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[Lotion Soronarr]

Sakawatchi wrote...
Meant stronger than nature, just saw it myself   Fixed now though.

What has that suppsoed to mean?

Might makes right?
Mages should rule because they are stronger? (if they are strionger, why are they locked up in towers...numbers have a strength of their own)
Man should not limit mages in any way?

[upsettingshorts]

People who want to blow up the Chantry remind me of the Liberatores who killed Caesar.

Removing the tyrant, or supposedly tyrannical organization, would lead to an ushering in of an era of peace, harmony, and puppies.

Didn't work out that way for them, and I doubt it would work out that way for a post-Chantry Thedas. Power vacuums are dangerous business, and that's before even getting to the whole mage issue.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 novembre 2010 - 09:00 .

[Leonia]

Which Chantry is it everyone is trying to absolve, the Imperial or Andrastian? If both, how the heck does anyone hope to accomplish that, really? You can be opposed to the teachings of the Chantry or their methods of conversion without trying to dissolve them altogether. Maybe the next age can be the Reform Age.

[upsettingshorts]

I choose not to make value judgments based on ideology when it comes to the Chantry, because:

1) My character is not a theologian in the mold of Martin Luther.
2) Therefore, he/she views the Chantry as a political entity and treats it as such.

So... I'm not trying to absolve them of anything really. I don't view it as my role to absolve or condemn them. I'll deal with them and the Templars on a case-by-case basis. Unless, as previously stated, I'm roleplaying a character who doesn't think things through - or, as I failed to mention - has a particular reason to like or dislike the Chantry. Dragon Age 2 makes the latter very possible given Bethany and the character's father - but I certainly wouldn't be using meta-reasoning to guide my actions in that case.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 novembre 2010 - 09:04 .

[Dsentinel]

The chantry route always felt like the "Lawful Good" run through. Personally I prefer a more of a Chaotic Good run. So unless the chantry has changed up their tune, I'm not going to do much for spreading their chant (harhar). My Hawke is more of the less QQ more Pew Pew path.   

[Lurklen]

MisterMonkeyBanana wrote...

I didn't mean between the Chantry and the Imperial Chantry, I meant something along the line of different divisions of the chantry working to their own benefit - Cassandra is a Seeker or something, we seem to be fighting Templars, who hold a great deal of sway in Kirkwall... perhaps the clergy are terrified of a growing Templar influence in the greater order of the Chantry, so they're looking for Hawke to weaken the Templar's power. Could lead to Hawke influencing the Chantry's position on mages and other issues perhaps.

 I think this is an interesting idea, maybe the Templar order(in Kirkwall) has become too powerful. And now the Chantry is trying to regain control, or maybe ends up in an all out war. After all Kirkwall has one of the largest Circles of Magi, that would give the Kirkwall Templars a serious weapon if they somehow decided to run their own show. Maybe some kind of military state run by the Order.

 In our own history things like this happened, where a former branch of a group splintered off and became powerful in it's own right. Causing the orignal group to fear the splinter to the point of conflict. In fact if I'm not horribly mistaken(and if I am I'm sure someone here will tell me) that's what happened to the real Knights Templar. They became so rich and powerful the church saw them as a serious threat and moved against them, accusing them of worshipping the Devil and someone called Baphomet.

[Leonia]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I choose not to make value judgments based on ideology when it comes to the Chantry, because:

1) My character is not a theologian in the mold of Martin Luther.
2) Therefore, he/she views the Chantry as a political entity and treats it as such.

So... I'm not trying to absolve them of anything really. I don't view it as my role to absolve or condemn them. I'll deal with them and the Templars on a case-by-case basis. Unless, as previously stated, I'm roleplaying a character who doesn't think things through - or, as I failed to mention - has a particular reason to like or dislike the Chantry. Dragon Age 2 makes the latter very possible given Bethany and the character's father - but I certainly wouldn't be using meta-reasoning to guide my actions in that case.

Yep, same for my characters. It just amazes me how quick people are to claim they want to destroy the Chantry though, even my Dalish Warden isn't hellbent on uprooting the Andrastians. Maybe people just aren't thinking it all the way through or they are.. yeah, probably using meta-game knowledge (or worse, equating the Chantry to real-life religion and being opposed to real-life religions wanting to abolish the made-up religion in a video-game to vent out their real-life opposition towards organised religion).

I'm working on a fanfic currently for NaNoWriMo that will deal a lot with fighting against the Chantry but the reasons for the conflict and my Warden's justification for fighting is not as simple as "I hate the Chantry, die templars die!" It's more of a "I need to preserve the relevance of the Grey Wardens and protect the Dalish people from further oppression but I don't want to make you stop worshipping your Maker or force you to worship my gods" sort of thing.

[Aermas]

Lurklen wrote...

MisterMonkeyBanana wrote...

I didn't mean between the Chantry and the Imperial Chantry, I meant something along the line of different divisions of the chantry working to their own benefit - Cassandra is a Seeker or something, we seem to be fighting Templars, who hold a great deal of sway in Kirkwall... perhaps the clergy are terrified of a growing Templar influence in the greater order of the Chantry, so they're looking for Hawke to weaken the Templar's power. Could lead to Hawke influencing the Chantry's position on mages and other issues perhaps.

 I think this is an interesting idea, maybe the Templar order(in Kirkwall) has become too powerful. And now the Chantry is trying to regain control, or maybe ends up in an all out war. After all Kirkwall has one of the largest Circles of Magi, that would give the Kirkwall Templars a serious weapon if they somehow decided to run their own show. Maybe some kind of military state run by the Order.

 In our own history things like this happened, where a former branch of a group splintered off and became powerful in it's own right. Causing the orignal group to fear the splinter to the point of conflict. In fact if I'm not horribly mistaken(and if I am I'm sure someone here will tell me) that's what happened to the real Knights Templar. They became so rich and powerful the church saw them as a serious threat and moved against them, accusing them of worshipping the Devil and someone called Baphomet.

Baphomet was a code word for Sophia the Goddess of Wisdom & an Aeon in Gnostic Christianity. The Knights Templars were heretics but they were Gnostic, not devil worshipers.

[Stevie 402]

soundchaser721 wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

soundchaser721 wrote...

So the world is at the brink of war... Sounds like a perfect time for the warden to jump back in action, turn to Hawke and say: "Relax, I got this one". 

Isn't he slightly busy for the first two years go the game fighting the blight in Ferelden, then spending the remaining 8 years either dead, with Morrigan, ruling Ferelden, etc?

Well, the world is at the brink of war towards the end of DA2, which details Hawke's rise to power and becoming the champion of kirkwall. Now, before I get blasted with "My wardens dead!" it wouldn't be totally out of the question that the warden returns, for whatever reason, to resolve this destructive conflict-if hes alive that is. Morrigan is most likely going to be a huge player in this conflict, along with Flemeth. If the warden lives and chooses to go through the eluvian with Morrigan, I'd hope he would come back with her, unless of course, he is written off while in the mirror world which would be pretty lame.

Or worse Morrigans excuse for not having the male warden with her when she appears is that he is baby sitting the "God" child. Y' know a little quality time with the ol' warden daddy at the petting zoo in Dennerim or something.

[Lurklen]

Aermas wrote...
Baphomet was a code word for Sophia the Goddess of Wisdom & an Aeon in Gnostic Christianity. The Knights Templars were heretics but they were Gnostic, not devil worshipers.

 Yeah I'm not even sure they really were heretics, that's just something that was said about them. And that apparently they were tortured into confessing, apparently by the French king at the time. So none all or some of it might be true. Whatever the case with the real Knights Templar, we could be seeing a similar event in Thedas. Considering how powerful the Templar order is in Kirkwall. 

 And on the issue of hating the Chantry, it seems strange how many real people hate religion fictional or otherwise. I mean sure it's power has and is at times used badly, but that's like me saying every person from (pick your country) should be shot because I know that once slavery was common there, and there are still some (pick your nationality) who would prefer that was still the case, oh and they have some laws I strongly disagree with.

 In the game I might hate some Andrastians, but an organization as large as the Chantry has a lot of people in it, and the majority of them are probably just normal folk trying to get by. As well as the fact most characters are going to have been raised in the Chant so they wouldn't likely have all this preconcieved hate for it. If anything the average Thedosian would swing the other way. My mage character isn't fond of the Chantry though but he's a jerk and kind of biased. 

Modifié par Lurklen, 03 novembre 2010 - 05:13 .

[errant_knight]

Lurklen wrote...

Aermas wrote...
Baphomet was a code word for Sophia the Goddess of Wisdom & an Aeon in Gnostic Christianity. The Knights Templars were heretics but they were Gnostic, not devil worshipers.

 Yeah I'm not even sure they really were heretics, that's just something that was said about them. And that apparently they were tortured into confessing, apparently by the French king at the time. So none all or some of it might be true. Whatever the case with the real Knights Templar, we could be seeing a similar event in Thedas. Considering how powerful the Templar order is in Kirkwall. 

 And on the issue of hating the Chantry, it seems strange how many real people hate religion fictional or otherwise. I mean sure it's power has and is at times used badly, but that's like me saying every person from (pick your country) should be shot because I know that once slavery was common there, and there are still some (pick your nationality) who would prefer that was still the case, oh and they have some laws I strongly disagree with.

 In the game I might hate some Andrastians, but an organization as large as the Chantry has a lot of people in it, and the majority of them are probably just normal folk trying to get by. As well as the fact most characters are going to have been raised in the Chant so they wouldn't likely have all this preconcieved hate for it. If anything the average Thedosian would swing the other way. My mage character isn't fond of the Chantry though but he's a jerk and kind of biased. 

It also puts a very modern spin on things. In the middle ages, there was no notion of reformation or secularism. Virtually everyone in the areas equivalent to Thedas were Catholic, and that was just how things were. It would never have occured to them not to be, devout or not. They might have skipped a service now and then if they had to bring the crops in, but that's as far as it would go. People like Morrigan, raised outside the norm might see it differently, but those raised within society would likely all be Andrastian to various degrees, even apostates, although they would likely feel torn, perhaps tormented, even.

Modifié par errant_knight, 03 novembre 2010 - 05:24 .

[blothulfur]

Rise up you peasant masses.

No.

I wasn't expecting that.

[KennethAFTopp]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

...and apparently Hawke is the only one capable of helping the Chantry put it back together.

The question is: Will you?

Assuming you will fight the Chantry and her Templars for a significant part of the game, be that for control of Kirkwall or simply protecting your apostate little sister from them, would you be willing to help them?

Or won't you be willing to put your differences aside and simply plunge the entirety of Thedas into an all-consuming war?

I find this hard to believe of course I am from the Steven Erikson school of fantasy, there's no one person that can save the world.

[errant_knight]

KennethAFTopp wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

...and apparently Hawke is the only one capable of helping the Chantry put it back together.

The question is: Will you?

Assuming you will fight the Chantry and her Templars for a significant part of the game, be that for control of Kirkwall or simply protecting your apostate little sister from them, would you be willing to help them?

Or won't you be willing to put your differences aside and simply plunge the entirety of Thedas into an all-consuming war?

I find this hard to believe of course I am from the Steven Erikson school of fantasy, there's no one person that can save the world.

Agreed. Playing a god is dull, and makes the companion's involvement pointless. The whole 'most awesome dude EVER' marketing is fairly silly.

[KennethAFTopp]

Though Anomander Rake

[Aermas]

Read Terry Goodkind, he repeatedly shows the reader how super awesome Richard Rahl is & how woefully inadequate everyone else is.

[Morroian]

KennethAFTopp wrote...

I find this hard to believe of course I am from the Steven Erikson school of fantasy, there's no one person that can save the world.

What about Karsa Orlong

Good to see other Erikson fans here I think the Malazan series is my favourite fantasy series of all time.

[KennethAFTopp]

Morroian wrote...

KennethAFTopp wrote...

I find this hard to believe of course I am from the Steven Erikson school of fantasy, there's no one person that can save the world.

What about Karsa Orlong

Good to see other Erikson fans here I think the Malazan series is my favourite fantasy series of all time.

I did not like him at first, now... I like him more than I did before.

[MisterMonkeyBanana]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

People who want to blow up the Chantry remind me of the Liberatores who killed Caesar.

Removing the tyrant, or supposedly tyrannical organization, would lead to an ushering in of an era of peace, harmony, and puppies.

Didn't work out that way for them, and I doubt it would work out that way for a post-Chantry Thedas. Power vacuums are dangerous business, and that's before even getting to the whole mage issue.

It is a trend throughout history that removing despotic regime nearly always leads to the people accepting an even bigger tyranny than the one that came before.

[GeckoWacko]

Depends on the money.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Surely we should bring down the chantry for it has clearly brought nothing but evil into this world. Sheltering the poor, treating the sick, giving money to complete strangers for doing some other complete stranger's job, teaching people, the list simply keeps on going. Ugh, it makes you sick an organization like that could be in any posistion of control doesn't it? Pure evil i say!

[Schuback]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Surely we should bring down the chantry for it has clearly brought nothing but evil into this world. Sheltering the poor, treating the sick, giving money to complete strangers for doing some other complete stranger's job, teaching people, the list simply keeps on going. Ugh, it makes you sick an organization like that could be in any posistion of control doesn't it? Pure evil i say!

Hah. Business is business. but if it gets in my way...

[bioware_fan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Surely we should bring down the chantry for it has clearly brought nothing but evil into this world. Sheltering the poor, treating the sick, giving money to complete strangers for doing some other complete stranger's job, teaching people, the list simply keeps on going. Ugh, it makes you sick an organization like that could be in any posistion of control doesn't it? Pure evil i say!

You forgot about controling templars trough lirium .

[Giubba]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Surely we should bring down the chantry for it has clearly brought nothing but evil into this world. Sheltering the poor, treating the sick, giving money to complete strangers for doing some other complete stranger's job, teaching people, the list simply keeps on going. Ugh, it makes you sick an organization like that could be in any posistion of control doesn't it? Pure evil i say!

using religion as an excuse for mounting up wars against who doesn't share their creed or for more mundane (aka political) reason

Yeah really what an awensome bunch of fellow they are.

[MisterMonkeyBanana]

Giubba1985 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Surely we should bring down the chantry for it has clearly brought nothing but evil into this world. Sheltering the poor, treating the sick, giving money to complete strangers for doing some other complete stranger's job, teaching people, the list simply keeps on going. Ugh, it makes you sick an organization like that could be in any posistion of control doesn't it? Pure evil i say!

using religion as an excuse for mounting up wars against who doesn't share their creed or for more mundane (aka political) reason

Yeah really what an awensome bunch of fellow they are.

Or maybe Bioware wanted to make a believable organisation so made the Chantry have good aspects as well as bad ones. Rather than make everything either good or bad for the world.

But yeah, unless the developers turn the Chantry into stupid pantomime villains (in which case I would be disappointed), I don't think I'd like to completely wipe out the Chantry. Now certain elements/people within the Chantry on the other hand might meet a blade-staff related death. :innocent: