103 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Perhaps I'll need to resort to a different plan, then... I was hoping to get as far as possible without needing to resort to purely magical solutions, however, such as using Architect-provided darkspawn mercenaries or human-specific magical plagues.

[Giggles_Manically]

Xilizhra wrote...

Perhaps I'll need to resort to a different plan, then... I was hoping to get as far as possible without needing to resort to purely magical solutions, however, such as using Architect-provided darkspawn mercenaries or human-specific magical plagues.

ummm...
So to get your way you will commit genocide?
Where most of the people who will die did NOTHING to deserve this?

Also the architect cant be found after Awakening when the Warden's go to look for him.

[Xilizhra]

So to get your way you will commit genocide?
Where most of the people who will die did NOTHING to deserve this?

Success demands commitment. Commitment demands sacrifice. If a primary problem is demographics, Airee will solve it.

She doesn't hate humans, but she's willing (albeit not terribly happily) to remove any potential enemies no matter who and where they are.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 03 novembre 2010 - 07:23 .

[Giggles_Manically]

You really think that will help?

Introduce a plague that kills men, women, children, young, old or anyone who is not an elf all to get a new elf homeland?

You think you can get away with that?



The other nations will attack you and butcher every elf they get their hands on. No one will ever have sympathy for elves again. So unless you plan on killing all the humans in Thedas, you will make things worse.

[Xilizhra]

Not just for that; it's also to support the emancipation of the Circle of Magi. And I don't plan on doing it openly. Where would you get that idea? I intend to lead the relief efforts, and recruit whatever elves are available as aid workers.

[Giggles_Manically]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not just for that; it's also to support the emancipation of the Circle of Magi. And I don't plan on doing it openly. Where would you get that idea? I intend to lead the relief efforts, and recruit whatever elves are available as aid workers.

Look at ME2 for an example.

If only HUMANS are dying, and ELVES dont, then... 
People will assume elves are going it.

Like during the black plauge when people blamed the Jewish people for spreading it, because they werent dying.
Even though, they burned their garbage, washed their hands, and had proper sanitation where they lived.
Which the rest of Europe did not quite have the hang of.

[Xilizhra]

Dwarves and qunari aren't dying either. I do see the problem in that neither race is usually in as intimate contact with humans as elves are, though... hm. Theoretically, I could make it cross-species and inoculate the Dalish beforehand, though this would wipe out the city elf demographic as well, and I'm not sure if that would be a good thing.

[Giggles_Manically]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dwarves and qunari aren't dying either. I do see the problem in that neither race is usually in as intimate contact with humans as elves are, though... hm. Theoretically, I could make it cross-species and inoculate the Dalish beforehand, though this would wipe out the city elf demographic as well, and I'm not sure if that would be a good thing.

So you will create a perfect killer of a disease.
Spread it to all the humans in Thedas (Killing millions of innocents)
Give the shot to all the elves.
Then just wait for them to die and for the Qunari to steam roll you then I take it.

All without anyone catching onto the plot of course.

[Xilizhra]

Not necessarily, I'm just throwing ideas around. If you have a different and preferably less murderous one, I'm all ears.

[Giggles_Manically]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not necessarily, I'm just throwing ideas around. If you have a different and preferably less murderous one, I'm all knife ears.

Yes I think avoiding Genocide is a good thing.

Safest thing to do is to build a strong and proud culture for the elves. One that will last.

Like the Metis people of Canada, no matter what happened to them they keep their culture alive for a very long time through whatever happened to them.
People at one time called them half breeds, and hated them but know no one cares that you are Metis in Canada, in fact its cool to be a Metis if you live in Manitoba.

Trying to force change is a risk, a very large one. Time and subtle change can be more powerful than armies, or conflict when used right.

[Xilizhra]

That's pretty much what we have already; their cultures are already fairly strong. It's not what we need; forcing change may be a risk, but the elves need their home again (along with the whole mage emancipation thing).

[Giggles_Manically]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's pretty much what we have already; their cultures are already fairly strong. It's not what we need; forcing change may be a risk, but the elves need their home again (along with the whole mage emancipation thing).

Which will not happen in the current situation that Thedas exists in.
At best you will lead to so many deaths, that even if you win it will taste as bitter as having lost.

[Addai]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not necessarily, I'm just throwing ideas around. If you have a different and preferably less murderous one, I'm all ears.

Go sit on a beach in Antiva and sip mai tais with little umbrellas in them.

Agree with Giggles- no human realm, least of all Tevinter, is going to get behind an elven kingdom.  And lose their slave labor?  Or are you planning to use city elves as bargaining chips, they get all the city elves in return for leaving the itty bitty Dalish kingdomlet alone?

The dwarves also have little incentive to upset the system of trade with the Chantry for lyrium.  Why in the world would they go to war for you?

[Xilizhra]

I just realized the irony of us talking about this what with my current sig quote, and my Warden here having initially romanced Zevran... but I can stand death if it brings victory.

[Xilizhra]

Agree with Giggles- no human realm, least of all Tevinter, is going to get behind an elven kingdom. And lose their slave labor? Or are you planning to use city elves as bargaining chips, they get all the city elves in return for leaving the itty bitty Dalish kingdomlet alone?

This requires some inferences and RP-based liberties, I admit. But the purpose of this alliance is so that the elves in turn aid the Tevinter in their own plans to expand once more.

The dwarves also have little incentive to upset the system of trade with the Chantry for lyrium. Why in the world would they go to war for you?

Dagna's Circle there would bring the threat of a Chantry Exalted March.

[Giggles_Manically]

Xilizhra wrote...

I just realized the irony of us talking about this what with my current sig quote, and my Warden here having initially romanced Zevran... but I can stand death if it brings victory.

How many deaths are worth your goal?
A thousand?
Ten Thousand?
A hundred thousand?
A million ?
TEN million?

Any war you fight will be bloody and only make things worse in the end.
Humans will despise elves, and thanks to your actions will never forgive them.

[Xilizhra]

I don't know. I'll try to minimize the deaths, but I'm willing to weather them if it allows me to win... and I still feel that I don't need to be forever hated if I play my hand correctly.

[Giggles_Manically]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know. I'll try to minimize the deaths, but I'm willing to weather them if it allows me to win... and I still feel that I don't need to be forever hated if I play my hand correctly.

Ohh?
You do realize that Muslims still hate Christians for killing everyone when they first took Jerusalem in the first crusade?
That many Korean people still dont like Japanese people for all the times that Japan tried to invade them?

Those are only a few.
Never underestimate the human ability to hate, if you start a war that kills people the world over, elves will not just be second class citizens. They will be a hated outside group that humans will wage war on for a very long time.

You revolution may work in the now, but it may end up costing people a lot in the long run. What happens if your glorious new homeland is taken again, and people just kill all the elves rather than enslave them?

Things are not linear and often have effects that reach far beyond when they happened.

[Giggles_Manically]

Here is an example of two revolutions that worked without killing people, using violence, or leaving deep hatred between the groups:



Martin Luther King Jr, and Mahatma Gandhi

They both achieved their goals, won freedom and a better life for people all without using violence or starting a war that left a horrible mark in their country.

[Xilizhra]

Unfortunately, neither one is applicable to my own situation. MLK's style doesn't help with the whole "elves have their lifespans drained by proximity to humans" thing, and Gandhi was trying to liberate his own country that was being occupied by a foreign power.

[Giggles_Manically]

It was more to show that NON violent means can and do work just as well as violent means.

[Addai]

Particularly as not all elves are going to go along with the idea of armed rebellion even short of the Dr. Mengele routine. Velanna's clan was split over the idea of acting against a few locals. Not everyone in Zathrian's clan is happy about what he does. Marethari chews you out if you kill the humans in the Dalish origin.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

It was more to show that NON violent means can and do work just as well as violent means.

That depends entirely on circumstances specific of their timeframe and location.
Gandhi could not have done what he did in the 19th century. 20th century world politics, specifically WW2 and Britain's decline as an Empire, were a massive and vital contributor to Gandhi's success. Not to belittle him, but more often then not people over-estimate how important he was.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 novembre 2010 - 10:13 .

[sylvanaerie]

Frankly, every time I see the title of this thread I keep getting that line from the song in my head. It's been stuck there all day

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 03 novembre 2010 - 10:15 .

[Costin_Razvan]

And people call me a radical....uhm ok...



I am too tired right now, but just a few words: If you don't ensure that the rise of a Dalish Nation and the establishment of mage freedoms is NOT done as quietly as possible and with moderation then you will not be able to gain allies to defeat Orlais.