262 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Giubba1985 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Surely we should bring down the chantry for it has clearly brought nothing but evil into this world. Sheltering the poor, treating the sick, giving money to complete strangers for doing some other complete stranger's job, teaching people, the list simply keeps on going. Ugh, it makes you sick an organization like that could be in any posistion of control doesn't it? Pure evil i say!

using religion as an excuse for mounting up wars against who doesn't share their creed or for more mundane (aka political) reason

Yeah really what an awensome bunch of fellow they are.

So it's okay for a nation or other organization to claim political reasons for their wars? No matter what excuse is being used a war is usually inevitable in any of the situations in Thedas...

bioware_fan wrote...
You forgot about controling templars trough lirium .

And you forgot about the Nobles' control of the peasants. No system is perfect. At least the Chantry doesn't hide its face behind politics and smiles.

[bioware_fan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Giubba1985 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Surely we should bring down the chantry for it has clearly brought nothing but evil into this world. Sheltering the poor, treating the sick, giving money to complete strangers for doing some other complete stranger's job, teaching people, the list simply keeps on going. Ugh, it makes you sick an organization like that could be in any posistion of control doesn't it? Pure evil i say!

using religion as an excuse for mounting up wars against who doesn't share their creed or for more mundane (aka political) reason

Yeah really what an awensome bunch of fellow they are.

So it's okay for a nation or other organization to claim political reasons for their wars? No matter what excuse is being used a war is usually inevitable in any of the situations in Thedas...

bioware_fan wrote...
You forgot about controling templars trough lirium .

And you forgot about the Nobles' control of the peasants. No system is perfect. At least the Chantry doesn't hide its face behind politics and smiles.

But the nobles do not control the peasants trough a drug that slowly draws them insane !
You are right tough , the Chantry doesn't hide its face behind politics and smiles , it hides behind "love" , "compassion " and the Maker .

Modifié par bioware_fan, 04 novembre 2010 - 08:39 .

[0x30A88]

I dissaprove in their treatment of mages, thus the path is laid out before me.

[Riona45]

errant_knight wrote...
It also puts a very modern spin on things. In the middle ages, there was no notion of reformation or secularism. Virtually everyone in the areas equivalent to Thedas were Catholic, and that was just how things were. It would never have occured to them not to be, devout or not. They might have skipped a service now and then if they had to bring the crops in, but that's as far as it would go. People like Morrigan, raised outside the norm might see it differently, but those raised within society would likely all be Andrastian to various degrees, even apostates, although they would likely feel torn, perhaps tormented, even.

I don't agree--there is after all plenty of dialogue in the game that accomodates skepticism.  It might make one an oddball but the writers obviously didn't consider it impossible.

[upsettingshorts]

Gisle Aune wrote...

I dissaprove in their treatment of mages

Ah another episode in "As The Ideologues Turn."   I'd like to read an anti-Chantry opinion that takes into account that they are a continent-spanning organization that has far more influence on society than simply their attitude towards a very small percentage of the population, a minority the majority is abjectly terrified of.

[Lurklen]

bioware_fan wrote...
But the nobles do not control the peasants trough a drug that slowly draws them insane !
You are right tough , the Chantry doesn't hide its face behind politics and smiles , it hides behind "love" , "compassion " and the Maker .

 It would be easier to hate them if they were just hiding behind those things. What makes people with conviction scary is that they really do believe the things they are doing are being done for the right reasons. When the Chantry keeps the mages in the circle they see it as compassion, they are protecting the world and the mages from their curse. When the Chantry spreads the Chant they are following the Maker's will. When the Chantry fight against the qunari or those they see as evil they are doing it out of love for their brothers and sisters in the Chant. And when they give the Templars lyrium they are doing what has to be done in the name of the greater good, as are each of the Templars that take it. 

 Now that's not to say there aren't evil people among them, who are doing things solely for their own ends. Nor does it mean that the actions the Chantry take are the right ones. But what's scary about conviction is what it lets you get away with, there's no limit to what good people wil do if they're sure they're doing what's right.

Modifié par Lurklen, 04 novembre 2010 - 10:14 .

[bioware_fan]

Lurklen wrote...

bioware_fan wrote...
But the nobles do not control the peasants trough a drug that slowly draws them insane !
You are right tough , the Chantry doesn't hide its face behind politics and smiles , it hides behind "love" , "compassion " and the Maker .

 It would be easier to hate them if they were just hiding behind those things. What makes people with conviction scary is that they really do believe the things they are doing are being done for the right reasons. When the Chantry keeps the mages in the circle they see it as compassion, they are protecting the world and the mages from their curse. When the Chantry spreads the Chant they are following the Maker's will. When the Chantry fight against the qunari or those they see as evil they are doing it out of love for their brothers and sisters in the Chant. And when they give the Templars lyrium they are doing what has to be done in the name of the greater good, as are each of the Templars that take it. 

 Now that's not to say there aren't evil people among them, who are doing things solely for their own ends. Nor does it mean that the actions the Chantry take are the right ones. But what's scary about conviction is what it lets you get away with, there's no limit to what good people wil do if they're sure they're doing what's right.

I think that mages should watch over other mages and not be locked in an isolated tower .

[Aermas]

Don't you realize that the Tower protects mages from the ignorant masses?

[Heretical Sound]

bioware_fan wrote...


I think that mages should watch over other mages and not be locked in an isolated tower .

Have you considered that a policing body needs to be impartial in order to be effective? Granted the Templars are hardly impartial however they are well supplied and funded. Which leads to the second problem: how are your mages going to be funded? Maintaing "garrisons" in each tower won't be easy on the coffers.

A further logistical problem is are there enough viable mages to form an effective organisation? Mages are not the most numerous group in Thedas, and appropriate candidates even less so.

Finally if the mages are not in a tower, how are they effectively going to be policed? If they are scattered across numerous hamlets and towns then they cannot be monitored. If an abomination outbreak occurs then casualties will likely be high before the thing is slain.

Just food for thought

Modifié par Heretical Sound, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:01 .

[upsettingshorts]

Heretical Sound wrote...
Just food for thought

All good points and just the kind of thoughtfulness I was looking for on the whole "blow up the Chantry" thing.  It does leave out the rather obvious, if abstract, question that mages policing themselves leads to:

Who watches the watchers?

[bioware_fan]

Aermas wrote...

Don't you realize that the Tower protects mages from the ignorant masses?

But mages could live in mountain settlements or islands like the isolationists want , not in towers . Just imagin spending most of your  life in a small tower .

Modifié par bioware_fan, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:05 .

[Aermas]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Heretical Sound wrote...
Just food for thought

All good points and just the kind of thoughtfulness I was looking for on the whole "blow up the Chantry" thing.  It does leave out the rather obvious, if abstract, question that mages policing themselves leads to:

Who watches the watchers?

Their mothers!

Modifié par Aermas, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:28 .

[Aermas]

bioware_fan wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Don't you realize that the Tower protects mages from the ignorant masses?

But mages could live in mountain settlements or islands like the isolationists want , not in towers . Just imagin spending most of your  life in a small tower .

I didn't mean the physical tower I meant the whole organisation & it's partnership with the Chantry

[Morroian]

Heretical Sound wrote...

Have you considered that a policing body needs to be impartial in order to be effective?

Internal affairs cops are still cops.

[Lurklen]

Morroian wrote...

Heretical Sound wrote...

Have you considered that a policing body needs to be impartial in order to be effective?

Internal affairs cops are still cops.

 Good point.

[blothulfur]

I've always thought that compared to some of the lower classes in Thedas the mages are living in the lap of luxury and so long as they keep their noses clean are free to govern themselves, if you run through the casteless dwarf origin or even the noble one you'll see a much harsher world than that "endured" by the mages. Then again people always find something to moan about however good they've got it.

[Lurklen]

blothulfur wrote...

I've always thought that compared to some of the lower classes in Thedas the mages are living in the lap of luxury and so long as they keep their noses clean are free to govern themselves, if you run through the casteless dwarf origin or even the noble one you'll see a much harsher world than that "endured" by the mages. Then again people always find something to moan about however good they've got it.

 Well it's sort of the guilded cage thing right? I mean sure they get fed and educated and a roof, but so do guys in prison. The through line here is niether are allowed to leave when they want to. I'm sure there are lots of mages who are happy with this arrangment there's probably a few who'd like to just go for a walk when they want to.

[blothulfur]

Good point Lurklen but it leads me to wonder what their role is in Thedas, apart from the crafting of the tranquil what do mages do when they are sent out into the world work the weather for crops or ships, serve as hired muscle to ambitious lordlings or maybe healers for the chantry this should be expanded upon because the devil makes work for idle hands as the saying goes and thats the image I get of the towers bored mages seeking new experiences.

[Riona45]

blothulfur wrote...

I've always thought that compared to some of the lower classes in Thedas the mages are living in the lap of luxury and so long as they keep their noses clean are free to govern themselves, if you run through the casteless dwarf origin or even the noble one you'll see a much harsher world than that "endured" by the mages. Then again people always find something to moan about however good they've got it.

That same argument has been used to justify slavery ("They're kept pretty comfortable, what's the big deal?").  Or at least, that seems to be what you're implying here.

Modifié par Riona45, 05 novembre 2010 - 12:11 .

[Lurklen]

blothulfur wrote...

Good point Lurklen but it leads me to wonder what their role is in Thedas, apart from the crafting of the tranquil what do mages do when they are sent out into the world work the weather for crops or ships, serve as hired muscle to ambitious lordlings or maybe healers for the chantry this should be expanded upon because the devil makes work for idle hands as the saying goes and thats the image I get of the towers bored mages seeking new experiences.

 Really we don't know, I mean that part of the Lore hasn't really been expanded upon, maybe one of the writers will enlighten us, but at this point I don't think there is a lot of info on what mages overall role in society is. I do get the impression it differs between Circles though. And like you say having a bunch of people educated in how to use their power and then just locking them away is bound to stir up trouble. If they want mages to fit into society and not resent their place they have to have a role in it. The question is is that what the Chantry and by extension the people of Thedas want? I mean fear of the mage and magic itself is pretty universal, hell even some of the mages are scared of it.

[upsettingshorts]

Who says the concept of individual freedom is a value prized by Thedas? It certainly wasn't always the case in Western society. It took centuries of philosophical and socioeconomic thought to arrive at that consensus.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 novembre 2010 - 12:16 .

[Riona45]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Who says the concept of individual freedom is a value prized by Thedas? It certainly wasn't always the case in Western society. It took centuries of philosophical and socioeconomic thought to arrive at that consensus.

I thought we were giving our own opinions.

[Morroian]

Lurklen wrote...

 Really we don't know, I mean that part of the Lore hasn't really been expanded upon, maybe one of the writers will enlighten us, but at this point I don't think there is a lot of info on what mages overall role in society is. I do get the impression it differs between Circles though.

Yes the policies appear to differ between circles based on who the Head Templar or Nun is.

[blothulfur]

Yeah i'm endorsing slavery, come on thats a bit of a stretch what i'm saying is the towers might not be as onerous as some are making them out to be and indeed might be havens of a more progressive attitude and civilization than what we've seen of them might indicate. In fact i'd go so far as to say there might be mages who retire from life in service to the towers and see them as a refuge of sanity in a mad world.

[Riona45]

blothulfur wrote...

Yeah i'm endorsing slavery, come on thats a bit of a stretch...

I didn't say that.  I just didn't think your point was especially compelling.