) The Collector's were pitiful enemies that put up little resistance



4) It forced us to sit through hours of solving our teammates problems. While not necessarily a bad idea, Bioware ruined a great opportunity by not connecting each recruitment/loyalty to the main plot



5) It was way too short



6) Too easy. The choices were obvious, and it is actually harder to get your team killed as opposed to saving them all





ME1 had a great story, 2 fell in the ditch, and 3 has to climb out of it.



As far as the comment on the reason why shep went alone was that noone else in the galaxy wanted to go collector chasing. Cerberus could’ve send ships with shep as backup they where clearly interested and if Cerberus can have both ground and space stations they’ve got ships to use so they could’ve sent them with him. Also this is further proven if you save the base a boat load of ships show up as TIM watches so they had the ships available all along they just didn’t see any reason to send them with Shep.



For squad tactics Samara should’ve been able to be a team leader I mean you can pick her but on the second door she dies I think her being a Justicar and surviving all the battles she’d gone through would make her able to cautiously lead at the very least. She has combat skills and about as much people skills as Miranda so her not being able to be a viable team distraction leader didn’t make any sense.

#186
HappyHappyJoyJoy

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Zulu_DFA wrote...
5. Better specialist roles. (As it's been actually implemented, the "tech expert" and "2nd fire team leader" make no sense whatsovever.) Also 2-3 mandatory deaths of random squadmates in the "hold the line" section, to make the mission truly "suicide". This could also determine Shepard's death: if the "hold the line" team all dies, Shepard is unable to withdraw to the Normandy and orders Joker to abandon him.


You have to be joking.  Random deaths?

"Hey, why did Garrus and Grunt die on the line?"
"It's random.  The random number generator is based on your machine's system clock."
"Uh, ok.  So, how do I get Garrus and Grunt to live?"
"Try again!  Or, there's a thread that shows what system clock times will generate which deaths, you can use that as reference."
"Gee, thanks."

#187
Lunatic LK47

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Not a big fan of puzzle games, and it looks like a puzzle game of sorts.


Speaking of the puzzles... Wouldn't it have been awesome if the "suicide mission" included some sort of a unique puzzle minigame, like that on Noveria? You don't solve the puzzle, a squamate dies, LOL!



No.


This. Tower of Hanoi already got boring on Mass Effect 1. I already had to deal with it countless more times in KOTOR 1. If some jack-ass asks about a Rubik's cube, I'm going to shove a pole up someone's ass and puke on his/her corpse.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 24 novembre 2010 - 04:52 .


#188
Lunatic LK47

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Destroy Raiden wrote...

For squad tactics Samara should’ve been able to be a team leader I mean you can pick her but on the second door she dies I think her being a Justicar and surviving all the battles she’d gone through would make her able to cautiously lead at the very least. She has combat skills and about as much people skills as Miranda so her not being able to be a viable team distraction leader didn’t make any sense.


Uh, Samara said in her words "I always worked alone." It's as stupid as expecting the U.S. military to follow orders from Batman.

#189
Slayer299

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@ Destroy_Raiden - I completely agree with with you except for Samara, since my impression of her was that she worked mostly alone for her career as a Justicar, so having her as a team leader would make less sense than Zaeed (who manages to be the *only* survivor a bit often there).

@HappyHappyJoyJoy - Random deaths would be good. I mean what do you think a Suicide Mission is? A Suicide Mission is a mission you *know* that you aren't going to come back from, it's a one-way, get the job done at all costs, affair. And the SM in ME2 was anything but and in fact designed so that you have a high chance of coming out with everyone alive instead.

examples of what a SM mission is;
    * The Devil's Brigade (1968)
    * Kelly's Heroes (1970)
    * The Inglorious Bastards (1978)
    * Inglourious Basterds (2009)
    * Seven Samurai (1954)
    * The Magnificent Seven (1960) 

#190
Lunatic LK47

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Slayer299 wrote...
@HappyHappyJoyJoy - Random deaths would be good. I mean what do you think a Suicide Mission is? A Suicide Mission is a mission you *know* that you aren't going to come back from, it's a one-way, get the job done at all costs, affair. And the SM in ME2 was anything but and in fact designed so that you have a high chance of coming out with everyone alive instead.


Uh, look at the back of the box. It specifically said "Prove them wrong."

#191
HappyHappyJoyJoy

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Slayer299 wrote...
@HappyHappyJoyJoy - Random deaths would be good. I mean what do you think a Suicide Mission is? A Suicide Mission is a mission you *know* that you aren't going to come back from, it's a one-way, get the job done at all costs, affair. And the SM in ME2 was anything but and in fact designed so that you have a high chance of coming out with everyone alive instead.

examples of what a SM mission is;
... (movies removed)


If a "suicide mission" means everyone dies, then why make it random?  Have everyone die. 

Random means the computer figuratively throws a die to figure out who lives and who dies.  I'm not sure what is interesting about that, and why it would make a better game. 

As for the movies you listed, the "suicide mission" was for dramatic purposes, but the screenwriters knew who was going to make it.  ME2 lets you get everyone past the suicide mission without a death but you have to earn your happy ending

I suspect the only reason it is reportedly so common is that (a) every forum/walkthrough/search result says exactly what you need to do, and (B) players like doing extra missions anyway to get extra experience points and thus extra levels.

#192
AdmiralCheez

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Earn your happy ending, eh? I like it.



And yeah, thinking about random deaths again, it would be way too ragequit-inducing. Maybe in ME3, since it's the end of the series and stuff...

#193
Slayer299

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Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...
@HappyHappyJoyJoy - Random deaths would be good. I mean what do you think a Suicide Mission is? A Suicide Mission is a mission you *know* that you aren't going to come back from, it's a one-way, get the job done at all costs, affair. And the SM in ME2 was anything but and in fact designed so that you have a high chance of coming out with everyone alive instead.


Uh, look at the back of the box. It specifically said "Prove them wrong."


Yeah, so? If the mission is designed to make it for the player to easily get through what am I proving?

#194
Slayer299

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HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...
@HappyHappyJoyJoy - Random deaths would be good. I mean what do you think a Suicide Mission is? A Suicide Mission is a mission you *know* that you aren't going to come back from, it's a one-way, get the job done at all costs, affair. And the SM in ME2 was anything but and in fact designed so that you have a high chance of coming out with everyone alive instead.

examples of what a SM mission is;
... (movies removed)


If a "suicide mission" means everyone dies, then why make it random?  Have everyone die. 

Random means the computer figuratively throws a die to figure out who lives and who dies.  I'm not sure what is interesting about that, and why it would make a better game. 

As for the movies you listed, the "suicide mission" was for dramatic purposes, but the screenwriters knew who was going to make it.  ME2 lets you get everyone past the suicide mission without a death but you have to earn your happy ending

I suspect the only reason it is reportedly so common is that (a) every forum/walkthrough/search result says exactly what you need to do, and (B) players like doing extra missions anyway to get extra experience points and thus extra levels.


Than Bioware and Casey's constant use of the term "Suicide Mission" and "Dirty Dozen" were wrong and should never have been used. My point was that the expression of "earn your happy ending" and the way it was billed by Casey and the markeing team was misleading, not that I wanted the SM to have been frustrating and pointless. Also, a lot of other players got through the SM without walkthroughs as well, myself included (my 1st playthrough was ended at lvl 26 and with no DLC's) because it was so easy.

#195
HappyHappyJoyJoy

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Slayer299 wrote...
Than Bioware and Casey's constant use of the term "Suicide Mission" and "Dirty Dozen" were wrong and should never have been used. My point was that the expression of "earn your happy ending" and the way it was billed by Casey and the markeing team was misleading, not that I wanted the SM to have been frustrating and pointless. Also, a lot of other players got through the SM without walkthroughs as well, myself included (my 1st playthrough was ended at lvl 26 and with no DLC's) because it was so easy.


Why not use "Dirty Dozen"?  There are a dozen squad mates (including DLC), of varying backgrounds, criminal history, propensity for violence, etc.  And it's not hard to lose people even if you did all the loyalty missions - Jacob and Miranda both volunteer for jobs they are unsuited for, there are people who thought Zaeed etc. would be good "fire mission" leaders, explaining why Mordin keeps dying on "the line" even though he openly mocks "holding the line" if you talk to him, not having enough in paragon/renegade to resolve the fights between the crew, etc. 

It sounds like you really wanted someone to die and are upset that you actually did the loyalty missions, got the upgrades, and chose well when picking positions during the SM.  Congrats, you did the work required to get everyone through. 

I don't see why you are upset about being rewarded

It's only a suicide mission if you don't do your homework. 

#196
Lunatic LK47

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HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...
Why not use "Dirty Dozen"?  There are a dozen squad mates (including DLC), of varying backgrounds, criminal history, propensity for violence, etc.  And it's not hard to lose people even if you did all the loyalty missions - Jacob and Miranda both volunteer for jobs they are unsuited for, there are people who thought Zaeed etc. would be good "fire mission" leaders, explaining why Mordin keeps dying on "the line" even though he openly mocks "holding the line" if you talk to him, not having enough in paragon/renegade to resolve the fights between the crew, etc. 

It sounds like you really wanted someone to die and are upset that you actually did the loyalty missions, got the upgrades, and chose well when picking positions during the SM.  Congrats, you did the work required to get everyone through. 

I don't see why you are upset about being rewarded

It's only a suicide mission if you don't do your homework. 


If I know you in real life, you'll get two beers from me.

#197
Zulu_DFA

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HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

You have to be joking.  Random deaths?

"Hey, why did Garrus and Grunt die on the line?"
"It's random.  The random number generator is based on your machine's system clock."
"Uh, ok.  So, how do I get Garrus and Grunt to live?"
"Try again!  Or, there's a thread that shows what system clock times will generate which deaths, you can use that as reference."
"Gee, thanks."

Yeah, that'd be a lot of fun. Seriously.

#198
Moiaussi

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Maestro975 wrote...

Probes would be destroyed by the Oculi.


The Occuli seem to have short range weaponry. That means the probes get to see them (and likely more) before being destroyed. That is more information than nothing, don't you think?

Alliance doesn't care about human colonists in the Terminus Systems, they're basically like "You chose to live outside our jurisdiction, you're screwed." The Council feels the same way if you let them live. These colonists chose to swim with sharks (Blue Suns, Blood Pack, Collectors, pirates, and geth) and they're getting bit. .


That isn't entirely true. The Alliance is investigating as revealed by the VS's mission there. The Alliance is investigating quietly, and arming the colonies. The gun may not have been quite set up yet, but once it was, it was enough to drive the collectors off (which alone should be a strong indication they couldn't possible succeed... if a single ground based cannon drove them off, how would they deal with any real, decently defended colony?

Take on earth? Ya right...

#199
HappyHappyJoyJoy

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

You have to be joking.  Random deaths?

"Hey, why did Garrus and Grunt die on the line?"
"It's random.  The random number generator is based on your machine's system clock."
"Uh, ok.  So, how do I get Garrus and Grunt to live?"
"Try again!  Or, there's a thread that shows what system clock times will generate which deaths, you can use that as reference."
"Gee, thanks."

Yeah, that'd be a lot of fun. Seriously.


The classic strategy game "Civilization" had a non-zero probability that a spearman could defeat a tank, too.  Random doesn't always work out well.  (Civ fixed that "feature" a long time ago.)

As far as mandatory deaths - no offense, but this is how we get the ads for tonight's episode of <insert TV show here> where "someone tonight will die!!!!11"  I'd rather have good drama and writing, and you don't need to have a cheap dramatic trick like a death scene for that.

#200
Count Viceroy

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Slayer299 wrote...
Than Bioware and Casey's constant use of the term "Suicide Mission" and "Dirty Dozen" were wrong and should never have been used


The same Casey who claimed that the new mining system was fun and addicting. Yeah. ;)

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 24 novembre 2010 - 08:03 .