156 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, it took quite a while. It was a dynamic and expanding force for many years after Genghis Khan's death, only really losing its momentum when Ogedai Khan died on campaign and the entire army had to go home to choose a new khan. And Kublai Khan's Yuan Dynasty in China was a solid dynasty for a fair amount of time as well.

The empire started fragmenting about 30 years after Khan's death. And as KoP pointed out, the majority of the Mongol empire was converting to Islam and adopting Arabic/Middle Eastern cultural practices. So no, in the end, the influence of the Mongols held little legacy, except that 1 of 10 men in China are descended from Ghengis Khan.

Not totally accurate. There were plenty of Axis collaborators at first, but the Wehrmacht conducted itself so horribly in Operation Barbarossa (Slavs weren't thought of as being really human) that even the people who hated Stalin (of whom there were many) threw themselves wholeheartedly into the fight for revenge. And the Union wasn't a backwater dump; Stalin's rapid industrialization gave it the base for a very sizable army and was really one of the major things that saved it.

And again, it came down to brutality. Had the Germans not turned on their new found supporters, history would have probably been very different. The Germans stopped 10 miles outside of Moscow, for some unknown reason. Had they not, there would have been no Stalin or stable government to continue to oppose the invaders. Had the Germans not started enslaving and killing the local populations, things would have become very different.

My point is, brutal and bloodthirsty regimes do not prosper and evolve, but decline and devour themselves from within, eventually becoming subjugated by foreign powers. Because a state of fear and oppression does not encourage wealth and advancement, but locks society into a single, stagnant state that eventually declines.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

 And as KoP pointed out, the majority of the Mongol empire was converting to Islam and adopting Arabic/Middle Eastern cultural practices.

To be fair, it was also (if not maintly) Persian Islamic culture, which was under the umbrella of the general Islamic culture or Islamicate as Marshall Hodgson likes to call it.

[Giggles_Manically]

I agree with Skadi.



Look at the Mughal Empire in India.



Akbar ruling firmly, but fairly with tolerance, and wisdom made an extremely powerful nation, that was healthy and well run. He is the model of what an Emporer needed to be in India.

His descendant Aurangzeb however with his harsh rule, and intolerance eventually led to the Mughal empire to become fractured and hated after his death.



While this is not a universal rule it does show that people dont like harsh rulers, and a nation or a leader who rules as a dictator can destroy a powerful nation.



Or as the old saying goes in China:

Not only can water(people) float a boat(leader), it can sink it also.



"the knife cuts both ways" in english in other words.

[Costin_Razvan]

Briefly. Brief improvements are as signifigant as a fart in a thunderstorm. In the long term, things were not improved much, and Mongolis slid away, to be later dominated by superior powers.

Briefly? How about 400 years? That's brief?

Invention and wealth do not thrive under brutal, bloody regimes.

Oh, so slaughtering a political class of people who have been known throughout Fereldan history to wage Civil Wars for almost next to Zero, so that you might ensure stability for Fereldan makes your country a bloody regime? I love your way of thinking ( completely ignoring btw that Stalin made Russia a super power through his ruthless thinking, and that he crushed Germany through it. Russia did not survive through a miracle: It was Stalin's genius that saved it. But that's just me bashing one of your points )

The Bannorn needs to go to so that Fereldan can prosper. How does me killing the Bannorn in any way relate to ruling the rest of the country with an iron fist? Yes I would keep a very close on Merchant Guilds so that my country wouldn't become Antiva, but I would allow them to grow.

Fereldan's future rest in an Alliance with Orzammar and then Nevarra, the removal of the noble class ( which I don't count the freeholders as ), a centralized government ( which it doesn't have ), and the expansion at sea.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 novembre 2010 - 06:54 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Thats where I agree with Costin.

A nation needs a central authority, without one it cant move forward and will always be the weaker for it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Thats where I agree with Costin.
A nation needs a central authority, without one it cant move forward and will always be the weaker for it.

I think we mostly agree on the end goal, but not the methods.

I am in the camp that prefers slow and steady reform and covert, less abrupt means.

I do not believe it is necessary to eradicate the nobility to have this central authority. But they will have to be marginalized in some ways for sure, however they can still be included in the new system.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 07:01 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Well like you say KoP until there is a middle class the nobles will always rule.

Money and all that.

[Xilizhra]

I'm quite curious as to where mages, elves and the Chantry would fit into this.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Well like you say KoP until there is a middle class the nobles will always rule.
Money and all that.

Yep. I am a middle class fanatic, I believe they are the engines of civilisations.

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm quite curious as to where mages, elves and the Chantry would fit into this.

I have plans for them, none of which fit with your revolutionary ideas I am afraid.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 07:09 .

[Xilizhra]

Do elaborate on your own "plans?" I'm rather curious.

[Giggles_Manically]

People wont care about mages, or religion that much once they have money and an education.



Europe was once plagued with witch hunts, and superstition.

After the middle class, education and industrialization rolled around they dissapeared very rapidly.



Elves are another matter because that is racism, and that never goes out of style it seems.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Do elaborate on your own "plans?" I'm rather curious.

Well ok, but briefly since it's off-topic.

- Mages:
Not a primary concern for me at the moment. Would be preferable if they had more autonomy, so they can be enlisted in the army. But like I said, not a primary concern. Possible light reforms as time passes.

- The Chantry:
Unless something extra-ordinary happens, it's a useful institution and I'd rather keep it. The Sacred Ashes becoming a pilgrimage site means money, commerce and political influence.  Pilgrims can come to Denerim, Amaranthine or Highever by sea, and travel all the way to Haven (whose current population will be deported and the village will be resettled) and the temple. That's a lot of economic activity.

- Elves:
a- Alienage elves: Like I said before hand, to alleviate the alienage over-population in Denerim I'd encourage a part to migrate to Gwaren (or make them go there by force if need be). They will have jobs (wood cutting and ship building mostly), more space and more political say via the bureau I have in mind.
b- the dalish: they can have a small homeland south of Ferelden, where they will become our protectorate. They will recieve economic aid and protection, in exchange for their crafting skills and economic concessions. Since I believe Ferelden's future is at sea, having a navy made of ships built from Ironbark that only the Dalish can craft, would be quite impressive. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 07:20 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Costin_Razvan wrote...


Briefly? How about 400 years? That's brief?

400 hundred years? The Mongol Empire was finished in 150, and was crumbling long before then. Mongolia's influence and power in the world amounted to little.

Oh, so slaughtering a political class of people who have been known throughout Fereldan history to wage Civil Wars for almost next to Zero, so that you might ensure stability for Fereldan makes your country a bloody regime?

 

Yes. Key words: Slaughtering an entire political class. I would call that bloody and brutal, especially when more subtle and less bloody methods are not only available, but work much more effectively, and have greater long term benefits. Slaughtering a class or group of people never works well in the long run for any country, it is an extremely short sighted plan. And as KoP pointed out, by doing so you create a major power vacuum, as well as great civil unrest. And power hates vacuums. Such a sudden brutal act will lead to more problems, such as uniting the Bannorn and freeholders against you, bringing about a bigger civil war. For now, you can't even really call what the Banns do civil war, if they are fighting amongst one another in the Bannorn, pretty much leaving the rest of Ferelden to advance and prosper.

Making friends of enemies who are eager to serve you is far more productive in the long term. Bloodthirst costs.

I love your way of thinking ( completely ignoring btw that Stalin made Russia a super power through his ruthless thinking, and that he crushed Germany through it. Russia did not survive through a miracle: It was Stalin's genius that saved it. But that's just me bashing one of your points )

Bash all you like, I could care less. My take on the matter is not effected by it.

The Bannorn needs to go to so that Fereldan can prosper. How does me killing the Bannorn in any way relate to ruling the rest of the country with an iron fist? Yes I would keep a very close on Merchant Guilds so that my country wouldn't become Antiva, but I would allow them to grow.

Fereldan's future rest in an Alliance with Orzammar and then Nevarra, the removal of the noble class ( which I don't count the freeholders as ), a centralized government ( which it doesn't have ), and the expansion at sea.

because you are not bringing stability by slaughtering an entire class, you are fostering even more reason for civil war. Slow, subtle changes provide more fruit than quick and violent ones.

The Banns certainly need to be weakened, and power made to move more towards denerim and the Coastal lands. But this must be done slowly to avoid creating instability, and starving the Banns of their power base. Doing this by giving incentives and opportunities to freeholders to swear alliegance to the crown and the teyrnirs is a far better solution for everyone. No bloody civil wars started, and the commoners benefit from increased wealth and opportunity. The Banns are weakened, power is slowly transfering to a more centralized location, providing stability and power for the country in general. The nobility who resist this change will die away from their backwards thinking, those who see where the future lies will join on and become part of the new system.

And all this done with far less bloodshed and waste than out and out slaughtering people who are troublesome.

[Xilizhra]

b- the dalish: they can have a small homeland south of Ferelden, where they will become our protectorate. They will recieve economic aid and protection, in exchange for their crafting skills and economic concessions. Since I believe Ferelden's future is at sea, having a navy made of ships built from Ironbark that only the Dalish can craft, would be quite impressive.

I'm curious about what you'll do about cultural, and especially religious, issues that come about if you want to make the Dalish more economically integrated with Ferelden.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

b- the dalish: they can have a small homeland south of Ferelden, where they will become our protectorate. They will recieve economic aid and protection, in exchange for their crafting skills and economic concessions. Since I believe Ferelden's future is at sea, having a navy made of ships built from Ironbark that only the Dalish can craft, would be quite impressive.

I'm curious about what you'll do about cultural, and especially religious, issues that come about if you want to make the Dalish more economically integrated with Ferelden.

They will have local autonomy in such matters. I don't care what they worship and what side of the bed they sleep on. All I care about is $$$.

They will be economically integrated, broadly speaking, and their foreign policy will be dictated by Denerim. In local affairs, they can do whatever they want, as long as they keep it quiet. Them killing missionaries will not be tolerated. But, I would try to keep missionary activity to a minimum, as much as possible. 

EDIT: when it comes to magic, it's best if they keep it quiet. No idiocy about them spreading their arts to anyone and maybe Templar attention can be reduced. Also, there will be a quota on how much Dalish tribes can go in there. If they have too much population influx in a short amount of time, they might need to expand, which won't happen.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[nos_astra]

You are aware that south of Ferelden are the Wilds, populated by the Chasind folk who can pose a threat against Ferelden, should they unite once again? And even further south is uncharted territory, there lies only tundra and an ice wasteland, if the stories are true.

Modifié par klarabella, 01 novembre 2010 - 07:38 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...

You are aware that south of Ferelden are the Wilds, populated by the Chasind who can pose a threat against Ferelden, should they unite once again? And even further south is uncharted territory, there lies only tundra and an ice wasteland.

Which makes the Dalish the perfect buffer zone, I know.

And by south, I meant near Ostagar, as the epilogue says.

EDIT: yea sorry, Southern Ferelden. Not south of Ferelden.

And I gtg, cheers!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 07:40 .

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

klarabella wrote...
You are aware that south of Ferelden are the Wilds, populated by the Chasind who can pose a threat against Ferelden, should they unite once again? And even further south is uncharted territory, there lies only tundra and an ice wasteland.

Which makes the Dalish the perfect buffer zone, I know.

And by south, I meant at Ostagar, as the epilogue says.

Sneaky bastard.

Modifié par klarabella, 01 novembre 2010 - 07:40 .

[Xilizhra]

I can't say I approve of your decision to make the Dalish politically subordinate instead of giving them their own nation. At the minimum, I would allow the Hinterlands to exist as an independent ally and not a subordinate state, as well as allowing (perhaps encouraging) city elf/Dalish elf cultural mixing (at maximum, of course, there's seizing the Dales again).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Actually, I don't have to go. Yay!

klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Which makes the Dalish the perfect buffer zone, I know. [/b]

Sneaky bastard.

Aww thank you

Xilizhra wrote...

I can't say I approve of your decision
to make the Dalish politically subordinate instead of giving them their
own nation. At the minimum, I would allow the Hinterlands to exist as an
independent ally and not a subordinate state, as well as allowing
(perhaps encouraging) city elf/Dalish elf cultural mixing (at maximum,
of course, there's seizing the Dales again).

I didn't think you would. Like I said, it doesn't fit with your ideals.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 07:55 .

[nos_astra]

Xilizhra wrote...
(at maximum, of course, there's seizing the Dales again).

The Dales are part of Orlais. I don't see them seizing this land again any time soon.

Modifié par klarabella, 01 novembre 2010 - 08:01 .

[Xilizhra]

Would my plan given here be detrimental to your own? They'd still serve as a buffer and you could easily buy ironwood from them.

The Dales are part of Orlais. I don't see them seizing this land again any time soon.

No, it would take a lot of support and possibly another war between Orlais and Ferelden, preferably with Nevarra joining in at the same time. In my own RPed situation, Tevinter would get into it as well.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 novembre 2010 - 08:01 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Would my plan given here be detrimental to your own? They'd still serve as a buffer and you could easily buy ironwood from them.

Trying to take the dales? Absolutely not for me.
Dalish / City elf inter-mixing? No, I want a cheap labor force loyal to the Crown and Coastland Teyrns and not individual banns, which are the city elves. I wouldn't want that compromised.

And it's not the Ironbark I want (there are very high quality iron bark in the Brecillian forest, which I believe is in Gwaren's jurisdiction, I hope, which would be perfect for me). It's their knowledge and skills on how to craft the Ironbark that I want, which they will not part with easily unless they are pressured to.

Also, I'd like to have a protectorate that could assist the Crown in case of civil war. A common strategy is to make allies do most of the atrocities and then wash your hands of them.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 08:10 .

[Xilizhra]

Hm. A pity. But I'm sure there's some sort of compromise; what is it that you want, overall, for Ferelden? I think we could find another way to provide it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hm. A pity. But I'm sure there's some sort of compromise; what is it that you want, overall, for Ferelden? I think we could find another way to provide it.

Lol, it's like we are sitting in some dark room, deciding the fate of an imaginary country

What I want overall for Ferelden is for it to become a major power, specifically a naval power. With a central authority and bureaucracy, with checks and balances and the Rule of Law. If I want to be idealistic, I'd say I want it to be a realm of complete tolerance and meritocracy, but that won't happen anytime soon.

The elves would have their lot improved over time, but I wouldn't want to make anything drastic and the idea of reclaiming the Dales which will involve the forced removal of the humans who have lived there for centuries (if not worse), does not bode well for me. The Dales wasn't even for the Dalish in the first place, it was given to them by Andraste.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 08:21 .