103 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

"An idealist, I see. Well, if you're going to change the world, you should get started immediately. Lots of world to cover."--Senior Enchanter Torrin

In short, I'm looking for ideas from the tactical sorts on this board for ways to oust the Chantry of Andraste at the hands of both elves and mages. The initial goals of this are twofold: reclaim the Dales for the elves, and remove the Chantry as a political power in Ferelden (if the central authority in Orlais can be destroyed, this would be ideal, but it's not necessary) so that the Circle of Magi can achieve full automony.

I'm using the elf mage Airee Surana as my Grey Warden, but I've added a couple of RP-based embellishments; allowing myself to request a boon for the Alienage from the royalty, having Velanna as my co-conspirator, and forming an alliance between myself and the Tevinter Imperium's archon, whom I've envisioned as a visionary who seeks to bring Tevinter out of its isolationist decay. Beyond that, however, I'm not completely sure where to go; I'm almost positive that I'll have Zathrian leading the Dalish clan, and have some ideas about what to do with everyone, but I would like your suggestions as well. Including for whom to choose as royalty, as I'm rather undecided about whether a unified or divided Ferelden is better for this.

[ddv.rsa]

Reclaiming the dales might be a problem. They lie outside of Ferelden. However if Lanaya becomes Keeper, the Dalish are given land near Ostagar in the epilogue. As for who to put on the throne of Ferelden I recommend (unhardened) Alistair. He'll be far easier to manipulate.

[Xilizhra]

They're given the Hinterlands regardless. And I know where the Dales are; it'd require aggression against Orlais, not Ferelden per se (though mass emigration of Ferelden's elves to the Dales, if it happens, may be a problem for Ferelden). Orlais, of course, is a much larger target and one that requires support to take on.

[ddv.rsa]

Really? I've never got it with Zathrian, wonder why.. All I get is the slide about him dissappearing some years later.

[Costin_Razvan]

What you are asking basically? What choices you should make in game, or a general plan for a fan fiction?

[Xilizhra]

What choices I should make in-game, for starters, and ideas for what should be done afterward in-character. Both, you could say.

[Costin_Razvan]

Give me a few hours and I will reply, currently busy in another matter.

But do tell me what Origin you going for.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 novembre 2010 - 08:16 .

[Xilizhra]

All right; thanks for your time.

[Dean_the_Young]

A first step is to remember that most wars against military superpowers by recently ravaged/blighted war-torn countries are smashed easily.

A second is to remember it's not 'just' Orlais you'll be opposing, but most the Chantry-following Thedas... including much of Ferelden itself, including significant parts of the mage population.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 novembre 2010 - 10:23 .

[Xilizhra]

I'll keep both in mind; it's obvious that Ferelden can't act alone here, and nothing of this sort would be happening for seven years at the least. Prep time is needed.



I'm not entirely sure, however, why the rest of Thedas would get involved in a war over land, especially if they thought it would be to their advantage to see Orlais weakened.

[ddv.rsa]

Xilizhra wrote...

They're given the Hinterlands regardless.  /snip

I checked the toolset for more info on this. I know the DA wiki disagrees, but unless you ask for land as a Dalish Warden they're only given land with Lanaya as Keeper. This is actually because of a bug; if Lanaya is Keeper the game shows the dalish lands epi slide without checking the plot flag. There's even a comment  "PC asked for land in the epilogue" but the check seems to have been omitted accidentally.

You don't need to take my word on this, anyone with the toolset can confirm it.

[Xilizhra]

Hm. Tricky. I may need to take this into account if I'm to be true to the game... perhaps an active Chancellorship would let me mange these things more in-character.

[Costin_Razvan]

I doubt a "significant" part of the mage population would follow the Chantry, certainly there are some loyalists ( like that idiot Wynne who needs to be killed ASAP if you want to free the mages ), but beyond that no.

In regards to freeing the mages. I feel that you cannot just destroy the Circle Towers. Wynne has one valid point: The Templars protect those inside as much as they keep em caged. The best solution in my mind would be to keep the Circle Towers as they are but remove Chantry Authority over decisions that go on in there, but still keep the Templars as Guardians and allow adult mages more freedom to leave the Circle and give some land around the tower for Children to wander around ( supervised of course ).

In some generations mages would be allowed to live among the population, but they would still have to pass the Harrowing. ( but they would not be forced the become Tranquil unless it was by their own choice ).

Placing Bhelen on the Orzammar throne would the best, as you could convince him more easily to help you then say Harrowmont. Preserving the Anvil will grant you Golems which you will desperately need to fight Orlais.

In my mind it would be better to place Anora on the throne then Alistair, while Alistair can be more easily convinced to help you keep in mind that he can also be manipulated by your enemies.

In regards to the Dalish decision, slaughtering the Elves and securing the Werewolves as allies is the best pragmatic choice. Bear in mind that Zathrian and his clan only represent a very small fraction of all the clans and that the werewolves are far stronger then one single clan. You do need their military might if you want to topple Orlais.

As for the City Elves....you can preserve the status quo, send em all off the Dalish or sell em all into slavery. ( I'll explain the last choice in a sec ).

In order for the Dalish and Humans to co-exist the City Elf problem needs to be solved. Many humans wouldn't see a difference between a Dalish and a flat ear, and that's a big problem as most City Elves are criminals. Preserving the status quo would mean that for the Dalish and Humans to Co-exist it would take a very long time ( you can try to give City Elves rights, but it would take generations to make them accepted among the population ).

Sending off to the Dales would solve the problem to an extent, but would make the Dalish VERY pissed off at you for putting these people in their lap. Selling them into slavery would give you a great deal of coin ( which you desperetly need ) and accelerate the process of improving Dalish-Human relations by a great deal ( assuming of course the Dalish don't find out, but eh Loghain was able to keep it a secret from all even Anora ).

I doubt Orlais would receive that much support from other Chantry nations, Nevarra hates Orlais and will only send token support to the Chantry, the Free Marchers are very good friends with Nevarra and have problems of their own, Antiva has no army and the Anderfels is in no position to wage war.

Even so, Orlais has a very strong army. In my mind a Chevalier looks almost like this.




And my personal calculations would place Orlais having at least 20.000 of these guys+ regular troops. Fighting a defensive war in Fereldan is one thing, invading Orlais is a completely different matter.

You may be able to strike a deal with the Architect ( in exchange for Grey Warden blood he uses his Darkspawn to raid Orlais ), and secure an Alliance with Tevinter ( since they have faced the situation you are now facing, an Exalted March over mage freedoms ) but I wouldn't take it for granted.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 novembre 2010 - 05:55 .

[Vit246]

What about the dragon Cult of Andraste? If your character helps them, they gain quite a following. They oppose the Chantry, seem to have no problem with mages and  magic, including blood magic, although we have no idea what their stance is towards Elves. If they could convert enough people, maybe even an entire country like Ferelden, and Ferelden breaks away from the Orlesian Chantry like the English Reformation, then mages might be better off under the dragon cult. Unless the Orlesian Chantry declares an Exalted March on Ferelden and the nearby pro-Chantry nations comply, then there could be serious trouble. If the cult could raise and use an army of dragons with a High Dragon at their side like the Tevinter Imperium did when invading Arlathan, they could be a serious threat to the Chantry. Still not sure how Elves would fare under these conditions.

Modifié par Vit246, 02 novembre 2010 - 11:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'll keep both in mind; it's obvious that Ferelden can't act alone here, and nothing of this sort would be happening for seven years at the least. Prep time is needed.

Preping from nigh-nothing is isn't much prep. The Warden's Army was enough to kill the Archdemon, but it wasn't close to being big enough or extensive to outfight the blight. Orlais, might.

I'm not entirely sure, however, why the rest of Thedas would get involved in a war over land, especially if they thought it would be to their advantage to see Orlais weakened.

Why would they believe it to be to their advantage to see Orlais weakened, mages freed to become abominations, and elves given incentive to rebel in hopes of reclaiming land?

All three of them need to be answered, and no three of them are a given.

Orlais isn't the 100-year occupier to everyone on Thedas: even in Ferelden, it isn't the great end-all enemy that Loghain believes it to be. Orlais is a superpower, and a natural consequence of this is that while it has rivals, it also has allies who rely on it's support, and want it to be strong. Not too strong, but a weak Orlais can be just as bad for them. People who want Orlais crippled are limited.

Whether you can cripple Orlais is a separate question entirely. If you can't, or appear you can't, those who might be interested won't want to be: openly supporting a war against a superpower who then goes on to win is worse than letting the 'opportunity' go by in the first place. You aren't just overcoming Orlais itself: you have to overcome it's reputation before you can gather those few allies.

This also isn't just a war over land. You've made that clear from the start. This is a war about two nigh-uniform social policies across most of Thedas: elven nationalism, and mage freedom. The only mage-friendly nation is Tevinter, which has plenty of problems with the Qunari and doesn't need a new war with Orlais to add to their decline. No one likes the elves. No human nation wants elves to rise up and claim their own land by force of arms as well, for the same reason no feudal society likes peasant rebellions next door: they have a tendency of crossing boarders.

[Costin_Razvan]

Orlais is a superpower, and a natural consequence of this is that while it has rivals, it also has allies who rely on it's support, and want it to be strong. Not too strong, but a weak Orlais can be just as bad for them. People who want Orlais crippled are limited.

Who? Antiva and the Anderfels ( and that's a big maybe for both ).



Nevarra has been at war with Orlais for over 200 years, and the Free Marches are strongly allied with Nevarra.

[Giggles_Manically]

The problem I am seeing here though:

The Werewolves turn violent again, then vanish when people try to wipe them out.

Plus isint the Anvil locked away for years under Bhelen making it impossible to get Golems for a good while.



Also I seriously doubt the Dalish would help anyone who wiped out a clan, at best they would respond with "what like you helped Zathrian's clan?" and ignore you.



Or are we ignoring some events for this thread?

[ddv.rsa]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Placing Bhelen on the Orzammar throne would the best, as you could convince him more easily to help you then say Harrowmont. Preserving the Anvil will grant you Golems which you will desperately need to fight Orlais.

I don't know why you think Bhelen would drag Orzammar into a protracted, two front war to free the elves and mages. How would that benefit the dwarves? Sending men to fight the Blight  is one thing, especially when there's reduced pressure because many darkspawn are on the surface. In the years following a Blight, however, the darkspawn will be gaining momentum again in the Deep Roads. 

I really, really can't see Bhelen diverting soldiers and especially Golems that are sorely needed to defend Orzammar, to someone's personal crusade. Besides, Bhelen wants a better relationship with the surface. How would going to war with a superpower help with that?

If anything, Harrowmont might help you because he's stupid enough. But even that is unlikely because the Assembly would try to stop him.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 03 novembre 2010 - 04:18 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Also I seriously doubt the Dalish would help anyone who wiped out a clan, at best they would respond with "what like you helped Zathrian's clan?" and ignore you.

If you tell me HOW exactly they will find that little bit of information out, then I would be happy to accept an argument about it.

[ddv.rsa]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
In regards to the Dalish decision, slaughtering the Elves and securing the Werewolves as allies is the best pragmatic choice. Bear in mind that Zathrian and his clan only represent a very small fraction of all the clans and that the werewolves are far stronger then one single clan. You do need their military might if you want to topple Orlais.

No, it isn't the pragmatic choice. It actually makes very little sense from a military point of view. There are countless problems with using werewolves as troops, the most important of which is probably how undisciplined they are. Even if you could control and get them to follow orders outside of battle, once you commit them in battle you'd almost certainly lose all control over them. They'd be wild animals attacking their prey. Not to mention the terrible effect they'd have on the morale of your own soldiers and reputation. There's even a very real risk they'd turn on your men. 

The Dalish on the other hand can use tactics, follow orders, and generally be much better soldiers. From a military point of view organisation beats brute force every time. By the way, if you help the Dalish, they do contact more clans to join your army. They even say as much ingame. 

[ddv.rsa]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If you tell me HOW exactly they will find that little bit of information out, then I would be happy to accept an argument about it.

All you need is for ONE of them to escape. Not that far-fetched.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If you tell me HOW exactly they will find that little bit of information out, then I would be happy to accept an argument about it.

All you need is for ONE of them to escape. Not that far-fetched.

They can even come to the conclusion without that.
Zathrian's clan was headed to the Brecillian forest. The werewolves came from there. The werewolves are here and Zathrian's clan was mysteriously massacred. Add how suspicious they are of humans and everyone else, and they can reach the conclusion.

And someone remind me. If you do massacre the Dalish. Don't you get ambushed by this elven woman who wants revenge (the same one that ambushes you when you cure the curse)?
If she and a few others escaped, it is not far fetched that there were other survivors.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 novembre 2010 - 04:40 .

[ddv.rsa]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They can even come to the conclusion without that.
Zathrian's clan was headed to the Brecillian forest. The werewolves came from there. The werewolves are here and Zathrian's clan was mysteriously massacred. Add how suspicious they are of humans and everyone else, and they can reach the conclusion.

And someone remind me. If you do massacre the Dalish. Don't you get ambushed by this elven woman who wants revenge (the same one that ambushes you when you cure the curse)?
If she and a few others escaped, it is not far fetched that there were other survivors.

Yes, she does ambush you.

Also,  the assault on the Dalish is not an encirclement battle, but a rather clumsy frontal assault.  Zathrian and the Warden even stop to talk. A few of them could easily have slipped away. The Dalish children are also missing, which leads me to believe someone took them and fled.

[Costin_Razvan]

If she and a few others escaped, it is not far fetched that there were other survivors.

And what does she say if you persuade her to not attack ( which you can ? Oh right, that they brought this upon themselves and that she will say to the other clans exactly that.

Problem solved really.

  By the way, if you help the Dalish, they do contact more clans to join your army. They even say as much ingame.  

The whole point is to give the Dales back to the Dalish, but sacrificing one clan is well worth the price to gain the Werewolves ( especially a very weakened clan ).

 They'd be wild animals attacking their prey. Not to mention the terrible effect they'd have on the morale of your own soldiers and reputation. There's even a very real risk they'd turn on your men.  

They don't do that in the final battle. The problem with them going wild in the Epilogue is that they are trying to cage themselves when the beasts inside them wants to fight.

I can give them an enemy to fight, a way to unleash their rage.

 The Dalish children are also missing, which leads me to believe someone took them and fled

That's a gameplay mechanic. The ESRB board would never allow a game in which you slaughter children to get away with anything less then Adult Rating.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 novembre 2010 - 05:01 .

[Lukertin]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If she and a few others escaped, it is not far fetched that there were other survivors.

And what does she say if you persuade her to not attack ( which you can ? Oh right, that they brought this upon themselves and that she will say to the other clans exactly that.

Problem solved really.

Because throughout history, recipients of messages have always never interpreted them the way they were meant to be interpreted