151 réponses à ce sujet

[JoHnDoE14]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well if you ask for how many hours, you ask for content. And if you ask for content we can talk about quality content or 'grind' content. Reason why people felt that the Fade or Deep Roads were too long was that after the first playthrough it wasn't really fun to do it again and again and possibly again.

Escecially the Fade was a lost opportunity. Just take a look a its codex entry. It is supposed to be a dreamworld, a place where nothing has a particular form and spirits can give it any shape they wish, to some extent.
 Instead, it was a boring 4hours chunk of content, with lots of mindless killing, revisiting islands to kill it's demon-ruler and/or check for possible attribute bonuses because you weren't able to do it before, due to not knowing all 4 forms from the beggining, and of course, bland scenery. Note that I am not saying that we should know all four forms from the beggining. Instead, I think it should be completely redesigned.

[DAOME2FTW]

Most games these days don't take very long to " complete " But if this is vaguely like Origins and not completely action/adventure, then during the game you will be able to " free roam " My only request is that they add more side quests. Sort of fable III style.

[crimzontearz]

If the game is shorter than origin we will need replay value....an incentive to play again that is not just different classes...like NG+, here's to hoping

[blothulfur]

I've played some short games that pulled me so far into their plot I never minded the fact that they were over sooner than others. Max Payne 2 grabbed me by my chest hair and would not let go until Late Goodbye started playing, and I think that with such a well contained plot with no faffing around they were able to craft something really beautiful. If NWN2 had set itself more limits I think it would have been a classic up there with BG2 and Torment rather than the flawed gem it is.

[Maria Caliban]

AlexXIV wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm 45 hours into Fallout NV, have discovered 103 locations, am almost at the level cap, and still have a ton of quests. It's very cool but it's also overwhelming at times.

Obsidian needs to learn how to finish what they started. Fallout 3 basically screamed at me 'We wanted to make the game great but we ran out of time'. Much like KotOR 2. I didn't buy Fallout NV yet simply because I am worried to buy another unfinished project.

Don't get me wrong, I think KotOR2 and Fallout3 were great games, but it gets annoying to run in bugs all the time or have characters with the depth of a puddle of mud. If you want to compare these games to Bioware games you should always keep in mind that Bioware products are polished and finished games. while Obsidian sell more or less WIPs.

1. Fallout NV is a finished game.
2. Fallout 3 wasn't made by Obsidian.
3. BioWare games have plenty of bugs and their patch support isn't what it used to be.

[Brockololly]

Maria Caliban wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm 45 hours into Fallout NV, have discovered 103 locations, am almost at the level cap, and still have a ton of quests. It's very cool but it's also overwhelming at times.

Obsidian needs to learn how to finish what they started. Fallout 3 basically screamed at me 'We wanted to make the game great but we ran out of time'. Much like KotOR 2. I didn't buy Fallout NV yet simply because I am worried to buy another unfinished project.

Don't get me wrong, I think KotOR2 and Fallout3 were great games, but it gets annoying to run in bugs all the time or have characters with the depth of a puddle of mud. If you want to compare these games to Bioware games you should always keep in mind that Bioware products are polished and finished games. while Obsidian sell more or less WIPs.

1. Fallout NV is a finished game.
2. Fallout 3 wasn't made by Obsidian.
3. BioWare games have plenty of bugs and their patch support isn't what it used to be.

^This.

And any failings of KOTOR2's rushed ending can mostly be put at Lucasarts for rushing the game out.

And yeah, BioWare games including DAO, Awakening and the DLC have had more than their fair share of bugs and glitches.

[Wulfram]

As a consumer, what I want is longer, higher quality games for less money.

[errant_knight]

SphereofSilence wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

What I'm trying to say is.. When developers hear people say "i never finished DAo" they think.. oh make it shorter. But really what they should do it make it BETTER.

I agree fully, but I also believe that there are cases where making something shorter is, in fact, a big part of making it better. Every book is made stronger by an editor, even if all they do is cut out superflous words and make zero content suggestions.

Games have flow and pacing, and the longer you make the game, the harder a time you have keeping that flow and pacing consistent and engaging. Conversely, you have a point at which a game is simply too short and feels rushed. There's a sweet spot between those states where the game feels like it's perfectly comfortable within its own skin, its own design and story.

So, shorter is not always the way to fix things, but it's certainly a tool any content creator should keep on their belt.

In DAO for instance, the sequence of events from the beginning till the battle of Ostagar, till the long talk at Flemeth's hut, IMO was very well paced. There was something new to be introduced to the player at every turn, tightly placed story threads interweaved with slightly more unique battle scenarios than the rest of the game, almost every quests aren't far away distance-wise, and the quality of the physical environment in those parts were a notch or two above the rest. Here's hoping DA2 achieve at least that level of quality consistently across the board.

I can't describe how utterly depressing it is to hear that everything I loved about DA:O, and made it the best and most remarkable game I'd played in years, was bad and needed to be changed, not just in this but in virtually every area. Really, really depressing.

[PanosSmirnakos]

AlexXIV wrote...

Don't get me wrong, I think KotOR2 and Fallout3 were great games, but it gets annoying to run in bugs all the time or have characters with the depth of a puddle of mud. If you want to compare these games to Bioware games you should always keep in mind that Bioware products are polished and finished games. while Obsidian sell more or less WIPs.

Totally disagree here about the polished and finished games of Bioware you say. Origins was acceptable, but I'll give you some key words to re-think about it: Awakening, Witch Hunt, patch 1.03, in-game DLC authorization (in general all DLC) and many other minor things. Don't get me wrong, I loved Origins and I think that it was the most polished product which had the Dragon Age logo on it, but I can't forget the bug-fest of Awakening, the wrong ending of Witch Hunt (before the DLC patch!), the things patch 1.03 broke which supposed to fix, the graphic glitches I had with Shale and the time I've spent to finally authorize my DLC. Thank Dragon Age Nexus and its modders for the fixes I've found for various bugs. One of my main fears for DA II is how bug-free or not it's going to be. I'm thinking that they had years to polish DA:O and still it had tons of bugs (fortunately not gamebreaking ones), so how they can do it better this time for DA II when they have around a year to complete it? It's a good (rhetorical) question I think.

EDIT: ...And to stay on topic, I think that I've read from a dev that DA II is going to be longer than Awakening but shorter than Origins.  I'll be satisfied if DA II is going to be around 50 hours long without DLC.

Modifié par PanosSmirnakos, 02 novembre 2010 - 02:06 .

[deuce985]

I think it being about as long as ME1/ME2 would be the sweet spot for the game. Around 15 hours for main quest and anywhere from 25-40 hours with side-quests is more than adequate for this game, IMO.

[UltimoCrofto]

 Surprised most are happy with DA2 being similar in length to ME1/2. For me I felt both ME games were too short, and that the narrative suffered for it (ME2 specifically).

It's a shame since DA1 is similar in length to KotOR, and both these games are BioWare's best efforts to my mind, while their shorter titles like Mass Effect and Jade Empire are certainly their weakest; their short length doesn't fully contribute to them being lesser games, but it helps.

A deep RPG, to me, is a game I can play and enjoy for long periods of time (something that can last weeks/months) and Origins achieved this. There were sections that grated a bit (Fade, Deep Roads) but the overall content was very satisfying and made me feel like I had a good understanding of the world, characters, and story. Mass Effect, on the other hand, I barely knew or cared for my companions, and the story was massively all over the place; it was laughable.

Obviously BioWare will likely lose a lot of the "core" PC players of Origins when DA2 arrives and ends up shorter and less deep than Origins, but The Witcher 2 will fill the void easily. Console gamers can be happy with their ME-skinned DA2, and PC gamers can carry on getting their RPG needs from another developer.

I wonder if BioWare will ever do another PC-style RPG like Origins again, or will it always be console-driven titles from now on?

And before I get flamed - I appreciate that BioWare made Origins in the first place, and that it always was for the PC crowd, so I will have to accept that they want to spread the love on consoles too. I'm just curious whether it was a good idea to make DA2 the catalyst for a return to console-specific design, rather than a new IP. Seems a shame to waste all that lore and experience from Origins to be used in a shorter title.

Modifié par UltimoCrofto, 01 novembre 2010 - 06:44 .

[KristofCoulson]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...
I think the real answer is "not long enough"

For some nothing would be. For others, Origins was too long.

I admit to being in the camp of nothing is long enough if i'm enjoying it. 

[SphereofSilence]

errant_knight wrote...

SphereofSilence wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

What I'm trying to say is.. When developers hear people say "i never finished DAo" they think.. oh make it shorter. But really what they should do it make it BETTER.

I agree fully, but I also believe that there are cases where making something shorter is, in fact, a big part of making it better. Every book is made stronger by an editor, even if all they do is cut out superflous words and make zero content suggestions.

Games have flow and pacing, and the longer you make the game, the harder a time you have keeping that flow and pacing consistent and engaging. Conversely, you have a point at which a game is simply too short and feels rushed. There's a sweet spot between those states where the game feels like it's perfectly comfortable within its own skin, its own design and story.

So, shorter is not always the way to fix things, but it's certainly a tool any content creator should keep on their belt.

In DAO for instance, the sequence of events from the beginning till the battle of Ostagar, till the long talk at Flemeth's hut, IMO was very well paced. There was something new to be introduced to the player at every turn, tightly placed story threads interweaved with slightly more unique battle scenarios than the rest of the game, almost every quests aren't far away distance-wise, and the quality of the physical environment in those parts were a notch or two above the rest. Here's hoping DA2 achieve at least that level of quality consistently across the board.

I can't describe how utterly depressing it is to hear that everything I loved about DA:O, and made it the best and most remarkable game I'd played in years, was bad and needed to be changed, not just in this but in virtually every area. Really, really depressing.

Which area are you talking about? In this thread what was discussed was making the game shorter, by that I interpret it as to also mean keeping all the elements that made Origins a good game into an even more quality experience per hour of content. I'd choose a longer game anyday (100hrs+), but concede that not everything will be the way I wanted it to be, so hopefully, what Mike said is delivered as the outcome.

[bzombo]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

NoAngel89 wrote...
man Mike I really got to thank you for talking with us.  I didn't think I get a dev response here. Bet you probably have a busy schedule, so I'm really thankful for you taking the time do so.

Not a problem. The discussion here is a great one; pacing and flow are big areas of focus for me. It's nigh-impossible to get it exactly right, but the effort is always worthwhile.

so, mike, back to the question at hand. do you guys have any idea yet how long the game will come out at? while the game does not have to be as long as dao to be good, i would feel short changed if da2 was only as long as awakening was. thanks again for all your input.

[taine]

Maria Caliban wrote...
3. BioWare games have plenty of bugs and their patch support isn't what it used to be.

To be fair, the only Bioware game that ever really had excellent patch support was NWN, and that was presumably because they had an entire team devoted to nothing but updating the game. Every game before and after that ended up with bugs remaining after patching was complete, though some more obviously than others. 

The only place where I would say that DA:O really failed at pacing was in forcing you to backtrack through empty areas a lot. This was mainly an issue in the Brecallian Forest, where you had to waltz back through two large totally empty areas if you forgot something/needed to free up some inventory space. Would have been easily solved by just making the world map accessible from anywhere (as it already was in some areas). 

Of course, this has always been something of an issue in Bioware games ("You must gather your party before venturing forth..." )

[bzombo]

UltimoCrofto wrote...

 Surprised most are happy with DA2 being similar in length to ME1/2. For me I felt both ME games were too short, and that the narrative suffered for it (ME2 specifically).

It's a shame since DA1 is similar in length to KotOR, and both these games are BioWare's best efforts to my mind, while their shorter titles like Mass Effect and Jade Empire are certainly their weakest; their short length doesn't fully contribute to them being lesser games, but it helps.

A deep RPG, to me, is a game I can play and enjoy for long periods of time (something that can last weeks/months) and Origins achieved this. There were sections that grated a bit (Fade, Deep Roads) but the overall content was very satisfying and made me feel like I had a good understanding of the world, characters, and story. Mass Effect, on the other hand, I barely knew or cared for my companions, and the story was massively all over the place; it was laughable.

Obviously BioWare will likely lose a lot of the "core" PC players of Origins when DA2 arrives and ends up shorter and less deep than Origins, but The Witcher 2 will fill the void easily. Console gamers can be happy with their ME-skinned DA2, and PC gamers can carry on getting their RPG needs from another developer.

I wonder if BioWare will ever do another PC-style RPG like Origins again, or will it always be console-driven titles from now on?

And before I get flamed - I appreciate that BioWare made Origins in the first place, and that it always was for the PC crowd, so I will have to accept that they want to spread the love on consoles too. I'm just curious whether it was a good idea to make DA2 the catalyst for a return to console-specific design, rather than a new IP. Seems a shame to waste all that lore and experience from Origins to be used in a shorter title.

while i love the length of dao (my first couple games were 90+ hours long), i would be perfectly fine if da2 clocks in around 50 hours. i have no idea if that's the case, but i would find a length like that acceptable. i have no clue how long me1&2 were since i never played them, so comparisons to mass effect do nothing for me. of course, if the game were to be closer to dao's length, i would have no complaints.

[youngdamorian]

idk although im very anxious to play tha game i jus think i would hate to spend 60 dollars on a game i could beat in a couple days time

[Spazztik]

Here is my 2 cents on DA2 length .  . . well more like a few bucks and some change lol

Orzammar and The Fade were the slow and annoying parts of (DAO (yay for skip the fade pc mod lol) and if DA2 doesn't have bug chunks of gameplay where I want to bang my head up against the wall I will be very happy. That being said I don't want the game anywhere as short as Awakenings. I could go through Awakening in under 30 hours and get through the good stuff.

I will be able to tolerate a shorter game as long as its a good game, and the expansion and dlc for it make up for some of the lost time. (especially dlc, because seriously Bioware was lacking in decent DAO dlc) .

Give me a good game and keep it minimum 50 hours and give me something I can really sink my teeth into. Something where I'm not going wtf afterwards and make me wanna replay it a few times like I did for DAO and I'm a happy camper. Shouldn't be too hard for Bioware to pull off, I hope. . . .

[Taritu]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

What I'm trying to say is.. When developers hear people say "i never finished DAo" they think.. oh make it shorter. But really what they should do it make it BETTER.

I agree fully, but I also believe that there are cases where making something shorter is, in fact, a big part of making it better. Every book is made stronger by an editor, even if all they do is cut out superflous words and make zero content suggestions.

Games have flow and pacing, and the longer you make the game, the harder a time you have keeping that flow and pacing consistent and engaging. Conversely, you have a point at which a game is simply too short and feels rushed. There's a sweet spot between those states where the game feels like it's perfectly comfortable within its own skin, its own design and story.

So, shorter is not always the way to fix things, but it's certainly a tool any content creator should keep on their belt.

Yah.  I've held editorial positions at times, though I'm more of a writer, and it's rare that the problem is that you need more (though sometimes something important has been left out) it's usually "this scene is unecessary" or "good God, cut out the purple prose".  A lot of authors, once they become famous, are able to avoid the editing they need, and their stories suffer for it.

That said the process can be fun (ie. you can enjoy the fighting in DA for itself or a really good prose stylist can carry some slack story). If it is, you have a bit more slack, even in story driven games like Bioware creates.

[Wyndham711]

Of course a short game would be a disapointment, but I think it this way:
I waited for a game like Origins for easily five years. So it was much appreciated by me that the game was of the longer sort. However, if from now on we start getting DA titles in this biyearly manner or somesuch, a shorter game wont be a big issue, since on average we will be getting more DA goodness per year, than we did before Origins.

Modifié par Wyndham711, 01 novembre 2010 - 08:44 .

[AxelBat]

Last time they wouldn't tell us the exact hours we got Awakening... So while I'm joyously excited about DA2 I'm also fully prepared for it to be... well not very long.

Still, I've already got my copy pre-ordered and I'm sure I'll be content either way, as long as it has replayability. I've played DA:O all the way through about four times, I feel I've gotten more than my money's worth, and if I can do the same with DA2... WELL ROCK ON.

Besides, as it has been said, shorter does not mean worse. I mean... I despise the deep roads and the fade, and there is MANY hours in both of those.I almost got more enjoyment out of ME2 because nothing felt unnecessarily stretched out.

Modifié par AxelBat, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:07 .

[Dsentinel]

I think the biggest problem with it being shorter, is DLC. Because the moment the game comes out there will be additional DLC released, which many will agree should have already been in the game. Then u pay 10 dollars for the Bioware points, to buy a 7 dollar DLC although a great business ploy, is the lamest and most infuriating thing about EA. I still cry at night for spending money on Witch Hunt.

[Aermas]

50 hrs, plus DLC

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Origins had parts that dragged unnecessarily in my opinion

Might I ask which parts those were?

I agree that some parts of DAO ran too long, but I'm curious as to which parts you think needed shortening.

I think Orzammar took too long, as did the first pass through Ostagar.  The werewofl lair was also bigger than it needed to be.

But the Deep Roads, which many people think were too long, I thought they were rushed.  I'd have liked to see the Deep Roads be about twice as large as they were.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
For some nothing would be. For others, Origins was too long.

Eh, this is completely abstract and possibly unhelpful, but I would have personally preferred more smaller dungeons as opposed to the long Deep Roads, Fade sequence, and the Werewolves level. 

But that probably requires more resources than I might have implied.  4x6 isn't the same as 6x4 when the latter means more artwork and writing as opposed to just another level of stuff to kill.  

Saibh wrote...

I think replayability is important to note. If the game is shorter but has more replay value, I'm perfectly happy. I don't think the different Origins added that much in terms of replay to me.

Agreed.  I did all the Origins, but then just read the handful of ways they changed the rest of the game and was satisfied by that.  Never took a non-human beyond the bridge at Ostagar.

Why for the love of all thats holy do people actually want dungeons to be these tiny 32x32 areas? The deep roads lore wise are expansive, why should that not be represented in the game? Gah holy immersion killer batman. [smilie]../../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 01 novembre 2010 - 10:39 .