139 réponses à ce sujet

[deuce985]

I love DA's traditional RPG elements but three things that really bothered me about DA was itemization, inventory management and forced specs on your characters. It was a bad decision to have talents already spent for you when you got a new character. Especially since you couldn't respec. Isn't that going completely against what makes a RPG so great? it is about choice of playstyles. DA forced you to spec a character one way or have wasted talents spent. Admittedly, this is a minor problem on PC because I can just dled the respec mod. But I own the PC version and 360. You have no option on console to do so...

Secondly, inventory management sucked. Plain and simple. Why do you need to constantly buy backpacks? You add in the fact you need DLC(if you don't own PC version) to get a chest to store items and you have all kinds of problems. DA has too many items to just go sell off to a vendor. I like to store some items for later or better yet, respec my guy and try something new midway through. Meaning I need a completely new set of items. Prime example, Arcane Warriors. The bad thing is the Warden's Keep chest has a storage limit too, which is kinda lame. I can't tell you how many items I stored when I first played DA because I had no idea of their usage(thank god for DA wiki, I sold a lot of vendor trash). At least put a chest in DA2 where you have unlimited storage, particularly a party camp storage rather than me resorting to dling a mod for that...

Lastly and my biggest complaint with DA...itemization. The balance sucked, period. I really liked how DA has a lot of direct, named loot. Comparison, Diablo series has a bunch of loot with prefixes/suffixes with thousands of combinations. DA loot is more linear based with a lot more named, legendary loot that even has lore. I actually like this system and think it fits DA perfectly since it is more linear type game. Diablo's system wouldn't make sense, although it would offer more playstyles. It is too random to rely on though for a game that is story based. The vendor trash doesn't bother me because you desperately need money in DA(especially on Nightmare). The economy in this game is really good, you have to break the bank to buy a legendary item(as it should be). Most games you can buy practically anything. The problem is this game is HEAVILY steered to melee classes. Where the heck is all the caster loot? It seems like almost everything is steered to heavy/massive armor too. Even the early DLC it was all about sword/armor for melee classes. The later DLC and Awakening gave better options but it was still small compared to melee classes.

The cloth/light/medium armor selection in the game is abysmal. I think this has a lot to do with Archers getting a spec to use heavy and Arcane Warriors being allowed to use heavy/massive. So, more heavy/massive came out because more playstyles would be using it. Still seems unbalanced because the heavy/massive is mostly for Warriors. I don't recall many heavy armor(if any) with Archer specific upgrades on them. That is another thing they need more of in DA2, class specific gear, which  Awakening did a much better job at. Specifically, more specialization gear like Spellweaver(AW specific) or Templar only gear.

Oh yea, can we please stop getting placeholder graphics for armor? Almost everything looked the same in DA. All this epic armor and they all look the same. Cloth/Light armor were probably the biggest victims of this. I'd like to point out I don't want anything "streamlined" like what happened to the ME franchise, I like the traditional, hardcore elements. They just need a little more tweaking. What are your thoughts?

[bsbcaer]

I like what you refer to as "forced specs." To me, it makes no sense to have a character like Alistair (for example), who, through dialogue and the like, you find out received some Templar training. So, it makes sense that Alistair already had Templar as a specialization. It doesn't make any sense for characters living in the world, at least from my standpoint, to be introduced to the PC as a blank slate for you to specialize completely to your whim. If that was the case, why not simply start the player with four blank characters and completely take out companions?

[nightcobra]

well, there's a podcast concerning the inventory in DA2 this thursday

[deuce985]

bsbcaer wrote...

I like what you refer to as "forced specs." To me, it makes no sense to have a character like Alistair (for example), who, through dialogue and the like, you find out received some Templar training. So, it makes sense that Alistair already had Templar as a specialization. It doesn't make any sense for characters living in the world, at least from my standpoint, to be introduced to the PC as a blank slate for you to specialize completely to your whim. If that was the case, why not simply start the player with four blank characters and completely take out companions?

It makes sense from a lore/story standpoint but not to a player. You shouldn't be forced to play a character a certain style. Especially when you consider the fact anybody can die off in your party permanetely. I suffered major consequences on my first playthrough at the Sacred Ashes quest. I lost my only healer, while playing on Nightmare(PC version). Which wasn't a pleasant thing to happen. I actually had to get a respec mod to get Morrigan the Spirit Healer spec. The point is, as it it is with most RPGs, it is about choice on how you want to build your characters. Nothing should be forced on you, even if it doesn't make sense to the story, it is a fun factor problem. I can balance my party how I want and not how the game thinks it should be. It only makes sense that way...

Now, if Bioware left every character blank when you get them and then couldn't respec them, I'd be fine by that. You'd have to think hard at your choices on what to spec and be sure of it. But because they had them a certain way, you had to follow that path, otherwise you wasted precious points. Where is the fun in that? I don't know about you but I like to build my characters in RPGs how I WANT them.

[deuce985]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

well, there's a podcast concerning the inventory in DA2 this thursday

What exactly was said? Cliff notes?

[Maria Caliban]

"It was a bad decision to have talents already spent for you when you got a new character."

Disagree. Your PC is a person with a childhood, during which they learned certain important skills and don't get a ton of choice in the matter. The Mages of the Circle taught you arcane bolt and if you were too stupid or pig-headed to learn it then you got Tranquilized.

"Isn't that going completely against what makes a RPG so great?"

No, a smudge of realism doesn't go against what makes RPGs great. Notice that you also couldn't drop any attributes below 10 even though you might want to play someone with a strength of 20 but an intelligence of 2. Why? Because if you had an intelligence of 2, you'd have been killed off (dwarves), never been married (town elves), or stuck in a back closet somewhere and not given control of the castle (humans.)

"The problem is this game is HEAVILY steered to melee classes."

Storm of the Century laughs at your puny bit of steel as it slaughters twenty creatures at once.

[deuce985]

filaminstrel wrote...

I don't like using the word "fix," as if these things are certifiably broken, when it seems like most of them are simply things you personally disapprove of (which in some cases I agree).

DA has its flaws for sure but I think it is a great game. I'm simply making a conversation on what I think can make it a even better game. Probably closer to a masterpiece to me. A lot of things I don't want changed in DA2 that probably will be. Like for instance, I liked how you could find so many hidden side-quests in DA that added lore/codex entries...I hope they keep that.

[deuce985]

Maria Caliban wrote...


"It was a bad decision to have talents already spent for you when you got a new character."

Disagree. Your PC is a person with a childhood, during which they learned certain important skills and don't get a ton of choice in the matter. The Mages of the Circle taught you arcane bolt and if you were too stupid or pig-headed to learn it then you got Tranquilized.

"Isn't that going completely against what makes a RPG so great?"

No, a smudge of realism doesn't go against what makes RPGs great. Notice that you also couldn't drop any attributes below 10 even though you might want to play someone with a strength of 20 but an intelligence of 2. Why? Because if you had an intelligence of 2, you'd have been killed off (dwarves), never been married (town elves), or stuck in a back closet somewhere and not given control of the castle (humans.)

"The problem is this game is HEAVILY steered to melee classes."

Storm of the Century laughs at your puny bit of steel as it slaughters twenty creatures at once.

From a roleplaying standpoint it makes sense, yes. But I think a game needs that fine line of knowing when it is too real. You need the balance of realism and fun. Forced specs are not fun to me and I know I'm not alone.

Far as your last comment goes, I was referring to itemization. I still think it is very much steered to melee classes. But by no means is Mages underpowered in this game(probably overpowered). That doesn't change the fact we should see more itemization choices in the lower tier armor classes cloth/light/medium.

[bsbcaer]

deuce985 wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

I like what you refer to as "forced specs." To me, it makes no sense to have a character like Alistair (for example), who, through dialogue and the like, you find out received some Templar training. So, it makes sense that Alistair already had Templar as a specialization. It doesn't make any sense for characters living in the world, at least from my standpoint, to be introduced to the PC as a blank slate for you to specialize completely to your whim. If that was the case, why not simply start the player with four blank characters and completely take out companions?

It makes sense from a lore/story standpoint but not to a player. You shouldn't be forced to play a character a certain style. Especially when you consider the fact anybody can die off in your party permanetely. I suffered major consequences on my first playthrough at the Sacred Ashes quest. I lost my only healer, while playing on Nightmare(PC version). Which wasn't a pleasant thing to happen. I actually had to get a respec mod to get Morrigan the Spirit Healer spec. The point is, as it it is with most RPGs, it is about choice on how you want to build your characters. Nothing should be forced on you, even if it doesn't make sense to the story, it is a fun factor problem. I can balance my party how I want and not how the game thinks it should be. It only makes sense that way...

Now, if Bioware left every character blank when you get them and then couldn't respec them, I'd be fine by that. You'd have to think hard at your choices on what to spec and be sure of it. But because they had them a certain way, you had to follow that path, otherwise you wasted precious points. Where is the fun in that? I don't know about you but I like to build my characters in RPGs how I WANT them.

360 guy here, so I don't have a chance to respec anything.  Lets take Morrigan for example, she starts out with Shapeshifter (obviously).....hold on, I was going to say something, but then reread.  How did you lose your "only healer?"  If I remember correctly, any mage could get the heal spell if the player so chooses to give it to them.  And you gain a large enough number of spells throughout the game to give Morrigan healing as well as a ton of other spells (at least I did).  Back to Morrigan, no one is forcing you to play a character a particular style, sure you can choose not to upgrade in shapeshifting (I never did), but if you do, then you make the choice (again not forced on you) to essentially play with one specialization and have to make the choice carefully.  I personally never really felt any need to use the Arcane Warrior or Blood Mage specializations (I've tried them out on some gameplays, but never really liked them), so Morrigan more often than not got the Spirit Healer specialization from me.

[deuce985]

I lost my only healer in Wynne because Morrigan was my nuker with only one healing spell. Course, I was ignorant to DA's mechanics at the time and Wynne being taken from me was a huge surprise(a very cool one I might add). It was just difficult at the time to manage it because it took me by complete surprise. I was playing it on Nightmare and the earlier patches of Nightmare on PC were much harder. I couldn't reinforce myself with pots or money as I was blindly dumping it off on every recipe I saw, etc. Amazing what one session through a game will do for you as I can breeze through the game now lol.

Morrigan was already a Blood Mage/Shapeshifter spec at that time and all my points(except one point in Healing) was invested in her being a nuker. Since I was careless with my money, crafting ingredients and I was being stubborn to lower the difficulty, I had to respec her since Wynne was my only SH. She was basically a full support character.

Modifié par deuce985, 01 novembre 2010 - 06:39 .

[Somethingawful]

Disagree with initial post.

"love traditional RPG"  ≠  make it like Walmart.

Mods for everything mentioned above - allowing players to break their individual game how ever they want.

Modifié par Somethingawful, 01 novembre 2010 - 06:45 .

[deuce985]

Somethingawful wrote...

Disagree with initial post.

Mods for everything mentioned above - allowing players to break their individual game how ever they want.

Not everyone owns the PC version. Bioware shouldn't rely on the mod community to fix whatever flaws are in the game, that is a poor excuse. A very small percentage of people use mods anyway.

That was actually one reason I bought the game on PC was I knew it was the superior version without mods. They were just extra incentive to buy it on PC. Edge of Reality really borked the console version and you could tell Bioware didn't develop those. DA2 will be bought on PC first this time as I read Bioware is building a combat system for consoles and PC seperately. Very pleased they'd take the time to do so. No other dev does that anymore. I'm buying it knowing the mod community will likely fix whatever they think is a flaw in DA2.

I meant this post more for my console version of the game since you don't have the option of mods, as I don't always have easy access to my PC version of DA...

[Xallah]

bsbcaer wrote...

I like what you refer to as "forced specs." To me, it makes no sense to have a character like Alistair (for example), who, through dialogue and the like, you find out received some Templar training. So, it makes sense that Alistair already had Templar as a specialization. It doesn't make any sense for characters living in the world, at least from my standpoint, to be introduced to the PC as a blank slate for you to specialize completely to your whim. If that was the case, why not simply start the player with four blank characters and completely take out companions?

I agree with bsbcaer. It's logical, besides it helps less experienced players and during your first walkthroughs.

[bsbcaer]

deuce985 wrote...

Not everyone owns the PC version. Bioware shouldn't rely on the mod community to fix whatever flaws are in the game, that is a poor excuse. A very small percentage of people use mods anyway.

That was actually one reason I bought the game on PC was I knew it was the superior version without mods. They were just extra incentive to buy it on PC. Edge of Reality really borked the console version and you could tell Bioware didn't develop those. DA2 will be bought on PC first this time as I read Bioware is building a combat system for consoles and PC seperately. Very pleased they'd take the time to do so. No other dev does that anymore. I'm buying it knowing the mod community will likely fix whatever they think is a flaw in DA2.

I meant this post more for my console version of the game since you don't have the option of mods, as I don't always have easy access to my PC version of DA...

First, the funny part...I didn't realize that DA:O went through a confirmation process and had its nomination killed by Joe Biden and the late Edward Kennedy....

Once again, my question is...if it's integral to the story (eg. Morrigan, Leliana, Alistair, Oggie, even Zev), then what is the problem with characters starting with a specialization when we gain them as companions?  You seem to want to act as if the characters don't have any background or experience until the second they meet us...

[AlanC9]

deuce985 wrote...

I lost my only healer in Wynne because Morrigan was my nuker with only one healing spell. Course, I was ignorant to DA's mechanics at the time and Wynne being taken from me was a huge surprise(a very cool one I might add). It was just difficult at the time to manage it because it took me by complete surprise.

This surprised you? Seriously?

Morrigan was already a Blood Mage/Shapeshifter spec at that time and all my points(except one point in Healing) was invested in her being a nuker. Since I was careless with my money, crafting ingredients and I was being stubborn to lower the difficulty, I had to respec her since Wynne was my only SH. She was basically a full support character.

I'm not sure the higher-level healing spells are worth the points even if you don't have a bunch of potions. I never felt any particular need to have Wynne along; the party always did better with Morrigan nuking.

If you needed a SH to get through you still aren't very good at the game.

[AtreiyaN7]

If you want to respec, maybe you should stick to MMOs? I only believe in respecs when it comes to MMOs of various sorts (as a WoW-player). I don't believe that a respec is essential when it comes to a single-player RPG. There are supposed to be consequences for your actions in most single-player RPGs, and it's not the same as an MMO where you're allowed to fill multiple roles as needed or at your whim (if you want to cough up gold for, say, dual specs and/or respecs).

Even so, you are able to use tomes to a limited extent (vis a vis DA:A I believe) and obviously have other workarounds like the respec mod. Therefore, as far as DA:O goes, you already have enough options. As for how I feel about my companions specifically, what I DO expect in a single-player RPG is that all my NPC companions come with a history and their own lives/classes - which is why Oghren's a berserker, Alistair's a "templar," Wynne's a "healer," etc. In BW games, you generally get strong stories and unique characters who have a good deal of personality and backstories, etc. I wouldn't want a character who's a totally blank slate (from a story standpoint).

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:49 .

[AlanC9]

deuce985 wrote...

Somethingawful wrote...

Disagree with initial post.

Mods for everything mentioned above - allowing players to break their individual game how ever they want.

Not everyone owns the PC version. Bioware shouldn't rely on the mod community to fix whatever flaws are in the game, that is a poor excuse. A very small percentage of people use mods anyway.

Reading comprehension time. Somethingawful doesn't think that any of those things are flaws in the first place. Note that he said "break," not "fix."

[AlanC9]

Shoudl have stated what I think there. I'm completely on the side of having companions with skills and stats that match their backgrounds histories, and personalities, for essentially the reasons given by others already.

As for the other topics:

I'm kind of on the fence about inventory. It's such a non-rational system anyway that they might as well go unlimited. but the OP seems to say that unlimited inventory should be a crutch for player ignorance, and I'm pretty contemptuous of that kind of design.

Itemization:  Well, it's obvious that the OP doesn't know how to play mages, since he thinks they need more items to be competitive. And maybe not archers either, since he doesn't understand why you don't see many archers in heavy armor -- properly played they don't pull much aggro, so you save the stamina for talents. Some folks just leave Leliana in the chantry robes she starts in.

As for the rest of it, medium armors do strike me as generally  worthless, and heavy armors past midgame too. A little more archer-specific gear wouldn't be a bad thing either. And yeah, there was a bit more model reusing than I like.

[deuce985]

AlanC9 wrote...

Shoudl have stated what I think there. I'm completely on the side of having companions with skills and stats that match their backgrounds histories, and personalities, for essentially the reasons given by others already.

As for the other topics:

I'm kind of on the fence about inventory. It's such a non-rational system anyway that they might as well go unlimited. but the OP seems to say that unlimited inventory should be a crutch for player ignorance, and I'm pretty contemptuous of that kind of design.

Itemization:  Well, it's obvious that the OP doesn't know how to play mages, since he thinks they need more items to be competitive. And maybe not archers either, since he doesn't understand why you don't see many archers in heavy armor -- properly played they don't pull much aggro, so you save the stamina for talents. Some folks just leave Leliana in the chantry robes she starts in.

As for the rest of it, medium armors do strike me as generally  worthless, and heavy armors past midgame too. A little more archer-specific gear wouldn't be a bad thing either. And yeah, there was a bit more model reusing than I like.

Where in my post did I say Mages need more items to be competitive? Just because they're already powerful, doesn't mean they deserve a lack of itemization because Bioware decided to make Mages powerful.

You sure do assume a lot about me playing the game. So I automatically don't know how to play a class because their spec clearly says they can play that way? Or maybe people like to try different forms of playing based on several things, like party balance. Hence why they put a talent in to allow heavier armor on a archer? What does player skill have to do with a lack of itemization for certain play styles? If you're not going to support the talents you put in the game, why even put it there if you don't have enough items to back the play style up?

[bzombo]

AlanC9 wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

I lost my only healer in Wynne because Morrigan was my nuker with only one healing spell. Course, I was ignorant to DA's mechanics at the time and Wynne being taken from me was a huge surprise(a very cool one I might add). It was just difficult at the time to manage it because it took me by complete surprise.

This surprised you? Seriously?

Morrigan was already a Blood Mage/Shapeshifter spec at that time and all my points(except one point in Healing) was invested in her being a nuker. Since I was careless with my money, crafting ingredients and I was being stubborn to lower the difficulty, I had to respec her since Wynne was my only SH. She was basically a full support character.

I'm not sure the higher-level healing spells are worth the points even if you don't have a bunch of potions. I never felt any particular need to have Wynne along; the party always did better with Morrigan nuking.

If you needed a SH to get through you still aren't very good at the game.

hello mr superior!

[deuce985]

AlanC9 wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

I lost my only healer in Wynne because Morrigan was my nuker with only one healing spell. Course, I was ignorant to DA's mechanics at the time and Wynne being taken from me was a huge surprise(a very cool one I might add). It was just difficult at the time to manage it because it took me by complete surprise.

This surprised you? Seriously?

Morrigan was already a Blood Mage/Shapeshifter spec at that time and all my points(except one point in Healing) was invested in her being a nuker. Since I was careless with my money, crafting ingredients and I was being stubborn to lower the difficulty, I had to respec her since Wynne was my only SH. She was basically a full support character.

I'm not sure the higher-level healing spells are worth the points even if you don't have a bunch of potions. I never felt any particular need to have Wynne along; the party always did better with Morrigan nuking.

If you needed a SH to get through you still aren't very good at the game.

Yes...it surprised me she'd turn on me just like that. Unlike some people, I didn't want anything spoiled in DA. I went in a media blackout and went into the game basically only knowing the setting and Bioware made it. That is all I needed to know.

I beg to differ on the later SH talents. Revival itself is almost a essential ability to have in the game...in fact, all four of the talents are incredibly useful if you use them right. At the time of that happening to me, it was my first time through the game and I had it on Nightmare. I didn't fully understand all the mechanics of the game yet. Like Heavy armor drawing more aggro.

[JosieJ]

Part of the reason I've never bothered with a respec mod is that I like the challenge of working with companions' specializations, talents and skills as they are given to me.  The only thing that bothered me was Sten only having 1 specialization, although it did make sense to me (I just didn't like it).

I would like to see more variety in armors and clothing, especially light armors and mage-specific clothing.  I'd especially like to see mages get headgear that didn't make them look totally lame!

[Maverick827]

I agree entirely about the itemization. I think gear choice is just as important as talent and attribute choice: more variables are always better in my opinion.

I would like to see not only more diverse gear (e.g. there isn't one belt that is clearly the best *cough*Andruil's Blessing*cough*) but also more rune slots for all pieces of gear, and more runes for that matter. The name stings like poison on these forums, but I really like the way WoW handles loot, though perhaps stats into the multiple hundreds is a bit overkill now.

[bzombo]

JosieJ wrote...

Part of the reason I've never bothered with a respec mod is that I like the challenge of working with companions' specializations, talents and skills as they are given to me.  The only thing that bothered me was Sten only having 1 specialization, although it did make sense to me (I just didn't like it).

I would like to see more variety in armors and clothing, especially light armors and mage-specific clothing.  I'd especially like to see mages get headgear that didn't make them look totally lame!

you mean you didn't like the dunce cap look mages had?