28 réponses à ce sujet

[ganp0t]

SPOILERS FOR MASS EFFECT AND RESISTANCE SERIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT: This is a repost because the original thread was closed.  Apparently a thread partly about ME2's possible mistakes doesn't belong in the ME2 section.  Go figure. 

Anyway,I have seen multiple instances where developers will try to actually listen to fan feedback, and a lot of the time the changes they make seem to be for the worse.  Here are some examples from games I have played:

Mass Effect (Bioware) SPOILERS

SPOILERS!!!!!!   People complained about the elevators and mako.  So instead of improving them, Bioware removed them completely, and added in a boring mineral scanning minigame and long loading screens.  There were also complaints with the copy and pasted buildings on uncharted planets.  So Bioware cut out these areas in ME2, and replaced them with unique but very small areas.  The overheat system was critized, so Bioware put ammo in the game, despite having explicitly stated why ammo was obsolete in ME1.

Resistance (Insomniac) SPOILERS

SPOILERS!!!!!!   In R1, fans complained that the main character lacked characterization.  Insomniac killed him off in R2, much to everyone's dismay.  People hated that they could not play the campaign with a friend, despite R2 having a full fledged co-op mode (up to 8 players).  They have recently announced for R3 (release date is all 2011) that they are instituting a campaign which can be played with 2 players, but also announced they are not going to have the seperate co-op mode.  The purpose behind the complaints in the first place was to get both. 

I started this thread with three games as examples, but it seems I have forgotten the last one.  Oh well, this should be enough evidence to make my point.  I'm not saying these comanies should stop listening to feedback, because that is a very good thing which more companies should try to do.  I am saying that they should learn to better interpret the complaints, so that their future games can be more enjoyable for everyone.  Granted, people want different things, but a lot of the above changes were clearly not what the majority of people wanted. 

EDIT:

Whoa, whoa, whoa!!! Everybody stop right there! I didn't mean to imply that I hated ME2 (I think it is better than ME1 in some ways and worse in others). My question was more of a general philosophical one. It wasn't really aimed at Bioware specifically. I just find it odd that inmany sequels one area of the game will be given a lot of attention, while another area will seemingly be forgotten about (or made horribly worse in some cases).

Furthermore, Stanley Woo made a great point about how people want different things, and I agree that it is hard to know. But I do have at least a partial solution: make a series of widely publicized polls on the front of the website, and every week have people vote on what they want to see done in a particular area of the game. The results can be hidden to keep some surprises. The developers shouldn't have to listen to the fans, but the data will be there for them if they ever want it.

Modifié par ganp0t, 03 novembre 2010 - 04:38 .

[ganp0t]

I was using them more as examples that developers are horrible at listening to fan feedback.

[Stanley Woo]

Yup, because we can't keep listening to fan feedback. At some point, a developer has to decide just how he's going to change something, then work tirelessly with the project team over a couple of years to make that feature a reality.



And really, what you might want to change is something that the next guy over there wants to stay the same. And even if he wants it changed, maybe he wants it changed in a completely different way than you do. So... who do we listen to?

[Eurypterid]

There were long load times in ME2?



Personally, I think some changes made in (for example), ME2 were good and others I didn't like (I'm apparently one of the few who enjoyed driving the Mako). But that's going to be the way with anything. It's unreasonable to assume or even hope that there won't be changes from one game to the next. It's likely just as unreasonable to expect you'll like them all.



I agree with Strangely Brown that the devs are in a no-win situation.

[addiction21]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Yup, because we can't keep listening to fan feedback. At some point, a developer has to decide just how he's going to change something, then work tirelessly with the project team over a couple of years to make that feature a reality.

And really, what you might want to change is something that the next guy over there wants to stay the same. And even if he wants it changed, maybe he wants it changed in a completely different way than you do. So... who do we listen to?

Damned if you do damned if you dont.
You can please some of the people all of the time, all the people some of the time but not all the people all of the time.

Eurypterid wrote...

There were long load times in ME2?

Personally, I think some changes made in (for example), ME2 were good and others I didn't like (I'm apparently one of the few who enjoyed driving the Mako). But that's going to be the way with anything. It's unreasonable to assume or even hope that there won't be changes from one game to the next. It's likely just as unreasonable to expect you'll like them all.

I agree with Strangely Brown that the devs are in a no-win situation.

I do hit the odd long load time but its nothing major and it is not consistantly the same loads.

And dont worry I am there with you with the mako driving.

Modifié par addiction21, 03 novembre 2010 - 03:07 .

[slimgrin]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Yup, because we can't keep listening to fan feedback. At some point, a developer has to decide just how he's going to change something, then work tirelessly with the project team over a couple of years to make that feature a reality.

And really, what you might want to change is something that the next guy over there wants to stay the same. And even if he wants it changed, maybe he wants it changed in a completely different way than you do. So... who do we listen to?

Your inner child. Its always right.

[Loerwyn]

The way I see it, it's a combination of various things:
1. Publishers are less willing to innovate.
2. Developers are in a no-win situation in regards to changes they make.
3. Mistakes are made.
4. A Catch-22 situation is in effect.

Mass Effect 2, to me, was an improvement over ME1 in almost every way, but it still had drawbacks. The new weapon system was very light, as was the armour system. The squadmates are more interesting, but are less "involved" with the RPG mechanics. If they'd have kept the same system as ME1, then I think people would complain because there's too many weapons and too much armour, which was one of my issues with ME1 - And the inventory system didn't help.

See, what they could have done is changed the inventory system, tweaked the UI, still done the graphics improvements and left it. The removal of certain weapon types has caused issues within the game such as Shepard magically gaining an Assault Rifle in cutscenes and the SMG/Pistol using the same slot.

What happens is, IMHO, publishers are wary of putting out a similar sequel. If they do that then they're accused of milking a franchise or being lazy, but if they do change things then often the fanbase will turn around and attack the publisher for it - Look at DA2's reaction. Some people are happy with the changes, but others don't like them for a number of reasons. One thing that's cropped up in a few reviews of Fallout: New Vegas is that it's similar to Fallout 3 - Really? Wow! A sequel that's like its predecessor? We can't have that, can we? It's not like Fallout 2 was similar to Fallout 1, is it?

As for the innovation point, look at Mirror's Edge. Perhaps not unique in the grand scheme of things, but it was an oddball title that didn't do amazingly well for a major title. EA took a chance on it, and it didn't deliver as well as they'd hoped, but they're willing to do a sequel (Yay! Yay! Yaaaaaay!).

[Loerwyn]

Adriano87 wrote...

And they have ruined KOTOR III project - but we won't settle until It becomes produced

Who is "they"? A developer? No, it's LucasArts - They would be the publisher and they decided on TOR rather than KotOR3.

[deleted]

 People like us who go to forums instead of playing the game are frustrated misfits that love complaining I guess. 
Most players are probably quite happy about the game (and I am too!) but since they're happy they stay quiet. My brother used to say if you praise someone in secret they'll never hear about it, but if you slander them they'll know the next day as if by magic.

[Loerwyn]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

I don't get why people are all hating on Mass Effect 2. My only gripes are lack of story, continuity, removal of the crouching element, and different tone to the game.

I don't get it, either. I'd rather play #2 than #1, to be honest.

[ganp0t]

Whoa, whoa, whoa!!! Everybody stop right there! I didn't mean to imply that I hated ME2 (I think it is better than ME1 in some ways and worse in others). My question was more of a general philosophical one. It wasn't really aimed at Bioware specifically. I just find it odd that in many sequels one area of the game will be given a lot of attention, while another area will seemingly be forgotten about (or made horribly worse in some cases).



Furthermore, Stanley Woo made a great point about how people want different things, and I agree that it is hard to know. But I do have at least a partial solution: make a series of widely publicized polls on the front of the website, and every week have people vote on what they want to see done in a particular area of the game. The results can be hidden to keep some surprises. The developers shouldn't have to listen to the fans, but the data will be there for them if they ever want it.

[blothulfur]

Would that be a wide enough pool of opinion, i'm thinking the social network folks are small in number compared to the feedback they get from the ingame observation system.

[ganp0t]

blothulfur wrote...

Would that be a wide enough pool of opinion, i'm thinking the social network folks are small in number compared to the feedback they get from the ingame observation system.

True, but the ingame observation system doesn't let the devs know if people love or hate something in the game.  It just tells them what choices they make and how people play.

[ganp0t]

Strangely Brown wrote...

ganp0t wrote...

Whoa, whoa, whoa!!! Everybody stop right there! I didn't mean to imply that I hated ME2 (I think it is better than ME1 in some ways and worse in others). My question was more of a general philosophical one. It wasn't really aimed at Bioware specifically. I just find it odd that in many sequels one area of the game will be given a lot of attention, while another area will seemingly be forgotten about (or made horribly worse in some cases).

Furthermore, Stanley Woo made a great point about how people want different things, and I agree that it is hard to know. But I do have at least a partial solution: make a series of widely publicized polls on the front of the website, and every week have people vote on what they want to see done in a particular area of the game. The results can be hidden to keep some surprises. The developers shouldn't have to listen to the fans, but the data will be there for them if they ever want it.

I am not saying you hated Me2 either.  But the title of this topic implies that developers are failing at improving games
And what you seemed to be saying in your post is that you disliked a majority of the changes and that the developers are not listening to fans.

If you had a poll as you suggested, you are still in the same boat.  It's no different than devs listening to all the fan posts on these forums about things they would like to see changed.  At some point the devs have to make a decision about how to actually change what needs to be changed.  People will still get upset about those changes while others will like them.  It is still a no win situation. 

At the end of the day, I think most developers attempt to fix things based on feedback and don't always reach the mark.  But most game sequels are an improvement on the first ones.

Yes, I think I messed up when writing this post.  However I'm really not sure how I could word it to fix it, so I'll just leave it be.  About the poll though, the devs could use it to justify some changes.  For example, if they did a poll about whether Shepard should have all new companions in ME3 and the majority wanted new companions, then whenever fans got mad and started complaining about that Bioware could pull out the statistics that back them up.  In this way the fans could only reasonably blame the majority of the other fans.  After all, aren't game supposed to be made to please the majority of people who wish to play them (aka fans)?

EDIT: There, I changed the topic to sound a little more neutral.  I hope that helps.

Modifié par ganp0t, 03 novembre 2010 - 04:38 .

[blothulfur]

Good point, i'm against interfering with the designers creative vision somewhat though as there seem's to be a lot of restrictions already placed upon them by money, technical concerns, resources and time etcetera. That being said I loved using the mako on the flats and thought the elevators were a good idea so I guess i'm kind of with you there.

[ganp0t]

Strangely Brown wrote...

Okay.  I kind of see what you are going for now.  That being said, new squadmates and things of that nature should not be in the hands of the fans.  Although you might miss the old ones and what not, the writer's need to be able to tell the story they are telling.  If that involves different and new squadmates etc, then so be it.  Fans do not make the story.

As far as the poll, it might work as a tool for devs to say "Hey, Look at this and stop whining".  Would it really change anything in the long run though?  Doubtful.  People would still complain.

It might not actually change anything, but people love having the illusion of power.  I can almost garantee that if Bioware had polls (while keeping the results secret) and then completely disregarded the results, fan satisfaction would still rise.  People like being listened to.  After all, that is why many people join forums in the first place.

[TheMufflon]

ganp0t wrote...

Whoa, whoa, whoa!!! Everybody stop right there! I didn't mean to imply that I hated ME2 (I think it is better than ME1 in some ways and worse in others). My question was more of a general philosophical one. It wasn't really aimed at Bioware specifically. I just find it odd that inmany sequels one area of the game will be given a lot of attention, while another area will seemingly be forgotten about (or made horribly worse in some cases).

Then surely you could have found better examples?

[Stanley Woo]

Strangely Brown wrote...
If you had a poll as you suggested, you are still in the same boat.  It's no different than devs listening to all the fan posts on these forums about things they would like to see changed.  At some point the devs have to make a decision about how to actually change what needs to be changed.  People will still get upset about those changes while others will like them.  It is still a no win situation. 

Exactly, only in this case, we're wasting even more time by creating the polls and waiting to gather data, then analyzing that data only to find that some people like the proposed change, and some don't, which we knew anyway! A lot of folks who argue for this kind of process seem to forget that there is one "them" in this argument and a million who are not "them," each with their own opinion on the matter.

We like listening to fan feedback, we like it when people support or criticize our games and our process (within reason and always constructively, of course), but because it's our time, money, and people doing all the work, we are in the best position to make the difficult decisions whether some people like it or not.

[Nihlus Kryik]

i can agree with loading screens and ammo also with the later mentioned crouching, but i think ME1 and ME2 is one of the most perfect games i ever played! and it was ME that teached me that RP games ARE fun!