103 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

Because throughout history, recipients of messages have always never interpreted them the way they were meant to be interpreted

The message is sent by one of their own, so I would find it hard to believe they wouldn't accept what she tells them as the truth ( and it is the truth. Zathrian and his clan got slaughtered because he used blood magic on the Werewolves and the rest of the clan had no big problem with it ).

 Zathrian's clan was headed to the Brecillian forest. The werewolves came from there. The werewolves are here and Zathrian's clan was mysteriously massacred. Add how suspicious they are of humans and everyone else, and they can reach the conclusion.  

Assuming they find out his clan was actually massacred instead of vanishing ( if you kill the survivor group that is ), remember that clans rarely keep in contact except for a meeting once every few years I think. So they wouldn't even know at first that Zathrian's clan heading there ( unless they trust local humans for their word on where they saw Zathrian's clan heading ). a DE elf does not know of that.

And speculation that anyone else survived is just that: Speculation. 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 novembre 2010 - 05:14 .

[Lukertin]

Why do you think they would see it that way? All they will know is that an elf who spent her entire life with humans came across a Dalish camp and was responsible for killing almost all the elves there. Few would care about the reason why she chose to do it. Furthermore, even if they accept that Zathrian should have paid for his crimes, there really is no justification for killing the rest of the camp.

[Costin_Razvan]

Furthermore, even if they accept that Zathrian should have paid for his crimes, there really is no justification for killing the rest of the camp.

In your eyes, in mine there is plenty of it.

The said elf who can come to accept it as a price they had to pay even states it herself that the people knew to an extent. This was a woman who just lost her loved ones and she can be persuaded to accept it. 

And you tell me the other Dalish Clans wouldn't accept it, why? I can even see her talking with the elder of another clan when asked what happened to her own.

"Zathrian practiced blood magic on innocents and we allowed it to happen. We were made to pay for our crimes in blood by the same ones we harmed."

The reason why I almost always went with the Werewolves ( besides my pragmatic ones for securing what I consider superior troops ) is that I do firmly believe the rest of the Clan was not ignorant of what Zathrian had done.

Seriously, I figured in roughly 10 minutes that something was off with what he was telling us and these people live their entire lives with him and don't question it? 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 novembre 2010 - 05:20 .

[ddv.rsa]

Um, I'm not sure "blood magic!" would have the same horror effect on the Dalish. The Chantry are ones who are offended by it.

[Costin_Razvan]

Um, I'm not sure "blood magic!" would have the same horror effect on the Dalish. The Chantry are ones who are offended by it.

Maybe it is.

Perhaps going with: He cursed hundreds of innocents to be transformed into wild beasts out of his desire for revenge and we allowed it to happen. Then when the beasts came to exact justice upon us we were slaughtered.

The only reason why I am not perfectly OK with this choice is that Werewolves want to be cured...but that's where my Pragmatism comes in.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 novembre 2010 - 05:23 .

[Lukertin]

Still...why would the other elves care about what a Keeper of another clan did to a bunch of humans? Would the Dalish sympathize with humans over another of their kind who has suffered at the hands of humans?

"Zathrian practiced blood magic on innocents" -- Reasonable people aren't going to take a statement like that at face value. If they were all innocent Zathrian would have no reason to do what he did in the first place. It wouldn't be the first time a group has paid for the sins of a few of its individuals, and I doubt everyone would recognize the distinction, or even care to. For all you know members of the other clans might think humans are all guilty, or that they deserve to die just for being human. They could be sitting around waiting for any reason to kill some humans with the most tenuous of justifications. The Dalish Elf origin story represents as much.

Also, "Zathrian practiced blood magic on innocents we allowed it to happen. We were made to pay for our crimes in blood by the same ones we harmed." as an argument for justifying killing the entire camp is logically inconsistent.  A couple humans kidnapped Zathrian's children, killed one and raped the other, and the rest of the human settlement allowed it to happen / did nothing to put forth the ones responsible / could care less.  And they all got punished for it.  So Zathrian turning them into werewolves isn't ok, but the latter act of killing all the elves for Zathrian's acts is?  How does that even make sense?

Modifié par Lukertin, 03 novembre 2010 - 05:40 .

[ddv.rsa]

Ha! Good point!

[Costin_Razvan]

Really? What does the Lady say?

Ah yes. "The humans who wronged you are centuries dead." So he did not use the curse on an entire settlement, he used it just on those responsible.

What I hold him responsible for is allowing the curse to spread unchecked even long after the ones who raped his daughter were dead. He has no excuse for what did, nor does his clan for just allowing him to do it.

The Dalish Elf origin story represents as much.

And the opinion of a single reckless and young Dalish Hunter does not represent the opinion of the whole, not by a long shot. Tell the DE Origin Keeper about what Zathrian did and I would be surprised if she wouldn't be horrified.

I slaughtered the elves as a DE, and why? Because I saw first hand just how close the elves in a clan are to each other, in a such a community secrets like the one Zathrian is hiding would be known among them, and they do know it. I rp-ed my DE in such a way that she was disgusted by what Zathrian did and what his people allowed him to do.

They are just as responsible for the curse as Zathrian is.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 novembre 2010 - 05:55 .

[Lukertin]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Really? What does the Lady say?

Ah yes. "The humans who wronged you are centuries dead." So he did not use the curse on an entire settlement, he used it just on those responsible.

Even if he just used it on those responsible, you think the curse wouldn't have affected members of the rest of the settlement?  They would have been eaten, or turned.  Also pretty much every religious tradition ever, has at one time or another, recognized the idea that children pay for the crimes of their parents (including the one in the game).  It isn't far-fetched that individuals in DA care to recognize the distinction.  Elves have suffered at the hands of humans for generations, besides, Zathrian has no reason to believe that if he ended the curse, the ex-werewolves wouldn't try to kill him anyway.

The Dalish Elf origin story represents as much.

And the opinion of a single reckless and young Dalish Hunter does not represent the opinion of the whole, not by a long shot. Tell the DE Origin Keeper about what Zathrian did and I would be surprised if she wouldn't be horrified.

I never said it did represent the opinion of the whole.  I said some members feel that way.  Those members that would feel that way, would likely want to kill the PC upon hearing the story of what happened to Zathrian's clan regardless of the context, don't you think?

I slaughtered the elves as a DE, and why? Because I saw first hand just how close the elves in a clan are to each other, in a such a community secrets like the one Zathrian is hiding would be known among them, and they do know it. I rp-ed my DE in such a way that she was disgusted by what Zathrian did and what his people allowed him to do.

They are just as responsible for the curse as Zathrian is.

So now the rest of the Dalish should share the opinion of your PC ?  I didn't know the opinion of a single Dalish Elf represented the opinion of the whole community.

Modifié par Lukertin, 03 novembre 2010 - 06:11 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I never said it did represent the opinion of the whole. I said some members feel that way. Those members that would feel that way, would likely want to kill the PC upon hearing the story of what happened to Zathrian's clan regardless of the context, don't you think?

Some young members would maybe feel that way, but I cannot see a keeper feeling like that and they call the shots.

So now the rest of the Dalish should share the opinion of your PC ? I didn't know the opinion of a single Dalish Elf represented the opinion of the whole communit

The point was that a DE could just as easily be disguisted as they would be pissed, take note that most important would be HOW the events would be transmitted by the survivors ( and speculating that there are more then just that small group is just that: speculation ).

Assuming said survivors even live past their meeting with my Warden to carry the word. Even so some would wonder what happened to Zathrian but I find it unlikely they would make the connection.

 Zathrian has no reason to believe that if he ended the curse, the ex-werewolves wouldn't try to kill him anyway

Zathrian dies if he ends the curse and he knows this damned well ( The Lady mentions that this is why he doesn't want to end it, to keep himself alive ), or are you one of those people who sides with him? If so I got nothing more to discuss.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 novembre 2010 - 06:16 .

[Lukertin]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Some young members would maybe feel that way, but I cannot see a keeper feeling like that and they call the shots.

If Zathrian was a keeper and he felt the way he did, why can't you see other keepers being just as radical?  Not everyone is going to be a clone of "humans raped me continuously but I don't hate them" Lanaya.

The point was that a DE could just as easily be disguisted as they would be pissed, take note that most important would be HOW the events would be transmitted by the survivors ( and speculating that there are more then just that small group is just that: speculation ).

Assuming said survivors even live past their meeting with my Warden to carry the word. Even so some would wonder what happened to Zathrian but I find it unlikely they would make the connection.

Some would wonder what happened to Zathrian.  Some would know that Zathrian has lived a very long time, longer than he should.  Some would know that the Dalish have a treaty with the Grey Wardens to combat the blight.  Some would hear about werewolves joining Fereldens in the battle in Denerim, a battle in which elves were curiously absent.  Cue speculation. 

Besides, I'm sure they would hear stories about what happened from your party members blabbing their mouths to everyone who will listen.  Leliana writes an entire story about your exploits, no?  Can't imagine people would be in the dark with respect to Zathrian's fate.

Modifié par Lukertin, 03 novembre 2010 - 06:23 .

[Costin_Razvan]

If Zathrian was a keeper and he felt the way he did, why can't you see other keepers being just as radical? Not everyone is going to be a clone of "humans raped me continuously but I don't hate them" Lanaya.

Lanaya, the DE Keeper, Velanna's Keeper are of the same thinking. At best you are arguing for one quarter of the Dalish Clans...and you know what? I am perfectly fine with that in return for the Werewolves.

The Dalish are useless in a pitched battle against Chevaliers in my eyes. Troops that will raid enemy territory and ravage supply lines? Certainly.

Troops that will make a difference against a heavily armored Knight? Not so much.

Some would wonder what happened to Zathrian. Some would know that Zathrian has lived a very long time, longer than he should. Some would know that the Dalish have a treaty with the Grey Wardens to combat the blight. Some would hear about werewolves joining Fereldens in the battle in Denerim, a battle in which elves were curiously absent. Cue speculation.

1) The DE didn't know that Zathrian and his clan were in the Brecillian forest. The DE most certainly doesn't, and even if some do it's a BIG forest. It's an assumption to think the Warden found Zathrian's clan, and an even bigger assumption to make the Warden somehow is responsible for them missing. 

They may just assume Zathrian went north ( as he tells us he planned on doing ) instead of them getting attacked which was not expected by even Zathrian.

2) Some would know about Grey Warden treaty and would just assume the Wardens did not contact them. If the Elves really hate the humans as much as you think, then why would they not assume Zathrian just refused to honor the treaty to save a single human kingdom?

Besides, I'm sure they would hear stories about what happened from your party members blabbing their mouths to everyone who will listen. Leliana writes an entire story about your exploits, no? Can't imagine people would be in the dark with respect to Zathrian's fate.

Leliana? Nope, sorry dead or in the Deep Roads on an expedition or in Orlais working to fight the Bards per my orders.

Wynne? Dead.

The rest? Besides Oghren ( which I would make a very good point to tell him not to spread that story ever ) I cannot see the others spreading the news of what happened there.

What you are completely ignoring here is time. Before the Dalish would even start suspecting something wrong happened to Zathrian ( again they don't meet except every few years ) then I would have already given them lands near Ostagar and preparations for war against Orlais would have been well underway. ( that's just a few clans settling at Ostagar, not all...it would take long for them to find out about the deal in the first place ).

Even if they find out ( which is a big IF in my mind ), then I cannot imagine them all pulling out after they are already part of my little Alliance against Orlais. A few of them? Most certainly.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 novembre 2010 - 06:43 .

[Xilizhra]

Allow me to end this: the Dalish decision is already made. My Warden is siding with Zathrian and killing off the werewolves. This is non-negotiable; she wants Zathrian's magical knowledge, as well as being, well, an elven partisan.

[Giggles_Manically]

Xilizhra wrote...

Allow me to end this: the Dalish decision is already made. My Warden is siding with Zathrian and killing off the werewolves. This is non-negotiable; she wants Zathrian's magical knowledge, as well as being, well, an elven partisan.

I typically end the curse in most PT.
Zathrian dies fixing his mistakes.
The Curse is ended, and the lady/witherfang is gone.
People are cured, the innocent people can go home.

Plus I fulfill the treaty at the same time.

Works out the best really. 

[Xilizhra]

Well, morally speaking it is the best, but my Warden sees Zathrian as too great an asset for the revolution.

[Giggles_Manically]

Zathrian is also obsessed with Revenge and may or may not make the best ally in the long run.

For the Blight yes, but I severely doubt that he would be a stable ally in the long run.

[Mnemnosyne]

In response to the original question, freeing the mages is pretty much impossible without essentially destroying the Chantry as an authority, which would essentially mean causing it to cease being the dominant religion on Thedas.

The Chantry would never allow mages across Thedas to be free from their supervision.  Even just one Circle of Magi outside their jurisdiction has the Divine considering an Exalted March, they would never allow all of them to be free, and the mages' own split on the matter, along with the difficulty and inability to coordinate plans (since they would be planning under the very noses of their enemy) make them less of a force than otherwise possible.  Tevinter has held off the Chantry because it has many mages, magic is encouraged, and they can act in coordination and unison.  They also have a specific land to defend, supply lines, and an entire country backing them.  The mages have none of these things - they would not even be able to supply themselves without food being brought into the Circles from outside.

Similarly, the Chantry has the support of the vast majority of the civilian population because of the fear of mages they have instilled over generations of religious dogma.  The people would come down firmly on the side of the Chantry in this.  Some of the Chantry leadership would probably like nothing better than for the mages to give them a good enough excuse to finally declare that all magic is to be forbidden, and begin a campaign of extermination against mages.  Without reason they can't go that far (and indeed, many of their own people would be opposed to it - a reasonable man like Greagoir, for example, would be opposed to the extermination of all mages, unless there was a really good reason for it - like a widespread mage rebellion) but if mages attempted to free themselves by force then they would be very capable of doing that.

The dalish are a far easier proposition - in the short term, at least.  That would just be a matter of political power and land - one nation could give up land willingly, or sufficient political pressure and the threat of serious war - if one could find forces for such a serious war - might be enough to allow them to reclaim the Dales.  It should be noted that any alliance with Tevinter is unlikely to be successful.  Tevinter clearly still uses elven slaves on a large enough scale that they can officially run the slaving operation in the Alienage and pay Loghain considerable sums of money in order to do so, therefore it's not simply an underground black market.  Even beyond the current things Tevinter is doing against elves, it's clear that many or most of the Dalish definitely blame humans in general and the Tevinter Imperium in particular for their situation.  I suspect that many clans, perhaps even most clans, would be wholly unwilling to ally with the Imperium regardless of the level of potential gain.  This is all assuming the Imperium were even open to such a proposition.  They have their own troubles with the Qunari and the always-looming threat that the Divine will declare another Exalted March at any time that they seem weakened enough to potentially make it successful this time around.

For military allies, Branka might actually be the best proposition, if one is willing to meet her price.  She seems willing to fashion golems for others, so it would likely be feasible to work out a deal whereby one supplies her with people for the golemization process, and she supplies a percentage of those people back as functional golems.  A force of golems five to ten thousand strong might be enough leverage to get the elves a portion of the Dales ceded back to them.

However, in the long-term, it is likely that the Chantry would again grow intolerant of the elves refusing to worship their Maker, so another Exalted March would likely be declared.  One of the key things to remember is that the Chantry is not a peaceful religion, and one of its core tenets states that the Chant of Light must be spread to all corners of the world in order for the Maker to return.  This means that any significant population that refuses to convert to their beliefs must be treated as an enemy, because their mere existence without following the Chant of Light means the Maker will not deign to return.  So when another Exalted March against them is declared, it is likely they would lose the ensuing war, again.  It is possible that if they were very well prepared they might hold out as Tevinter has, against several Exalted Marches, but at first glance would appear to be considerably less likely.

The best proposition for the elves to get a homeland that they can keep is, sadly, to find a really crappy place to live.  Places that are naturally very defensible - mountainous terrain, or underground.  A united force of elves, especially with golem military assistance if they make a deal with Branka, would likely be able to secure an underground home.  Bhelen would likely have no problem making the gesture of granting them a particular thaig if they can secure it for themselves, for instance.  He loses nothing that hasn't already been lost for ages, and gains a trading partner.  As well as putting another target for the darkspawn out there, which would reduce the pressure on Orzammar.  A place like that would be defensible enough and out of the way enough that nobody is going to make a hell of a lot of effort to take it from them.  Too much trouble, simply put.  The problem of course is that it seems highly possible that the elves would prefer to continue their wandering rather than be forced to live in a cave.

[Xilizhra]

In response to the original question, freeing the mages is pretty much impossible without essentially destroying the Chantry as an authority, which would essentially mean causing it to cease being the dominant religion on Thedas.

This is true. Theoretically, though, if the Imperial Chantry were to gain dominance over the Chantry of Andraste, that could take a lot of pressure off the mages... but that sort of conversion would be tricky, to say the least.



I will say that freedom is only the beginning for this revolution. Ultimately, the plan is for a new elven realm akin to Arlathan to rise again, and for the Tevinter Imperium to control the rest of Thedas (under a new political system, likely, but still a magocratic one). This is why Airee wants the knowledge of Zathrian's ritual, so that she and her co-conspirators can be immortal and guide the whole project throughout the many years it'd take.



Taking some things in your post into account, the idea about using defensible housing sounds like it'd work very well if it was used for mages; that's likely how Dagna's Circle will be installed anyway, and secret bases always have good possibilities. For the Imperium and elves, this'll take some excellent diplomacy on Airee's part, but she's good at persuasion and she was instrumental in at least giving them the Hinterlands... it's a start, that I feel could be expanded.

[Costin_Razvan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Allow me to end this: the Dalish decision is already made. My Warden is siding with Zathrian and killing off the werewolves. This is non-negotiable; she wants Zathrian's magical knowledge, as well as being, well, an elven partisan.

Explain one thing then: How is siding with Zathrian going to help you? If you want magical knowledge you got Arvenus who is also old and very skilled in blood magic.

Keeping Zathrian as a leader is a bad move because he will create tensions between Elves and Humans ( and you DO need the full support of Fereldan is order to win against Orlais ).

[Xilizhra]

Avernus doesn't know the immortality ritual that Zathrian does, and that's very important to my master plan. If necessary, I think that I can convince him to rein in his more violent impulses if I explain to him that I have a plan for bringing the elves back to the world in a big way.

[Giggles_Manically]

Zathrian was only immortal since he created a curse that made monsters.

Which his life force was twisted into.

[Xilizhra]

I think that happens if you summon and bind a powerful spirit using blood magic in some way or other; it doesn't matter what the function is.

[Giggles_Manically]

The elves were probably not immortal anyway.



Long lived yes, but immortal? I doubt it.

[Xilizhra]

Perhaps, perhaps not; regardless, I and my counterparts need immortality to see this whole thing through.

[Giggles_Manically]

This plan makes me laugh really.

No human power in Fereldan will back an Elf attempt at a homeland.

Since people fear mages they will not back an army of bloodmages (ie Tevinter armies of old).



You will have a lot of power, but its shakey and one reversal could break the whole thing. What if Orlais says "You can have the Dales if you abandon Fereldan" or since they are far richer than a war weary nation they can just bribe them out from under you.



Bhelen is very smart and if he saw that Orlais and other nations offered more money or TRADE, he would side with them. His power rests on trade, and Fereldan really cant compete with Orlais in that regard.



Reforms against oppressive regimes are all well and good but most City Elves would rather stay in an alienage, rather than risk losing their life in some war.



The setting and time frame of Fereldan is not one that supports this, the people fear and/or HATE elves and mages, they wont back this up. In time the Chantry will become a toothless institution probably with the rise of nationalism.



However racism never goes out of style, you may get many elves on your side but the other powers that are all human dominated will NOT side with this. They may use this uprising to shatter Fereldan, but none of them give a crap about elves, and wont let this work. Or they risk seeing uprisings like this in their own lands.