156 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

Then expect all the people who make up a nation famed for its independence and its willful stand against aggressors and tyrants to go "ok" and be fine with it?

In the the Stolen Throne the vast majority of the country was perfectly happy to let Meghren rule until Maric scored several decisive victories against him, and they only rose up once Maric killed the three nobles who murdered his mother.

 You are assuming that they are perfectly logical and will not be affected emotionally.

Since you've used Stalin as an example, I think he said that his biggest mistake was assuming that those he delt with thought like he thought.  

I am assuming that out of those that I mentioned, yes, and to use your emotional argument: Some of them might just as easily want revenge against the Bannorn for the Civil War.

 It's not that simple. You can't create a bureaucracy from scratch in a few days. You're essentially creating a new class of Banns, only with the kingdom divided into several Ternirs. Why wouldn't that cause civil war?   

The Banns do two things: They provide protection which can be solved by creating a standing Fereldan Army, and they settle whatever land disputes the Freeholders have ( which can be settle at the Arl's/Teryn's court ).

Additionally those said Arls/Teryns might just divide their territory among their own minor banns who are sworn to their liege.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:32 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I am assuming that out of those that I mentioned, yes, and to use your emotional argument: Some of them might just as easily want revenge against the Bannorn for the Civil War.

Their agenda in the Landsmeet was to unite, not massacre each other. There is no evidence to suggest that they want revenge so much as to agree with this and not start fearing for their lives.

Or heck, become too ambitious and powerful with all the vacuum you are making them fill.
If I was Orlais, I'd gladly get in contact with several of them and encourage them to do things.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:32 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

In the the Stolen Throne the vast majority of the country was perfectly happy to let Meghren rule until Maric scored several decisive victories against him, and they only rose up once Maric killed the three nobles who murdered his mother.

No, they were not happy at all under the Orlesians. The reason they didn't rebel outright in the beginning is because they had no uniting factor to rally behind. Loghain's camp where he first meets Maric is proof, however, that there were numerous rebel groups fighting on small scale against the Orlesians. It was Maric who united them.

He killed those nobles out and out because he had the right to, as what they had done was high treason, killing the rightful queen to serve their overlords. Maric did not just out and out slaughter their entire families or go around slaughtering all the nobility. He was exercising his authority as king to dispense justice in terms of direct treason. They had fully committed the act.

However, it was Loghain and Rowans efforts to persuade the nobility to join the cause that rallied the most support for the rebellion. Maric going around out and out killing anyone who wouldn't join him would have probably killed the rebellion right there.

[Costin_Razvan]

At River Dane Skadi, Loghain's forces got bolstered considerably EXACTLY because Maric killed those few nobles.

 Their agenda in the Landsmeet was to unite, not massacre each other. There is no evidence to suggest that they want revenge so much as to agree with this and not start fearing for their lives.

Here's the argument: The Bannorn is planning to unite under Eamon's banner who I suspect and can accuse of working with Celene to take over Fereldan. All those mentioned nobles seemed to care about thing first and foremost: Fereldan.

My plan to deal with the Bannorn is exactly so that they don't unite under Eamon to start a Civil War, and in your long term plan you just assume you will be able to outsmart Celene.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:37 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
The Banns do two things: They provide protection which can be solved by creating a standing Fereldan Army, and they settle whatever land disputes the Freeholders have ( which can be settle at the Arl's/Teryn's court ).

Additionally those said Arls/Teryns might just divide their territory among their own minor banns who are sworn to their liege.

Since Ferelden does not have any central bureaucracy, then banns do provide some form of governance. Removing them would remove whatever governance, however small, those lands had.

Are they equipped to rule over that much land so quickly? I don't think so.
And even if they do, I think you're increasing the chances for civil war. There is a reason why Calenhad reduced the number of Ternirs to 2 and didn't increase them or let them rule huge proportions of the country.

The irony here is that you're essentially creating several Redcliffes.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:44 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Here's the argument: The Bannorn is planning to unite under Eamon's banner who I suspect and can accuse of working with Celene to take over Fereldan. All those mentioned nobles seemed to care about thing first and foremost: Fereldan.

Really? Why are you so sure of that? Why wouldn't they think that you transgressing the Landsmeet is an offense against Ferelden?

And why do you have this apocaliptic vision of things? All WH said is that this is a trend that should it continue, could essentially challenge Denerim's authority. But this will take time and inaction / overeaction on the part of Denerim.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
My plan to deal with the Bannorn is exactly so that they don't unite under Eamon to start a Civil War, and in your long term plan you just assume you will be able to outsmart Celene.

You assume that you can massacre an entire political class that existed for centuries, trust the surviving nobles not be be pissed off at you, give them huge chunks of lands that they are now supposed to govern, assuming that they won't declare independence. And you are assuming that you can beat Orlais in a war when the country is on the verge of collapse.

Yea, I think I think I am assuming less here. I don't think Celene is this larger than life mastermind that is so adamant about taking over Ferelden that is not worth the money and effort for a full scale invasion.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:50 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

At River Dane Skadi, Loghain's forces got bolstered considerably EXACTLY because Maric killed those few nobles.

Nobles who had committed regicide. The Banns didn't object to that. Why? In doing so, Maric had proved that he was indeed their rightful king, that he had enacted Ferelden, as opposed to Orlesian laws. Thus making himself to be their king, proving he had the strength and will to make certain this rebellion would succeed.

Again, he did not butcher their families, or butcher all the Banns because they weren't at first enthusiastic. By showing that he had the strength and will to punish collaboration with Orlais, he showed himself to be a strong leader whose rule would liberate the country.

Had he went and slaughtered them all, they would not have had many armies or support for the River Dane.

[Costin_Razvan]

You assume that you can massacre an entire political class that existed for centuries,

2 Centuries to be exact. It was Calenhad who organized Fereldan as it is currently ( with the Bannorn and all ), so bear in mind that the High Nobles come from families who once controlled the whole of Fereldan between them.

So yes, I assume they wouldn't be pissed off at me for giving them back the land their families had once had, nor do I assume they would declare independence.

  By showing that he had the strength and will to punish collaboration with Orlais

Which is pretty much what I am doing. Eamon is working with Celene in my idea ( something that I know Knight disagrees ) and the Bannorn is to unite under him

P.S. It's not just Witch Hunt, it's what people who saw Dragon Age 2 at Pax said about Fereldan ( that there was a Civil War there ). I believe Monica stated this.

As for Celene. She become Empress and is compared to Catherine the great. If you want to play at who can manipulate the Bannorn better, then I would place my money on her.

  And you are assuming that you can beat Orlais in a war when the country is on the verge of collapse.

After months/years of rebuiliding the country and more importantly the armed forces, then yes.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
2 Centuries to be exact. It was Calenhad who organized Fereldan as it is currently ( with the Bannorn and all ), so bear in mind that the High Nobles come from families who once controlled the whole of Fereldan between them.

Actually no, those titles existed long before Calenhad and the Landsmeet existed before unification.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
P.S. It's not just Witch Hunt, it's what people who saw Dragon Age 2 at Pax said about Fereldan ( that there was a Civil War there ). I believe Monica stated this.

Eh, what I remember is civil unrest, which is essentially the state Ferelden is always in.
We have little info to know how and why this happened, if it did happen. So I can't comment on that. What we have in WH does not hint at a necessary and immediate outbreak of a civil war, unless something extra-ordinary happened.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
As for Celene. She become Empress and is compared to Catherine the great. If you want to play at who can manipulate the Bannorn better, then I would place my money on her.

I would place my money on Orlais , if there is an attempted invasion by Ferelden, personally. 

Costin_Razvan wrote...

After months/years of rebuiliding the country and more importantly the armed forces, then yes.

You mean months of massacring nobles and then trying to fix the mess you left. Yea.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 10:01 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Which is pretty much what I am doing. Eamon is working with Celene in my idea ( something that I know Knight disagrees ) and the Bannorn is to unite under him

No, what you are doing is not showing strength, but random, pointless brutality. Eamon working with celene is a pretty hefty charge, one you better make certain you have hard evidence for before going sword happy. Simply killing people because you suspect them of something, without evidence, is the mark of a paranoid tyrant, and something that is not going to keep stability or foster prosperity in your lands.

And butchering every Bann...for what? Again, where is your evidence that they are all directly working with celene as well? The Bannorn are looking to Redcliffe for support and leadership, forging political alliances, but such things are not new or unusual in Ferelden, where alliances change all the time. Nor do you know all the Banns are doing so. To simply wipe them out because of what they might or might not do, including those who might not even be involved, with fracture any hope of keeping Ferelden united.

Maric killed the three nobles because there was no question they had deliberately committed regicide. He did not go and murder the rest of the nobles because they may or may not have supported such an act.

if one is to be a wise, strong, effective ruler who leaves a powerful and positive legacy on his people, then he must know there is a time to use the sword, and a time to stay your hand when less bloody, more effective measures are available. It is completely unecessary to drown Ferelden in blood when there are far cleaner, and better, methods of dealing with the Bannorn.

[Costin_Razvan]

Actually no, those titles existed long before Calenhad and the Landsmeet existed before unification.

Ah sorry, I was thinking about the titles of arl and king. Then again....the codex entry about Calenhand does say he fought against an arl.."sigh". ( as well for a lot of things the wiki says ).

Apparently Calenhad was a commoner from the Codex Entry, but the wiki paints him as the Teryn of Denerim in the page about Fereldan, huh?

Eh, what I remember is civil unrest, which is essentially the state Ferelden is always in.
We have little info to know how and why this happened, if it did happen. So I can't comment on that. What we have in WH does not hint at a necessary and immediate outbreak of a civil war, unless something extra-ordinary happened.

Would you be surprised at all if they actually had a civil war by the time of Dragon Age 2?

ou mean months of massacring nobles and then trying to fix the mess you left. Yea.

I would like to know how you plan to entice the freeholders to your side when the biggest reason they choose a Bann over the other is for the proximity of their military forces. Do you figure the Bannorn will just allow your forces to pass through their lands without them getting pissed off at you "stealing" their freeholders?

They have fought over this exact reason. ( Other Banns stealing their freeholders ).

 It is completely unecessary to drown Ferelden in blood when there are far cleaner, and better, methods of dealing with the Bannorn.

Methods that would probably take decades to bear fruit, and methods that I do not believe will actually work.

Secondly, I want to kill the Bannorn because I do not believe there is any hope of ever reasoning with these people and them having a place in Fereldan if it wants to become a strong country.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 novembre 2010 - 10:31 .

[Giggles_Manically]

So essentially what old Vlad did to the Boyars then Costin?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Would you be surprised at all if they actually had a civil war by the time of Dragon Age 2?

No, if they gave me a good explanation as to why.
But I will be pissed, because it means we essentially did nothing for DA:O and this might be an attempt by them to force down our throat the idea that Hawke is supposed to be the most important person evar.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I would like to know how you plan to entice the freeholders to your side when the biggest reason they choose a Bann over the other is for the proximity of their military forces. Do you figure the Bannorn will just allow your forces to pass through their lands without them getting pissed off at you "stealing" their freeholders?

I said entice and build more direct relations that would slowly marginalise the banns as buffer (via "trans-bann" organisations such as guilds and associations). I didn't say they would all join the Coastlands and especially not immediately. Only freeholders and Banns next to the Coastlands can swear fealty to the Teyrns and Arls there, if given enough incentives. But this should be subtle and slow, and not look like a hostile take over. 

Furthermore, with infighting and mediation from Denerim, the deployement of troops on a small scale can be justified.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 10:35 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

So essentially what old Vlad did to the Boyars then Costin?

Eh...Vlad did it for revenge and he killed them in a rather cruel way by forcing them to build a fortress for him....and then he staked those who survived.

Personally am going for what Mihai Viteazu did here.

Knight: See, that's the thing. I don't like long term plans like yours, especially since it seems like you are planning for it to be finished after your Warden dies, and then it might just utterly fail.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 novembre 2010 - 10:35 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

So essentially what old Vlad did to the Boyars then Costin?

Eh...Vlad did it for revenge and he killed them in a rather cruel way by forcing them to build a fortress for him....and then he staked those who survived.

Personally am going for what Mihai Viteazu did here.

Knight: See, that's the thing. I don't like long term plans like yours, especially since it seems like you are planning for it to be finished your Warden dies, and then it might just utterly fail.

He did consider the Boyars the number one thing that was holding up the country from the inside though.

[Costin_Razvan]

He did consider the Boyars the number one thing that was holding up the country from the inside though.

Who? Vlad who eradicated the old Boyars and replaced them or Viteazu ( who was more moderate though he also committed slaughter of nobles )?



While Tepes did not rule that long, it should be noted that he was betrayed by Hungary and that he died in battle against the Turks rather then failing as a ruler.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Knight: See, that's the thing. I don't like long term plans like yours, especially since it seems like you are planning for it to be finished after your Warden dies, and then it might just utterly fail.

Well for me, that's how the great civilisations are built. They aren't built in a day. They constantly evolve and they need a foundational basis. Alexander the Great is nothing without his father Philip. Stalin is nothing without the foundation that Peter the Great set in place and Catherine the Great expanded on. Bismarck is nothing without Frederick the Great. Abu Aamir Al Mansur is nothing without Abd Al Rahman III....etc  

That's all my Warden can hope to achieve. Create a foundational basis that can be expanded upon. If those after him screw up, oh well. He did the best he could and he can't be blamed.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 10:41 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I see Fereldan in a very dire crisis on the verge of it's collapse as a country unless direct action is taken, but that's me. A civil war following a Blight would mean it's end I think, and then there are the Qunari and Celene.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 novembre 2010 - 10:46 .

[The Almighty Ali]

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that someone with a Jim Raynor picture is saying that civil war while nasty enemies are on the verge of taking over is pointless and stupid?



=P

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I see Fereldan in a very dire crisis on the verge of it's collapse as a country unless direct action is taken, but that's me. A civil war following a Blight would mean it's end I think, and then there are the Qunari and Celene.

Or it might become a self-fullfilling prophecy.

[Costin_Razvan]

It's a gamble I admit, a rather big one from me. But then again you also are gambling you won't be killed by the assassins that will be sent after you, especially the Crows.

But I would rather try my hand while my Warden is still alive and in a position to potentially solve it if it all goes to hell. My plan ( stupid as it may sound to you ) is to create a stable country before my Warden dies, and also solve the situation with Orlais as well.

 Am I the only one who finds it ironic that someone with a Jim Raynor picture is saying that civil war while nasty enemies are on the verge of taking over is pointless and stupid?

I get your point. "Chuckle".

Ah Jim, why are you such a tool.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 novembre 2010 - 10:53 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Almighty Ali
Raynor is an idiot.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
But then again you also are gambling you won't be killed by the assassins that will be sent after you, especially the Crows.

Same applies to everyone. Orlais can very well hire Crows to kill you.

[Costin_Razvan]

Raynor is an idiot.

Almost a shame he voices Albatross as well.

I think we can both agree that both our plans carry degrees of risks with them, and that how big or small those risks are depend on our views.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 novembre 2010 - 10:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Raynor is an idiot.

Almost a shame he voices Albatross as well.

He did? Lol
Yea what a shame.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I think we can both agree that both our plans carry degree of risks with them, and that how big or small those risks are depend on our views.

Every action has risk, of course. We agree on the goals, mostly, just not the methods.

And I'm going to try something fun now. Use Arcturus Mengsk's speech from Starcraft in the context of Ferelden.
PS: my Arcturus Cousland is different in many ways than Arcturus Mengsk in Starcraft and this is done as a joke


"Fellow Fereldans, I come to you in the wake of recent events to issue a call to reason.
Let no man deny the  perils of our time.

While we battle one another, divided by the petty strife of our common history, the tide of a greater conflict is turning against us, threatning to destroy all that we have accomplished.
It is time for us as lords and as individuals to set aside our long standing feudes and unite.

The tides of an unwinnable war are upon us. And we must seek refuge upon higher ground lest we be swept away by the flood.

The Thereins are no more. Whatever semblance of unity and protection they once provided is a phantom...a memory. With our enemies left unchecked, who will you turn to for protection?

The devastation brought by the invaders is self evident. We have seen our homes and communities destroyed by the savage blows of the darkspawn. We have seen first hand our friends and loved ones taken from us by the Orlesian occupation. Unprecedented and unimaginable though they may be, these are the signs of our time.

The time has come my fellow Fereldans to rally to a new banner. In unity lies strength, already many of the bannorn have joined us. Out of the many we shall forge an undivisible whole, capitulating only to a single Throne.

And from that Throne, I...shall watch over you.

From this day forward, let no Fereldan make war on any other Fereldan. Let no Ferelden faction conspire against this new beginning. And let no Fereldan consort with foreign powers.

And to all the enemies of Ferelden seek not to bar our way!
For we shall win through! No matter the cost!"

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 novembre 2010 - 11:16 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Nice speech...but I think it would just entice the nobles against you, and maybe ****** off some foreign nations a bit. It's a declaration of your power.

Then again, Mengsk is well known for pissing off a lot of people.

As for Raynor. It did feel like bashing my head against a wall while I was trying to RP during the Beauty Contest, fun but man can he be an idiot.

 Every action has risk, of course. We agree on the goals, mostly, just not the methods.  

"Judge us not by our methods, but by what we seek to accomplish." The Illusive Man.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 novembre 2010 - 11:22 .