442 réponses à ce sujet

[Lyssistr]

Riona45 wrote...

I will say that if I'm playing a single-player CRPG, I definitely want the starring role.

StarRiona45 

[John Epler]

I think it's easier to do in a non-interactive medium. Certainly, watching someone else go through the trials and tribulations of being the bridesmaid rather than the bride can be quite entertaining. But as soon as you're asking them to not only watch the sidekick but also to play as the sidekick? It's a much tougher sell.



That's not to say I think the idea lacks merit, just that it's something that can be done more effectively in a non-interactive medium like film, television, etc.

[upsettingshorts]

I think it would have to be done in a way in which the sidekick was more of a "man behind the curtain" than a sort of chronicler like Watson or Antonio Banderas in the 13th Warrior.

In that we - the audience - know the truth, but the characters don't.  Thus sort of organically introducing some nice dramatic irony to the narrative.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 novembre 2010 - 11:25 .

[Riona45]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You can be the star without being the hero...

True enough.  Let me then amend my previous statement to "I want the role of the hero."  Being the "sidekick" might be interesting and important, but that doesn't mean that's the role I want to play in a single-player CRPG.*


*I keep emphasizing the format because there are situations in which insisting on being the "star" aren't appropriate, like a tabletop game with a whole group of players.

[crimzontearz]

Yes well Bioware COULD allow you to recruit all the old squadmates for the third chapter if they had the quads to let players REALLY deal with the. Consequences of their actions...

"Hey...you played ****** poorly in ME2? You chose to let people die or you planned for them to? Did you START the serie at the 3dchapter?...fine deal withe the consequences and therefore much less content because...you know...consequences is what the damn game is about"

[xXhayleyroxXx]

wait... we can customise a sidekick? I'll miss the warden, Alistair and the other companions but if we can customise a sidekick that would be so excellent. Has it been confirmed?

[upsettingshorts]

crimzontearz wrote...

Did you START the serie at the 3dchapter?

Well I think in that case it is then in Bioware's hands to determine precisely how many of Shepard's crew survive the mission.  The point that they would lack insight into the characters that ME2 veterans would have is a fair one though.  But hey, that's kind of expected when you jump into the third act of a trilogy.  Who is Luke Skywalker and why should I care? Etc.

[AtreiyaN7]

Yes, I probably should have been more precise and said that gamers (as far as I know) generally don't want to be second fiddle even if they're the ostensible "star." they want to be the hero/heroine who directly saves/changes the world, etc.

I'm afraid that I've never actually watched The Thirteenth Warrior because I recall most of the reviews being negative. While I DO watch absolutely horrid B movies at times, that's usually only because they're MST3K-worthy and I can make snarky comments about stupid things that the characters do. If it's just a bad Hollywood film, well, I just don't bother watching usually. .

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 02 novembre 2010 - 11:42 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

JohnEpler wrote...

I think it's easier to do in a non-interactive medium. Certainly, watching someone else go through the trials and tribulations of being the bridesmaid rather than the bride can be quite entertaining. But as soon as you're asking them to not only watch the sidekick but also to play as the sidekick? It's a much tougher sell.

Everyone is the star of his own story.  Look at Jayne on Firefly - he thinks he's the hero.  He's wrong, but his misconception drives his behaviour.

In-character decisions (the core of RPG gameplay) are made to advance the interests of the PC, regardless of whether the PC is teh hero of some greater story as it will be told later.  I don't see how gameplay is affected at all.

[soteria]

You can be the star without being the hero, Fortlowe's 13th Warrior citation is a good example of that. The story then becomes how the star influenced the hero and events behind the scenes. He isn't less heroic or interesting, he just isn't who the fictional world perceives as the hero of the story - despite his rather dramatic involvement in it.

To give another example, the protagonist of Mistborn is not really the hero. She does heroic things and saves the day on occasion, but for most of the first book she's primarily an observer. Well... I'd say more but I guess that would be spoilers.

Given the negative reaction to the Warden not being THE hero in DA2 as well, my guess is a "sidekick" type protagonist would be a tough sell. People were/are outraged enough already at the idea that some other character (who they will also control) will do things as epic as their Warden did. Now imagine if they had been told that we would be a character WATCHING someone else do those things. Neeeerdraaaaage....

I'd still like to see it done, though. I guess I'll have to place my hope in books.

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

I think it's easier to do in a non-interactive medium. Certainly, watching someone else go through the trials and tribulations of being the bridesmaid rather than the bride can be quite entertaining. But as soon as you're asking them to not only watch the sidekick but also to play as the sidekick? It's a much tougher sell.

Everyone is the star of his own story.  Look at Jayne on Firefly - he thinks he's the hero.  He's wrong, but his misconception drives his behaviour.

In-character decisions (the core of RPG gameplay) are made to advance the interests of the PC, regardless of whether the PC is teh hero of some greater story as it will be told later.  I don't see how gameplay is affected at all.

I couldn't agree more.
That they are MY decisions with MY character matters more to me than whether or not those decisions involve what to have for lunch or how to save the galaxy.

I keep looking for those games where the "big events" are happening around you but you are part of some smaller story inside said events.

I hate being "the one" all the time.  Really cheapens any specialness about being "the most important" when you are ALWAYS the most important.

To paraphrase Syndrome, "When every is the chosen one, no one will be."

[Riona45]

filaminstrel wrote...

There have been other games which involve working for a superior in a general sense, e.g. NWN with Aribeth, although I'm not sure how well any of the examples I can think of off-hand really fit the concept.

I think the key thing with NWN, though, is that the power dynamic doesn't remain that way.  By the end of the game, the PC is the Hero of Neverwinter (in-setting), not Aribeth.

[Riona45]

soteria wrote...
 People were/are outraged enough already at the idea that some other character (who they will also control) will do things as epic as their Warden did.

Not everyone.  I certainly wasn't.

[andar91]

Riona45 wrote...

soteria wrote...
 People were/are outraged enough already at the idea that some other character (who they will also control) will do things as epic as their Warden did.

Not everyone.  I certainly wasn't.

Dragon Age (and it's world) would be pretty lame if only one character was allowed to do great, epic things.  I'm counting on a long line of epicness that stretches across the globe for years to come (hopefully).

[Harid]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You can be the star without being the hero, Fortlowe's 13th Warrior citation is a good example of that. The story then becomes how the star influenced the hero and events behind the scenes. He isn't less heroic or interesting, he just isn't who the fictional world perceives as the hero of the story - despite his rather dramatic involvement in it.

As such, choices like hardening Alistair or not take on a greater level of importance.  The level of influence the protagonist has on the story does not change, only the practical form it takes.

Pretty much this, not playing a bridesmaid.

Generally the way bioware tends to craft tales is you are the hero and you worked hard to get there.   You generally don't need your companions for diplomacy, to smooth certain situations over, to write treaties, they just tend to be there.  But that isn't often the case.  More times than not, heroes are built by those who you surround yourself with.  What I am asking, ultimately is to play a story where your character isn't the Hero that is known in the fabled tales, but is the one that helped make that hero what he was.

Kinda like FFT without being manipulated by the 'hero', actually working together with the guy.

Modifié par Harid, 03 novembre 2010 - 03:17 .

[Riona45]

andar91 wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

soteria wrote...
 People were/are outraged enough already at the idea that some other character (who they will also control) will do things as epic as their Warden did.

Not everyone.  I certainly wasn't.

Dragon Age (and it's world) would be pretty lame if only one character was allowed to do great, epic things.  I'm counting on a long line of epicness that stretches across the globe for years to come (hopefully).

Indeed.  I mean, I loved my Baldur's Gate protagonist, but I wouldn't like it if that was the only Forgotten Realms character I ever got to play and do "great things" with.

[Brockololly]

the_one_54321 wrote...
Yeah I remember that exact post. It was after Ray uttered the ARPG phrase. And it was after a couple hours of angry responses. My guess is that was about as much as he was allowed to say short of getting angry with his boss or insisting that his boss was wrong, confused, or saying something that the folks working in the trenches don't agree with at all.
My personal suspicioun is that a great deal of anger was created by that statement, not just among the forum posters, but among the BioWare employees that had to deal with that statement.

Gamespot's "Hot Spot" Podcast from today. Interview with Dr. Ray Muzyka starts at about the 1 hour 22 minute 30 second mark. Nothing really new- they ask some good questions, but Ray is quite good at saying a whole lot without saying very much.

2 quotes related to what you posted up there though. First, at the 1 hour 32 minute mark:

(On a discussion of WRPGs vs. JRPGs)

There's certainly action games that have alot of RPG features. There's action RPG's that are more clearly, like, you know they're action games than RPGs.I think Dragon Age 2 would probably fit into that category. And there are games that are more clearly pure RPGs in the old school way, maybe some JRPGs are more that way

And then bluntly stating it at the 1 hour 46 minute mark:

You press a button something awesome happens. Its an action RPG. I mean, who would have imagined that?

Indeed, Dr. Ray, indeed. Who would have imagined that? <_<

Modifié par Brockololly, 03 novembre 2010 - 03:12 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Brockololly wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Yeah I remember that exact post. It was after Ray uttered the ARPG phrase. And it was after a couple hours of angry responses. My guess is that was about as much as he was allowed to say short of getting angry with his boss or insisting that his boss was wrong, confused, or saying something that the folks working in the trenches don't agree with at all.
My personal suspicioun is that a great deal of anger was created by that statement, not just among the forum posters, but among the BioWare employees that had to deal with that statement.

Gamespot's "Hot Spot" Podcast from today. Interview with Dr. Ray Muzyka starts at about the 1 hour 22 minute 30 second mark. Nothing really new- they ask some good questions, but Ray is quite good at saying a whole lot without saying very much.

2 quotes related to what you posted up there though. First, at the 1 hour 32 minute mark:

(On a discussion of WRPGs vs. JRPGs)

There's certainly action games that have alot of RPG features. There's action RPG's that are more clearly, like, you know they're action games than RPGs.I think Dragon Age 2 would probably fit into that category. And there are games that are more clearly pure RPGs in the old school way, maybe some JRPGs are more that way

And then bluntly stating it at the 1 hour 46 minute mark:

You press a button something awesome happens. Its an action RPG. I mean, who would have imagined that?

Indeed, Dr. Ray, indeed. Who would have imagined that? <_<

*grabs popcorn* Can't wait to see how this one is spun. Not like most of us didn't see it coming already.

[Brockololly]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
*grabs popcorn* Can't wait to see how this one is spun. Not like most of us didn't see it coming already.

I don't mean to post stuff like that in an inflammatory way, but come one man- when you made Origins and marketed it for about 95% of its development time as a return to BioWare's old school Baldur's Gate CRPG roots and then turn around with the sequel and start brandishing loaded terms like Action RPG.  Come on....

[upsettingshorts]

Well, from where I sit either:

1) Dr. Ray's definition of what an action RPG is is wildly different than mine.
2) Welcome to more marketing, "action RPG" sounds cooler.
3) The sky is indeed falling.

Beats me which one is true.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 novembre 2010 - 03:13 .

[slimgrin]

To be fair, Ray's comments seem disconnected from what we hear on the forums from Laidlaw. Laidlaw is the one making the game, so I listen to him.

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...

To be fair, Ray's comments seem disconnected from what we hear on the forums from Laidlaw. Laidlaw is the one making the game, so I listen to him.

That's why I'm leaning towards 1 or 2, but 3 will still be possible as long as features remain in the dark.

[Brockololly]

Well if you listen to the whole thing, Ray goes into his definition of an RPG, which is a frequent topic of discussion here.

I'd advise just listening to it yourself, as I don't intend to butcher what he said, but he mentioned, as he's said in the past, how he views GTA4 as having a lot of RPG elements. And he goes on to say that the direction in which Rockstar is headed towards,what with adding RPG elements to their games, is really the same destination that BioWare is headed, just coming from a different direction, with BioWare adding action elements to RPGs.

Make of that what you will.

Modifié par Brockololly, 03 novembre 2010 - 03:17 .