139 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

I just dont think min-maxing is nearly as necessary as this thread assumes. Even on Nightmare. It's a single player game, it's not like you have to come up with the master build in order to compete with other players.

[Harid]

Aermas wrote...

You can pick your friend & you can pick you abilities, but you can't pick you friends abilities. I don't  want to accuse you but I have a feeling you are forcing the followers to do things outside their niche & that is what is causing the "sucky" play

Pretty sure I have no problems with Dragon age play, because they let me use respec books in awakening, and I don't use anyone out of the characters you get in Lothering because you can guide their progress before they get ruined by Auto level up.

And I don't have the choice of scanning through 10,000 people to hire the best people for the job, we get what Bioware gives us, because this is a game.  If they suck, that means I ain't using them and I lose the chance to get to know the character.

Look at Jacob in Mass Effect 2.  Nothing you can do can make him not suck due to Bioware giving him bad weapon combinations and bad abilities.  Look at Jack, Bioware makes her out to be a Biotic god and Liara and Miranda are better than her at Biotics because she's a bloody Vanguard without charge.  If you could choose either you could actually enjoy using him in combat.  You have to give a little leeway when it comes to gameplay that affects you directly.

And I enjoy min-maxing. . .and I am not the only person out there, that's why they added respec books in Awakening in the first damn place.  If you don't like min-maxing, then hit Y our Triangle, or whatever the Auto Level up button is and move along your day.  But I should still have the choice.

Modifié par Harid, 02 novembre 2010 - 04:02 .

[Lukertin]

I just hope there isn't a repeat where items that are clearly intended for ranged characters have strength requirements, or items that are clearly intended for dps characters have modifiers like "increased threat".

[upsettingshorts]

Harid wrote...
And I enjoy min-maxing. . .and I am not the only person out there, that's why they added respec books in Awakening in the first damn place.  If you don't like min-maxing, then hit Y our Triangle, or whatever the Auto Level up button is and move along your day.  But I should still have the choice.

I didn't say it wasn't fun nor did I say I didn't like to do it.  I said it wasn't necessary.  You can still win the game with "gimped" characters.  I imagine most of us on our first playthroughs did precisely that.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 novembre 2010 - 05:26 .

[Aermas]

Lukertin wrote...

I just hope there isn't a repeat where items that are clearly intended for ranged characters have strength requirements, or items that are clearly intended for dps characters have modifiers like "increased threat".

Ever used a real longbow? An archer had to train every day of his life in order to strengthen his tendons to use one

[Harid]

Aermas wrote...

Lukertin wrote...

I just hope there isn't a repeat where items that are clearly intended for ranged characters have strength requirements, or items that are clearly intended for dps characters have modifiers like "increased threat".

Ever used a real longbow? An archer had to train every day of his life in order to strengthen his tendons to use one

Regular women can use Long bows(not saying women are inherantly weak, mind you, just using regular in reference to a non athletic woman).  Teenagers can use Long bows.  They require training (mostly not to hurt yourself), and a basal level of strength, but it's not like you have to be Ahnuld to use one.

Every day of their life, though?  Really?  Being a little superfluous there, no?

Modifié par Harid, 02 novembre 2010 - 06:06 .

[Lukertin]

Aermas wrote...

Lukertin wrote...

I just hope there isn't a repeat where items that are clearly intended for ranged characters have strength requirements, or items that are clearly intended for dps characters have modifiers like "increased threat".

Ever used a real longbow? An archer had to train every day of his life in order to strengthen his tendons to use one

1. This isn't real life.  If you want to go down that road, then every character who puts on heavy armor should walk at the speed of a cow, and be incapable of getting up once knocked down.
2. When the in-game mechanics, which the game tooltips themselves admit to be true, state that dexterity is the one statistic that matters for ranged weapons, explain to me why a ranged character should be forced to spend attribute points in strength, rather than dexterity, simply so s/he can equip the best items for a ranged character?
3. People don't normally associate strength with the ability to do 50 pull ups in a row.

Also Harid, longbows back in the day required something like 100+ pounds of draw strength.  I assure you that the majority of teenagers would not be capable of using a one.

Modifié par Lukertin, 02 novembre 2010 - 06:40 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Harid wrote...

Regular women can use Long bows(not saying women are inherantly weak, mind you, just using regular in reference to a non athletic woman).  Teenagers can use Long bows.  They require training (mostly not to hurt yourself), and a basal level of strength, but it's not like you have to be Ahnuld to use one.

A proper longbow has about an 80 lb. pull.  An ordinary person (say, me) cannot draw one.

[upsettingshorts]

I believe the distinction between short bows and long bows was to give the player a choice. If they wanted to use the latter, they had to raise their strength in order to qualify. If they didn't want to do that, there's short bows right there.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 novembre 2010 - 07:05 .

[Harid]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Harid wrote...

Regular women can use Long bows(not saying women are inherantly weak, mind you, just using regular in reference to a non athletic woman).  Teenagers can use Long bows.  They require training (mostly not to hurt yourself), and a basal level of strength, but it's not like you have to be Ahnuld to use one.

A proper longbow has about an 80 lb. pull.  An ordinary person (say, me) cannot draw one.

Most proper long bows had closer to 60-lb pulls. . .80 pound pulls were more of the extreme high end of that, and you should be able to do that (60 lb pulls) if you weigh over 120 pounds and had proper training for it.

Modifié par Harid, 02 novembre 2010 - 07:06 .

[Lukertin]

Actually, long bows used for warfare in Medieval England had 150 lb pulls.

[Lukertin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I believe the distinction between short bows and long bows was to give the player a choice. If they wanted to use the latter, they had to raise their strength in order to qualify. If they didn't want to do that, there's short bows right there.

I wasn't talking about bows, bows in DAO didn't have attribute requirements to the best of my knowledge.  (Crossbows did require strength).  I was referring to armor pieces.

[Jonp382]

Harid wrote...

Most proper long bows had closer to 60-lb pulls. . .80 pound pulls were more of the extreme high end of that, and you should be able to do that (60 lb pulls) if you weigh over 120 pounds and had proper training for it.

I believe 80 pounds is around the minimum for english longbows, and it could get a lot higher than that. I'd like to see a 120 pound man or woman repeatedly pull a bow like that, let alone shoot it with some semblance of precision.

[Harid]

Jonp382 wrote...

Harid wrote...

Most proper long bows had closer to 60-lb pulls. . .80 pound pulls were more of the extreme high end of that, and you should be able to do that (60 lb pulls) if you weigh over 120 pounds and had proper training for it.

I believe 80 pounds is around the minimum for english longbows, and it could get a lot higher than that. I'd like to see a 120 pound man or woman repeatedly pull a bow like that, let alone shoot it with some semblance of precision.

It only requires training.  Note that 120 lbs was used as a guideline for 60 lb pull bows, I have said nothing about 80 lb pull bows.  150 lb pull long bows weren't even generally aimed at people, they were aimed in the air in order to rain arrows on military forces, they did not require precision.

I swore bows had Dex requirements. . .how did this argument come forth anyway?

Modifié par Harid, 02 novembre 2010 - 08:22 .

[bbfan13]

We have gotten way off topic here but I'll add to it a bit. I used to shoot a bow quite a bit. When I was high school I shot an old 50lb recurve. That wasn't too bad. In college I bought a 65lb compound bow but it had a around a 60% let-off so it was easy. One time I tried to shoot a 70lb recurve and I can tell yo that it was hard. Drawing the bow isn't the problem (you don't do it the way it's shown in most movies). Holding it to line up the shot gets hard. You start to shake so need to find that gold circle pretty quick.

The old english longbows were much higher draw weights than that but you need to understand that they were not typically used for precision. You aren't shooting an apple off of someones head with a 150lb draw weight. Those were meant to shoot arrows out 250 yards and rain down on the enemy. Rows of archers would launch arrows so a little shaking wasn't all that important. I can't imagine what it would be like to draw one.

Edit: Beat me to it Harid

Modifié par bbfan13, 02 novembre 2010 - 08:45 .

[soteria]

Re: OP

One thing Awakening did right was the respec potions. I'd prefer they do that to give us "blank-slate" companions. I never felt like any of my PCs suffered from having a preselected talent or two. Warriors already get more talents than are worth spending... I'd prefer they were more like rogues, who have to make choices, but that's another subject.

[Sir JK]

Harid wrote...
It only requires training.  Note that 120 lbs was used as a guideline for 60 lb pull bows, I have said nothing about 80 lb pull bows.  150 lb pull long bows weren't even generally aimed at people, they were aimed in the air in order to rain arrows on military forces, they did not require precision.

Most modern replicas of Warbows are between 60-80 pound drawweight. The heaviest being about 120 pounds and requires a great deal of practise and muscle strength just to draw. There isn't a person alive that can draw a 150 pound warbow (the only real remaining warbows, the ones found of the wreck of the Mary Rose are all between 120 and 150 punds. All threehundred or someting) because the the tendons in the hand rip apart at 130-140 pounds.
Remains from professional warbow archers show that they had about 3-4 times as thick tendons in the wrist and elbow, developed as they were learning to shoot.... at age 5.

There is a few renaissance sources mentioning that a proper archer should be able to lift his own body weight over his head with his shooting arm (that is to say -one- arm)... minimum.

Warbows (longbows) don't just require training. You need to grow up with them.

You're completely correct about how warbows are used though. They weren't short range weapons. In fact... hilariously... the maximum range in DAO, is when the archers shot their last salvo and started to prepare for melee (or ran in behind the lines). The ranges they are used in most rpgs are all below the minimum safe range.

Naturally this isn't very applicable in DA2 so enough derailing from me

[Aermas]

Lukertin wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Lukertin wrote...

I just hope there isn't a repeat where items that are clearly intended for ranged characters have strength requirements, or items that are clearly intended for dps characters have modifiers like "increased threat".

Ever used a real longbow? An archer had to train every day of his life in order to strengthen his tendons to use one

1. This isn't real life.  If you want to go down that road, then every character who puts on heavy armor should walk at the speed of a cow, and be incapable of getting up once knocked down.
2. When the in-game mechanics, which the game tooltips themselves admit to be true, state that dexterity is the one statistic that matters for ranged weapons, explain to me why a ranged character should be forced to spend attribute points in strength, rather than dexterity, simply so s/he can equip the best items for a ranged character?
3. People don't normally associate strength with the ability to do 50 pull ups in a row.

Also Harid, longbows back in the day required something like 100+ pounds of draw strength.  I assure you that the majority of teenagers would not be capable of using a one.

Sir JK talked best about the bows, as for armor I can tell you it's a myth, field plate weighs less & feels like less that what modern soldiers carry. & they jog two miles with it. Granted it's an air born shuffle.

[Maverick827]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Harid wrote...
And I enjoy min-maxing. . .and I am not the only person out there, that's why they added respec books in Awakening in the first damn place.  If you don't like min-maxing, then hit Y our Triangle, or whatever the Auto Level up button is and move along your day.  But I should still have the choice.

I didn't say it wasn't fun nor did I say I didn't like to do it.  I said it wasn't necessary.  You can still win the game with "gimped" characters.  I imagine most of us on our first playthroughs did precisely that.  

I think the idea is that some (myself included) want min/maxing to matter, even if just on Nightmare or Super NIghtmare or whatever difficulty setting it takes so that those opposed to such an idea cannot object.  Subsequently, the gear spread needs to be made more complex to support proper min/maxing.  Items need to have more than two or three stats for this to happen.  I'm not saying items have to be this complicated, but when the best items in the game have only a few different stats with only a few points in each stat, there is no opportunity to min/max at all.

[TimelordDC]

Maverick827 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Harid wrote...
And I enjoy min-maxing. . .and I am not the only person out there, that's why they added respec books in Awakening in the first damn place.  If you don't like min-maxing, then hit Y our Triangle, or whatever the Auto Level up button is and move along your day.  But I should still have the choice.

I didn't say it wasn't fun nor did I say I didn't like to do it.  I said it wasn't necessary.  You can still win the game with "gimped" characters.  I imagine most of us on our first playthroughs did precisely that.  

I think the idea is that some (myself included) want min/maxing to matter, even if just on Nightmare or Super NIghtmare or whatever difficulty setting it takes so that those opposed to such an idea cannot object.  Subsequently, the gear spread needs to be made more complex to support proper min/maxing.  Items need to have more than two or three stats for this to happen.  I'm not saying items have to be this complicated, but when the best items in the game have only a few different stats with only a few points in each stat, there is no opportunity to min/max at all.

I too would love this. However, the direct complement to this is an increased level of AI and difficulty otherwise the items would appear horrendously overpowered, which would take some of the fun out of min/maxing. And by difficulty, I don't mean just health and damage boosts (since that's trivial to work around with the current potion cooldown approach)

[AlanC9]

Aermas wrote...
Sir JK talked best about the bows, as for armor I can tell you it's a myth, field plate weighs less & feels like less that what modern soldiers carry. & they jog two miles with it. Granted it's an air born shuffle.

I think John Keegan once wrote that what an infantryman carries has been essentially constant over the centuries.

But we should probably stop talking about realism, or we'll end by abolishing everything but plate armor.

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 novembre 2010 - 06:30 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

But we should probably stop talking about realism, or we'll end by abolishing everything but plate armor.

Again, that would depend on the period.

In the 8th century or so most armour was leather.

[AlanC9]

Maverick827 wrote...
 Subsequently, the gear spread needs to be made more complex to support proper min/maxing.  Items need to have more than two or three stats for this to happen.  I'm not saying items have to be this complicated, but when the best items in the game have only a few different stats with only a few points in each stat, there is no opportunity to min/max at all.

This is only true if min/maxing is based on the item loadout, like in AD&D. You could have a design where items are relatively generic but characters designs themselves are complex. Many modern PnP systems work this way; CRPGs are in some ways a museum of obsolete design principles.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Older PnP systems often has more generic items, as well. The variety wasn't in the characters or their equipment, but in how they were played.

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Again, that would depend on the period.

In the 8th century or so most armour was leather.

Yeah, but I think we've already established the DA period.