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[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
You do realize that Muslims still hate Christians for killing everyone when they first took Jerusalem in the first crusade?

Just thought I'd clarify that Christians who already lived in Muslim lands prior to the Crusades were unharmed and were relatively speaking left alone.  And of course when Jerusalem was retaken, its Christian population was not harmed, at least compared to what the Crusaders did (cannibalism at Maara).

So it wasn't that much hate and I'd say the hate is more directed towards European foreigners who at the time were barbaric than Christianity perse.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 novembre 2010 - 10:38 .

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
You do realize that Muslims still hate Christians for killing everyone when they first took Jerusalem in the first crusade?

Just thought I'd clarify that Christians who already lived in Muslim lands prior to the Crusades were unharmed and were relatively speaking left alone.  And of course when Jerusalem was retaken, its Christian population was not harmed, at least compared to what the Crusaders did (cannibalism at Maara).

So it wasn't that much hate and I'd say the hate is more directed towards European foreigners who at the time were barbaric than Christianity perse.

The cannibalism part I did read about and look into, but I am not so sure it happened.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
The cannibalism part I did read about and look into, but I am not so sure it happened.

Mostly all primary sources concerning this event were Frankish and not Muslims, so I don't see why not.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
You do realize that Muslims still hate Christians for killing everyone when they first took Jerusalem in the first crusade?

Just thought I'd clarify that Christians who already lived in Muslim lands prior to the Crusades were unharmed and were relatively speaking left alone.  And of course when Jerusalem was retaken, its Christian population was not harmed, at least compared to what the Crusaders did (cannibalism at Maara).

So it wasn't that much hate and I'd say the hate is more directed towards European foreigners who at the time were barbaric than Christianity perse.

Not going to get into this as it's not a topic of the thread, but I think "left alone" is a bit of a stretch.  In some cases, a very, very big stretch.  OTOH, eastern Christians suffered under the Crusades as much as the Muslim population.

But yeah, Giggles' point is well taken, that memories run long on such things.  Regardless, I still say that the idea of any human kingdom in Thedas allying with the elves is far-fetched.  Maybe they would go along and then turn on the elves and enslave them.  All in all, it sounds like a non-starter to me.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Just thought I'd clarify that Christians who already lived in Muslim lands prior to the Crusades were unharmed and were relatively speaking left alone. 

Not going to get into this as it's not a topic of the thread, but I think "left alone" is a bit of a stretch.  In some cases, a very, very big stretch.  OTOH, eastern Christians suffered under the Crusades as much as the Muslim population.

I meant Eastern Christians were generally left alone by the Muslims, not the Crusaders.

[Dean_the_Young]

Wait, so now the plan is more or less kill a hundredhumans for every elf in the great crusade? Given that there would be eventual retaliations and wars for such a crusade, and genocide rarely goes unopposed.



That will still leave more humans than elves when the last elf dies... and the Qunari still ready to march over. And it even assumes you won't be opposed by the very factions you claim to be fighting for: mages who oppose you, elves who don't care/think you're wrong/doomed to fail.

[Giggles_Manically]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wait, so now the plan is more or less kill a hundredhumans for every elf in the great crusade? Given that there would be eventual retaliations and wars for such a crusade, and genocide rarely goes unopposed.

That will still leave more humans than elves when the last elf dies... and the Qunari still ready to march over. And it even assumes you won't be opposed by the very factions you claim to be fighting for: mages who oppose you, elves who don't care/think you're wrong/doomed to fail.

Thats always a consideration to make.

Just when everyone thinks its safe:
The Qunari or the Darkspawn show up to crash the party.

[Costin_Razvan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wait, so now the plan is more or less kill a hundredhumans for every elf in the great crusade? Given that there would be eventual retaliations and wars for such a crusade, and genocide rarely goes unopposed.

That will still leave more humans than elves when the last elf dies... and the Qunari still ready to march over. And it even assumes you won't be opposed by the very factions you claim to be fighting for: mages who oppose you, elves who don't care/think you're wrong/doomed to fail.

Even with full unity, the elves+mages wouldn't stand a chance in hell against Orlais+the Chantry.

Hell, even an alliance between Orzammar+Fereldan+The Werewolves+The Dalish Elves+Golems+Mages would find itself in the situation where they would be fighting tooth and nail to win ( basically what I am planning, but the outcome of a war is never certain. You can only prepare as best you can and hope that you will be able to defeat your enemy if not in numbers then in the quality of your arms and superior tactics ).

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Just thought I'd clarify that Christians who already lived in Muslim lands prior to the Crusades were unharmed and were relatively speaking left alone. 

Not going to get into this as it's not a topic of the thread, but I think "left alone" is a bit of a stretch.  In some cases, a very, very big stretch.  OTOH, eastern Christians suffered under the Crusades as much as the Muslim population.

I meant Eastern Christians were generally left alone by the Muslims, not the Crusaders.

Yes, I know.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Yes, I know.

Which isn't that much of a stretch, the only real exception was under the Fatimid Caliph al Hakim, who by most accounts was a bit insane. Relatively speaking at the time, they were left alone before and after the Crusades with a few exceptions.

But this is way too off-topic, not sure why I even commented on it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 novembre 2010 - 12:53 .

[Xilizhra]

So, attacking the human population directly, at least openly, is a non-starter. This is good to know. Of course, it's now making me think that if anyone should be whacked by a theoretical blood magic-based plague, it's the qunari... and aid in that direction would quite likely leave Tevinter appreciative.



So it seems we need another plan. Armed revolt for the elves is a mistake, it seems, at least in the current political climate... perhaps if existing powers were destabilized in other manners, it would be different. All told, this is really making me want DA: 2 to come out...

[Dean_the_Young]

And if the Qunari implement sanitation, quarantine, and culling the infected populations? There's already magical plague that Thedas has experience with handling: the Blight. Which still hasn't killed everyone.



If you're betting on immortality to see it out, then rely on immortality and don't rush things in a dozen, or a hundred, years. There isn't a lot you can do near-term.



Armed revolt is going to be a mistake in the current climate, and for hundreds of years on out until social views change. The best, enduring way to give the Elves a homeland is by the consent of the human rulers of the land. Even then, though, it's not going to be a superpower by any means. It can't even stay elven in the long-run unless you close the borders to humans.

[Xilizhra]

Consent of human rulers is an acceptable route for now; it doesn't have to be a superpower, just an entrenched state that we can operate freely in.

[Dean_the_Young]

It's safety is going to be dependent on not being the aider or originator of things that harm other nations. Using, aiding, or helping blood mages and maleficars isn't a smart move, should it ever get out. And it's very, very hard to keep a permanent secret of such scale and involvement.

[Patchwork]

If your PC has the right personality you might just get away with bringing the Chantry down from the inside by declaring yourself the child of Andraste and the Maker.



A slower approach that's bound to end with a holy march on one or both sides but if you play it right your people will end up in power and be in a position to give land to the Dalish and loosen the restrictions on the mages

[Giggles_Manically]

Another thing to consider:

Many city elves follow the chantry, so if you oppose that many of them will simply not follow you.

[Wulfram]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Another thing to consider:
Many city elves follow the chantry, so if you oppose that many of them will simply not follow you.

I don't know if the City Elves would be that loyal to the chantry.  Andrasteanism in general, yes, but the Chantry is a very human institution, and doesn't seem to have that much actual contact with the alienage - only one priest in Denerim would go to there.

[Dean_the_Young]

And that means they want to help tear it down... how? The Chantry and Andraste may not be literal synonyms, but politically, by identity, they pretty much are. Andrastian elves are Chantry-following elves, for lack of alternatives.



2nd rate status doesn't entail disloyalty either. If one thing about history has shown time and time again, second-class minorities in general prefer to keep their heads down, not up where it can be taken off, and can often be loyal patriots if only given the chance. Don't count on a popular uprising simply because elves live by a different standard. The city elves who think like that run to the Dalish, and even the Dalish are divided in regards to retaliation.

[Giggles_Manically]

People are not all similar in any group.



Some mages wont help, some apostates will stay hidden.

Some elves wont side with you, and may fight you.



The werewolves could splinter and attack you at any moment.

Branka is not the most stable person, so the golems mights stop coming.



A million things can happen that could easily derail this plan.



Like the Qunari invading and wiping out your country when you are located elsewhere.

[Wulfram]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And that means they want to help tear it down... how? The Chantry and Andraste may not be literal synonyms, but politically, by identity, they pretty much are. Andrastian elves are Chantry-following elves, for lack of alternatives.

If you want the City Elves support, offering an alternative is a high priority.  Starting up an Elven chantry would be the obvious thing to do - though if the OP is looking at an alliance with Tevinter, then getting the Imperial Chantry to take a more pro-elven line would be a great, if quite possibly impossible, thing to achieve.

2nd rate status doesn't entail disloyalty either. If one thing about history has shown time and time again, second-class minorities in general prefer to keep their heads down, not up where it can be taken off, and can often be loyal patriots if only given the chance. Don't count on a popular uprising simply because elves live by a different standard. The city elves who think like that run to the Dalish, and even the Dalish are divided in regards to retaliation.

It's fairly clear there is fairly frequent unrest in the alienage.  Though this is likely prompted by mundane concerns - such as the riots over a food shortage in Anora's epilogue.

[Dean_the_Young]

Wulfram wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And that means they want to help tear it down... how? The Chantry and Andraste may not be literal synonyms, but politically, by identity, they pretty much are. Andrastian elves are Chantry-following elves, for lack of alternatives.

If you want the City Elves support, offering an alternative is a high priority.  Starting up an Elven chantry would be the obvious thing to do - though if the OP is looking at an alliance with Tevinter, then getting the Imperial Chantry to take a more pro-elven line would be a great, if quite possibly impossible, thing to achieve.

An elven Chantry would be a heretical split immediately inviting a Divine March, which is generally understood as about the second or third worst thing that could threaten the young elven nation. (The first two being a Qunari invasion or a Blight starting underneath.)

Nor is it clear what an 'elven' Chantry would provide so differently: the Chantry already allowsand services elves who believe. There are limits on what the elves get, but that's more a function and continuation with their civil placement, not Chantry institutuional racism. It's not like City Elves are hard placed to get religion in general.

2nd rate status doesn't entail disloyalty either. If one thing about history has shown time and time again, second-class minorities in general prefer to keep their heads down, not up where it can be taken off, and can often be loyal patriots if only given the chance. Don't count on a popular uprising simply because elves live by a different standard. The city elves who think like that run to the Dalish, and even the Dalish are divided in regards to retaliation.

It's fairly clear there is fairly frequent unrest in the alienage.  Though this is likely prompted by mundane concerns - such as the riots over a food shortage in Anora's epilogue.

So what?

Besides 'frequent' being relative and subjective in this case, riots are not and never have been the same as treason brimming over the edges. They never have been. Poor people will riot, but then rally behind the nation when it's attacked. The US suffered race riots across the Civil Rights movement and in other times,but that never marked blacks as a fifth column.


If mundane concerns are supposed to be the rallying cry for rebellion, then the nations can quell them by meeting those mundane concerns.

It's very hard to maintain rebellion when even temporary concessions meet the common demands.

[Xilizhra]

It's true; an Exalted March on the elven nation itself would be a very bad thing, and the whole situation with the Chantry is quite complicated. I will say that the Dales are optional, at least at first; a theoretical elven nation could begin as a vassal state of Ferelden before declaring independence later.

[Dean_the_Young]

So what's left? Getting mages out of the thumb of the Chantry?



That one's much easier, though possibly not what you want. The key is the distinction between the Templars (the ones able, willing, and capable of watching the mages), and the Chantry (the ones holding the Templars in check).



The key is to break the Lyrium monopoly the Chantry has. That's the long and short of it. Don't start troublesome Circles of apostates yet. Don't 'stick it to the man'. Just undermine the basis of their economics.



Ultimately, you want a schism between Templars and Chantry. Providing alternative means of Lyrium is the key. This may be better placed for happening in DA2 than DAO, but if you can break the Templars, as an insitutuion, away from the Chantry, you can separate the Chantry's very means of mage enforcement. (Or, at least, duplicate it.)



Break the Templars away. Maintain your own, nationalized, version of the Templars to watch the mages, replacing the Chantry-loyal Templars. You have to maintain standards the Chantry will be willing to live with, but over time can gradually introduce mage reforms.



Eventually, with a proven alternative system in place, the Chantry need to provide the service is lessened, other nations can follow, mages are freer, and presumably everything is nicer. (Or you are stopped by an abomination outbreak: those happen to.)

[Xilizhra]

What would be the effect of using what you've learned from Alistair about how templars are trained? Could this be at all useful?

[Dean_the_Young]

A small scale start, at least. It's not clear how much of overall Templar effectiveness comes from Lyrium: is it a control device alone, or an actual booster?



However, insuring the credibility of an alternative Templar force really does require genuine Templars being brought into it. Otherwise, the Chantry can go 'but they're not really good enough' and have more people willing to listen.