262 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterMonkeyBanana]

Could be that there are different arms of the chantry and thus there is power struggle, and the faction Cassandra represents isn't necessarily on the same side as the templars we see Hawke fighting in the trailer.

[Rattleface]

There is a Tevinter Chantry, a Ferelden Chantry... and so-on.



Each of which has their own grand clerics if I remember right, so they're not part of the same clergy. So yes.

[Harid]

Rattleface wrote...
Oghren was voice acted by Steven Blum you cur.  That makes him much cooler than "Anders".

And he did an awesome job as Gorim.  And a terrible one at Oghren, but it wasn't his fault, because Oghren was bad and Bioware should feel bad for making him.

Modifié par Harid, 03 novembre 2010 - 03:12 .

[andar91]

I think a better statement may be that apostate mages PRESENT IN THE STORIES OF THE MAIN STORYLINE are messed up. The Warden, and probably Hawke, are involved in freaky situations quite a bit. It stands to reason that the ones you come across are probably going to be a bit...off. After all, apostates who live a quiet life and aren't strange don't make very good characters.



Furthermore, I think the character writing tries its very best (usually successfully) to make character's complex and realistic. When you get right down to it, who in the games (and probably in real life) doesn't have at least a little bit of messed-up-ness? Add into that the ability to get possessed by demons or even just use magic, combine that with social oppression, mistrust, and hatred, and you've got a perfect recipe for messed-up-ness.



But it's fallacious to believe that all apostates are like this just because some are. Again, I think we've seen the interesting ones because we've been exposed to an interesting storyline. And I'd like to point out that Uldred was possibly the biggest screwed up one of them all and he wasn't an apostate, technically, he was a circle mage. He was just a maleficar. Morrigan even mentions this, that not all mages outside of the Circle use blood magic. She was pretty dark and she didn't, to my knowledge (except for the whole ritual thing).

[Rattleface]

Harid wrote...

Rattleface wrote...
Oghren was voice acted by Steven Blum you cur.  That makes him much cooler than "Anders".

And he did an awesome job as Gorim.  And a terrible one at Oghren, but it wasn't his fault, because Oghren was bad and Bioware should feel bad for making him.

Oh ****, I forgot how bad Oghren was in Awakenings.

[Harid]

andar91 wrote...

I think a better statement may be that apostate mages PRESENT IN THE STORIES OF THE MAIN STORYLINE are messed up. The Warden, and probably Hawke, are involved in freaky situations quite a bit. It stands to reason that the ones you come across are probably going to be a bit...off. After all, apostates who live a quiet life and aren't strange don't make very good characters.

Harid wrote...
Yeah, most apostate mages have a pretty bad track record, of the ones we have seen.

wut?

Also, the Dark Ritual was Blood Magic, and I suggest you bring Morrigan sometime when you are freeing the slaves in The Alienage and you get Caladrius' offer.  I wish you could throw her along side those elves and see if she has the same opinion.  She is not a good example of a good apostate and only helps to prove my point.

Modifié par Harid, 03 novembre 2010 - 03:22 .

[MisterMonkeyBanana]

Rattleface wrote...

There is a Tevinter Chantry, a Ferelden Chantry... and so-on.

Each of which has their own grand clerics if I remember right, so they're not part of the same clergy. So yes.

I didn't mean between the Chantry and the Imperial Chantry, I meant something along the line of different divisions of the chantry working to their own benefit - Cassandra is a Seeker or something, we seem to be fighting Templars, who hold a great deal of sway in Kirkwall... perhaps the clergy are terrified of a growing Templar influence in the greater order of the Chantry, so they're looking for Hawke to weaken the Templar's power. Could lead to Hawke influencing the Chantry's position on mages and other issues perhaps.

[andar91]

Harid wrote...

andar91 wrote...

I think a better statement may be that apostate mages PRESENT IN THE STORIES OF THE MAIN STORYLINE are messed up. The Warden, and probably Hawke, are involved in freaky situations quite a bit. It stands to reason that the ones you come across are probably going to be a bit...off. After all, apostates who live a quiet life and aren't strange don't make very good characters.

Harid wrote...
Yeah, most apostate mages have a pretty bad track record, of the ones we have seen.

wut?

Also, the Dark Ritual was Blood Magic, and I suggest you bring Morrigan sometime when you are freeing the slaves in The Alienage and you get Caladrius' offer.  I wish you could throw her along side those elves and see if she has the same opinion.  She is not a good example of a good apostate and only helps to prove my point.

I like how you cut out the part of my post where I specifically mention the Dark Ritual as an exception.
I never said most of the apostates we see don't have issues.  My point is that it isn't true of all apostates and that an apostate who just lives quietly in the village without ever revealing their powers, getting possessed, or using forbidden blood magic, etc... probably doesn't fit in very much in the middle of the storyline.

[Harid]

andar91 wrote...

Harid wrote...

andar91 wrote...

I think a better statement may be that apostate mages PRESENT IN THE STORIES OF THE MAIN STORYLINE are messed up. The Warden, and probably Hawke, are involved in freaky situations quite a bit. It stands to reason that the ones you come across are probably going to be a bit...off. After all, apostates who live a quiet life and aren't strange don't make very good characters.

Harid wrote...
Yeah, most apostate mages have a pretty bad track record, of the ones we have seen.

wut?

Also, the Dark Ritual was Blood Magic, and I suggest you bring Morrigan sometime when you are freeing the slaves in The Alienage and you get Caladrius' offer.  I wish you could throw her along side those elves and see if she has the same opinion.  She is not a good example of a good apostate and only helps to prove my point.

I like how you cut out the part of my post where I specifically mention the Dark Ritual as an exception.
I never said most of the apostates we see don't have issues.  My point is that it isn't true of all apostates and that an apostate who just lives quietly in the village without ever revealing their powers, getting possessed, or using forbidden blood magic, etc... probably doesn't fit in very much in the middle of the storyline.

Would have done a better job of making the Chantry look like the bad guys like so many people seem to want to think.

As it is now they are doing a neccessary service, protecting the common man from having some Blood Mage like the Baroness enter their village and grind them under his/her boot.

Coincidentally I like how you ignored that you agreed with me initially.  Nice touch.

Modifié par Harid, 03 novembre 2010 - 03:51 .

[andar91]

I will admit that, having looked at your post again, I didn't notice you had added that those apostates were just the ones we've seen so far, which is basically what I was saying too. I'm not trying to pick a fight-I was just trying to explain why I think the apostate characters we've seen have issues. "Every apostate is a borderline sociopath in the DA:O universe," (with four exceptions) is misleading however, as we've only seen several apostates that serve the plot and they aren't necessarily representative of the whole.



I don't hate the Chantry. Just like Wynne says, it serves a function. Yes, i think the mages should have a little more autonomy within the structure of the Circle so that they work with the templars as opposed to under them, but given the nature of mages in this universe, they definitely need to be watched in some way.

[Kroaks]

It kind of depends on the chantry really....the tevinter guys have slavery and blood magic

The Fereldian ones were the ones with exalted marches and who wiped out the elves



wiping out elves and going on EM's are bad things but they can be changed effectively without having a revolution.



Slavery and bloodmagic is usually a deeper part of the culture though....that Chantry might have to fall.



Or at least have a pretty intense civil war.

[Riona45]

andar91 wrote...

I think a better statement may be that apostate mages PRESENT IN THE STORIES OF THE MAIN STORYLINE are messed up. The Warden, and probably Hawke, are involved in freaky situations quite a bit. It stands to reason that the ones you come across are probably going to be a bit...off. After all, apostates who live a quiet life and aren't strange don't make very good characters.

And they don't usually attack the PC either.

Wait...I forgot.  The only characters who exist in the DA universe are the ones the PC comes into contact with in the game.  There are no locations or people beyond that.  Sorry everyone, won't make that mistake again.

Modifié par Riona45, 03 novembre 2010 - 04:44 .

[Riona45]

andar91 wrote...

I don't hate the Chantry.

And if you did, who cares?  It's just a fictional religion/organization.

[casedawgz]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Personally, I'd embrace an RPG that didn't have the goal of restoring the status quo. It'd be a nice change.

Play Alpha Protocol. When given the choice between two factions who have both screwed you over in the past, the player can choose neither side, bringing about the downfall of a gigantic multinational and a secretive government agency, utterly wrecking the status quo as you ride off into the sunset with your love interest.

[Daerog]

Kroaks wrote...

wiping out elves and going on EM's are bad things but they can be changed effectively without having a revolution.

Slavery and bloodmagic is usually a deeper part of the culture though....that Chantry might have to fall.

.

Exalted Marches are bad? War is bad in general, but EMs are very helpful/useful, especially when the Qunari invaded. The only ones that I can see to be unjustified were the ones called on Tevinter. The Dales one was self defense, and I put more blame on the human nations of Thedas than the Chantry with the mistreatment of elves.

Slavery and bloodmagic has more to do with the culture and background of Tevinter than with its Chantry. Edit: So I don't see how their Chantry falling will have any impact on that.

Anyway, on topic with how I will play: I won't make the Chantry an enemy if I can help it, but if some really bad dudes are about (like the templar lady trying to take Anders) then my mage (who I hope can join the Circle) will have no problem throwing some fireballs.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 03 novembre 2010 - 04:53 .

[Gabey5]

the chantry does more bad than good. Especially if your a mage, or like elves, it is because of the chantry that they are slaves and wanderers.

[Riona45]

In the end, what really matters is how the PC feels about them.  A PC is certainly "allowed" to be biased towards or against the Chantry (or anything else for that matter)--there's no rule saying you must always make the most rational choice possible.

[Bruddajakka]

The Chantry may or may not have it's good points. Unfortunately what we've been shown of it is that it is a very corrupt very oppressive religion. I mean seriously who the hell give them the right to tell Mages how they should or shouldn't live their lives. Same with the Dalish. They attack anyone who doesn't agree with their religion.

[Aermas]

An apostate no matter how kind & peaceful is walking around with a target on the back of his head, any mundane is going to ostracize him & burn him as a witch, & any demon is welcome to jump his meat because he hasn't been taught to defend himself from demonic possession. The only ones that will not kill him on site are the Templars that for everyones safety will take him to the Circle Tower. As for the Chantry enslaving elves, I don't think I have seen ONE enslaved elf inside a Chantry, only the nobles (state rulers) own slaves.

[Bruddajakka]

Aermas wrote...

An apostate no matter how kind & peaceful is walking around with a target on the back of his head, any mundane is going to ostracize him & burn him as a witch, & any demon is welcome to jump his meat because he hasn't been taught to defend himself from demonic possession. The only ones that will not kill him on site are the Templars that for everyones safety will take him to the Circle Tower. As for the Chantry enslaving elves, I don't think I have seen ONE enslaved elf inside a Chantry, only the nobles (state rulers) own slaves.

You are aware that even Mages who pass the Harrowing end up getting possessed all the time right? Hell even Wynne who's a bastion of Circle indoctrination is technically an Abomination. The Circle is a form of Slavery. On top of that it's a corrupt one the Templars use Blood Magic themselves, and are given lyrium by the Chantry so that they stay in line.

[Aermas]

Wynne was dying & allowed her guardian spirit to help her, not the same as a demon using you as a meat puppet. & Uldred is the EXCEPTION because he was a Maleficar & used blood magic, any other Circle Mage was tortured into becoming abominations.

[Bruddajakka]

Aermas wrote...

Wynne was dying & allowed her guardian spirit to help her, not the same as a demon using you as a meat puppet. & Uldred is the EXCEPTION because he was a Maleficar & used blood magic, any other Circle Mage was tortured into becoming abominations.

She's still a Mage possessed by a being from the Fade. Which going off the Chantry's definition makes her an Abomination. And we don't actually know if all the other Abominations in the tower were tortured into existance or not. Going off what Niall said the demons appeared before Uldred was possessed. It's very likely other Mages could have been possessed as well.

And regardless it doesn't change the fact that circle mages can be possessed regardless of whether or not they've gone through the harrowing.

[Riona45]

Aermas wrote...

An apostate no matter how kind & peaceful is walking around with a target on the back of his head, any mundane is going to ostracize him & burn him as a witch, & any demon is welcome to jump his meat because he hasn't been taught to defend himself from demonic possession.

Being an apostate mage doesn't mean you have no training.  Bethany and Mage!Hawke are apostate mages who were trained by their apostate father.  Also, David Gaider has stated that not all untrained mages wind up being possessed.  Yes, it happens, but we have it from the devs that it doesn't happen all the time.

[Aermas]

The Circle Tower fell because of Blood Mages. It wasn't Templars getting bored & hateful, & the Harrowing is a controlled environment to reduce the chance of possession & to make the mage resistant to future possession. Don't argue semantics about the true definition of an Abomanation with Wynne, that is petty & illogical.

[Dave of Canada]

I hope to god in DA2 they'll at the very least show the Chantry in a positive light. Most of what we've seen of the Chantry in DA:O was bad and rather one sided.