28 réponses à ce sujet

[wookieeassassin]

I KNOW THIS IS A SPOILERS THREAD BUT THERE ARE MINOR SPOILERS ABOUT NORMANDY UPGRADES, MAJOR SPOILERS ABOUT THE MASS EFFECT 1 ENDING, AND MODERATE SPOILERS ABOUT THE MISSION TO TALK TO THE COUNCIL (FOR THE FIRST TIME) IN MASS EFFECT 2.








Ok, so at the end of Mass Effect 1, if you are a paragon and you let the Council live they say that you saved many lives from Sovereign and the Reaper threat. Then Anderson (if you choose him to be the Councilor) says that, united, they will fight the Reapers and push them back into dark space.


Now I HAVE NOT BEATEN MASS EFFECT 2. I KNOW THIS IS A SPOILERS THREAD AND IM TAKING A RISK BY POSTING IN HERE BUT PLEASE DO NOT SAY ANYTHING THAT WILL SPOIL ANY PART OF THE GAME FOR ME IN YOUR RESPONSES.

ALL I HAVE DONE SO FAR IS TALK TO THE COUNCIL THE FIRST TIME AND PICKED UP MORDIN SOLUS AND GARRUS VAKARIAN.


Note: I did import my Paragon, Council survived save into ME2.
So, anyway, when you're talking to the Council, the Turian acts like the Reapers are a myth and talks down to you like you're a total idiot wacko and the Asari councilor says that there is no reason to believe that Sovereign wasn't an advanced geth ship.

Doesn't the end of Mass Effect 1 and this conversation with the council in ME2 directly contradict?

Also, you can ask Anderson about the wreckage and if they were able to study it and he says it was too scattered to really have analyzed it. However, in the codex it talks about what kind of weapon Soveriegn's main gun was and about how a secret Turian team was able to create the particle cannon (the Normandy weapon upgrade) from this knowlege. Don't these two things also directly contradict each other?

I know that some of the things in the game, like codex entries have "assumed" knowledge and then in a side mission or something you may find out the real truth or a more detailed version but the things I'm talking about in here just seem like absolute contradictions.

Is there something that I am missing (that I should have already heard in ME2)? If there is some knowledge I get later in ME2 that explains this better PLEASE DONT SPOIL IT. 


Thanks.

[Blze001]

It's not exactly an incongruity. They acknowledge that Sovereign was a super-advanced ship, but that's about it. Asking them to assume that the Geth, who are themselves far more advanced than the council races, developed a god-awfully powerful weapon during their 300 years behind the veil is easier than asking them to believe in a hyper-advanced race.



Likely, their support after ME1 waned as the days and months went on without a subsequent attack.

[dgcatanisiri]

Sure, they offer their support at the end of ME1... But then the Normandy is attacked and Shepard dies. Shepard has been the one voicing concern about the Reapers. With Shepard gone, they don't have that nagging voice in their ear, telling them that Saren was the dragon, not the big bad. So they decide that Shepard was misled by Saren, who has been painted with the most sinister brush the Council could find (granted, that's not that difficult, but...). Sort of a 'Hey, we fell for Saren's lies when he claimed he had nothing to do with Eden Prime, he was lying to Shepard about the "reapers," so let's just call it all geth and Saren's fault and get back to rebuilding.'

Because at that point, the Council doesn't want anyone upsetting the apple cart - the Citadel is still being patched up and they're still counting their dead. Rather than focusing on the next threat, the Council wants to sweep it under the rug and return to business as usual.

tl;dr, Never underestimate the sapient capacity to rationalize that which they don't want to accept.

[Iakus]

You're not missing anything. The Council in ME 1 was slow to alter their preconceptions, but was shown to alter their views when presented with evicence.



The Council of ME 2 has devolved into a bunch of idiots with no explanation.

[AntiChri5]

The turians developed the Thanix Cannon from the parts of Soveriegn they got to. The Keepers got some, the Alliance got some, Cerberus got some, the turians got some etc......

[FuturePasTimeCE]

AntiChri5 wrote...

The turians developed the Thanix Cannon from the parts of Soveriegn they got to. The Keepers got some, the Alliance got some, Cerberus got some, the turians got some etc......

wait, how did cerberus got pieces of sovereign when they're based in the terminus system?

[AntiChri5]

Who says they are based in the Terminus Systems?

We only know about the Lazarus Cell, and they are too mobile to be considered "based" anywhere.

Do we have any information on where the Lazarus station was?

[philiposophy]

Cerberus carry out some of their operations in the Terminus but are not necessarily based there. In ME1 we saw many of their bases out in the Traverse. As for them getting their hands on Sovereign parts, it probably wouldn't be that hard since about half the Alliance High Command are in TIM's pocket...

[tallon1982]

Since when do politicians stick to what they say? It's easier for the council to just deny things and pretend they didn't happen once Shepard was gone.

[wookieeassassin]

Unless something substantial convinced them otherwise,  it makes no sense for them to thank Shepard for fighting off the Reapers in ME1 and then say that the Reapers are mythical and that Sovereign was a Geth creation. Watch the paragon, council saved ending on youtube and they explicitly thank Shepard for stopping "the Reapers" from killing billions. Then, two years later they're somehow convinced that the Reapers aren't real and the Geth created the Sovereign Dreadnought? Unless there is something that I'm missing Bioware kind of screwed up. I'll be able to overlook it though since ME2 is awesome so far.  Start here at about 3:00  :  www.youtube.com/watch

The only way it would sort of make sense is for the Council to really believe the threat but not want anyone to know about it. That really doesn't make sense though because Shepard and Anderson know what they said at the end of ME1. Since Shepard and Anderson are the only ones talking to the Council they have no reason to flat out deny the Reapers and basically call Shepard delusional. Now if they said that there is no indication that there are any other Reapers coming or the threat will be dealt with when it comes up that would've made a whole lot more sense. To go from "gosh, you were right all along Shepard, thanks for saving our ass" to "Shepard, there's no such thing as the Reapers you idiot, it was just Geth" in two years can't be rationalized, short of the entire council having traumatic head injuries.

The research on Sovereign probably could be explained though, by saying the Turian group secretly pieced the main gun together and the Council nor any of the other races really knew about it.

I suppose its pretty hard to keep all the plot stuff contradiction free. I mean, how many facts/pieces of information were in the first game? What if they had people say things in the first one and they later realized that that would make the creation of the story difficult for the second one? The only way for ME2 to stay kind of how it is now story wise and not contradict the paragon, Council saved ending is for them to say that Sovereign was the only threat or something similar. Otherwise, if the Council remembered that Shepard was right in ME1 ME2 would consist of putting together a fleet to guard the Galaxy/taking the fight to the Reapers.

REMEMBER, THE ONLY THINGS IVE DONE IN ME2 ARE GET GARRUS AND MORDIN, AND TALK TO THE COUNCIL THE FIRST TIME. PLEASE DON'T SPOIL ANYTHING IN ME2 AND ITS DLC. THANKS.

Modifié par wookieeassassin, 03 novembre 2010 - 03:00 .

[Iakus]

wookieeassassin wrote...

The only way it would sort of make sense is for the Council to really believe the threat but not want anyone to know about it. That really doesn't make sense though because Shepard and Anderson know what they said at the end of ME1. Since Shepard and Anderson are the only ones talking to the Council they have no reason to flat out deny the Reapers and basically call Shepard delusional. Now if they said that there is no indication that there are any other Reapers coming or the threat will be dealt with when it comes up that would've made a whole lot more sense. To go from "gosh, you were right all along Shepard, thanks for saving our ass" to "Shepard, there's no such thing as the Reapers you idiot, it was just Geth" in two years can't be rationalized, short of the entire council having traumatic head injuries.

The research on Sovereign probably could be explained though, by saying the Turian group secretly pieced the main gun together and the Council nor any of the other races really knew about it.

I suppose its pretty hard to keep all the plot stuff contradiction free. I mean, how many facts/pieces of information were in the first game? What if they had people say things in the first one and they later realized that that would make the creation of the story difficult for the second one? The only way for ME2 to stay kind of how it is now story wise and not contradict the paragon, Council saved ending is for them to say that Sovereign was the only threat or something similar. Otherwise, if the Council remembered that Shepard was right in ME1 ME2 would consist of putting together a fleet to guard the Galaxy/taking the fight to the Reapers.

REMEMBER, THE ONLY THINGS IVE DONE IN ME2 ARE GET GARRUS AND MORDIN, AND TALK TO THE COUNCIL THE FIRST TIME. PLEASE DON'T SPOIL ANYTHING IN ME2 AND ITS DLC. THANKS.

Indeed, not wanting to talk to Shepard about the reaper threat is one thing I could have bought.  I mean, if they were to say something like:

"We can't trust you with our secrets 'cause you've been working with Cerberus" 

"Sovereign's dead and the Keepers neutralized, so the Reaper threat is gone for good"

"We have Top Men working on it right now" (kudos to anyone who gets that reference)

 Any of those would have been totally understandable, given the Council's prior actions.  But to flatly deny the existence of the Reapers to the face of the very person who spent most of ME 1 warning the Council about them to begin with?  That's mind boggling.

[wookieeassassin]

Like I said, I guess it's hard to make sure every single thing matches up with every single thing that was said/happens in the first game. I'd think they would be minor things, like codex contradictions though, not major things like the Council suddenly having amnesia regarding the fact that they acknowledged that Shepard saved them from certain Reaper destruction. I'm only going to try to overlook it because the game so far is excellent.



From what I've played so far in ME2 though, I'd say that Shepard should just beat the **** out of the non-human Council members for being so damn ungrateful. If anything, Shepard should have a limitless bank account and be able to do whatever he wants after saving their *** from Reaper genocide.

[Gibb_Shepard]

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrretcon



All they had to do was get the council to give a reason why they are not combatting the reapers at this point in time, but making them utterly contradict what they said at the end of ME1 was just ridiculous. The only way this part of the game can be fixed is if in ME3 the council say they were lieing to shepard about the reapers, and did not tell him the truth because he was working for Cerberus. I'd be happy with that.

[Tony Gunslinger]

I still haven't get paid from surviving Archangel's recruitment mission. That batarian recruiter took my 500 creds and closed shop. Bastard.

[wookieeassassin]

Yeah, its a rather big inconsistency.



Tony, I know you're joking because its quite obvious why you didn't get 500 credits from that...

[KingDan97]

You know why they changed their tune? Not the lore reason but the real reason. It's not a retcon, not really anyway, the explanation Bioware gave sufficed if you could see their real reason. Continuity. If half their players were working with TIM and half were wholeheartedly accepted by the council it would require an entirely different setup, entire characters would've been scrapped, and for what? Some small level of continuity that could be explained by them trying to avoid a riot? No, would never happen.


You want the lore reason though? Here it is. If they acknowledged the Reapers then they would be opening up the entire galaxy to fears that would shatter all semblance of safety within Council Space. If word got out for even a moment from the council that a fleet of sentient star ships as powerful as the one that nearly wiped out the entire Arcturas and Council Fleets combined were coming, you can damn well bet the galaxy would be in horrid disarray. Then the entire galaxy would be the Terminus systems. It would be a shock. Shock causes fear. Fear causes disarray. Disarray leads to anarchy and anarchy leads to them being even worse prepared for the Reapers then they would be otherwise. You think they're not preparing? You're wrong. That Turian cannon? You can bet the Council as a whole is working to find a way to integrate guns of that power into every single warship in their fleets inconspicuously. They're also watching you very closely, even if you aren't a spectre. They know about all the allies you've gained and all the people you've helped. They are making a battle plan, and you can damn well bet they'll give command of their armies to you in the end. Besides, we all know how easy it is to get a bug into secure locations *cough* Emily Wong *cough*

And if they don't believe you, well you can make them.

Modifié par KingDan97, 03 novembre 2010 - 04:23 .

[Iakus]

wookieeassassin wrote...

Like I said, I guess it's hard to make sure every single thing matches up with every single thing that was said/happens in the first game. I'd think they would be minor things, like codex contradictions though, not major things like the Council suddenly having amnesia regarding the fact that they acknowledged that Shepard saved them from certain Reaper destruction. I'm only going to try to overlook it because the game so far is excellent.

From what I've played so far in ME2 though, I'd say that Shepard should just beat the **** out of the non-human Council members for being so damn ungrateful. If anything, Shepard should have a limitless bank account and be able to do whatever he wants after saving their *** from Reaper genocide.

Yeah.  It's one thing to mix up a name, or the details of a sidequest, but the Council's response to your saving them from a giant sentient starship ushering in a new cycle of destruction?  With Shepard warning them about Reapers practically from the moment they meet?  That's one heck of a memory lapse.

But on the plus side, Shepard doesn't have to file reports.  That's a silver lining, right?

[Iakus]

KingDan97 wrote...

You want the lore reason though? Here it is. If they acknowledged the Reapers then they would be opening up the entire galaxy to fears that would shatter all semblance of safety within Council Space. If word got out for even a moment from the council that a fleet of sentient star ships as powerful as the one that nearly wiped out the entire Arcturas and Council Fleets combined were coming, you can damn well bet the galaxy would be in horrid disarray. Then the entire galaxy would be the Terminus systems. It would be a shock. Shock causes fear. Fear causes disarray. Disarray leads to anarchy and anarchy leads to them being even worse prepared for the Reapers then they would be otherwise. You think they're not preparing? You're wrong. That Turian cannon? You can bet the Council as a whole is working to find a way to integrate guns of that power into every single warship in their fleets inconspicuously. They're also watching you very closely, even if you aren't a spectre. They know about all the allies you've gained and all the people you've helped. They are making a battle plan, and you can damn well bet they'll give command of their armies to you in the end.

And if they don't believe you, well you can make them.

If only there was even a hint of that going on.  I could accept that.  I listed three possible responses they could have given Shepard that would have made far more sense.  "Ah, yes, 'Reapers'" as presented and with no explanation, just makes them sound foolish.

[That Confused 1]

iakus wrote...

You're not missing anything. The Council in ME 1 was slow to alter their preconceptions, but was shown to alter their views when presented with evicence.

The Council of ME 2 has devolved into a bunch of idiots with no explanation.

Human politicans for the win for Galatic Concil stalemating! 

[wookieeassassin]

KingDan, what is TIM? (If its a ME2 spoiler don't say anything more). Yeah I can kind of understand the discontinuity if Bioware wanted to edit the story a little and couldn't without a inconsistency because they had some characters say some things in the first game. Although, they did know they were doing a trilogy, so...

KingDan, your explanation doesn't explain why they would act like the Reapers don't exist when talking only to Shepard or Anderson. Yeah, the explanation is perfect for the general galaxy, only the people who are mounting an attack really need to know about the Reapers because if the general public knew it'd scare everyone into doing crazy stuff. Therefore, the Council would officially say it was the Geth. BUT, when talking to only Anderson and Shepard, they need to be saying about how it is being taken care of silently, as to not upset the general population. The council doesn't need to completely disregard the Reapers altogether to Shepard and Anderson. The general public, yeah, but not those two in private.

If it was a new council then I could see how it would make more sense. The old Council had finally realized the truth, but they died. The new Council never really saw any proof so they think it is just Geth. That would also make sense.
The old Council going from talking about the big threat to saying they aren't real is a mighty jump.

Modifié par wookieeassassin, 03 novembre 2010 - 04:57 .

[Terror_K]

The worst thing of all is that with just a little bit of better writing it would have been easy to make it not so much an issue in ME2. Instead of just denying the existence of Reapers in ME2 after acknowledging them fully at the end of ME1, they could have simply said they want to keep things on the low to avoid panicking the galactic community, that they need to focus on other issues until and unless there are clear signs of an invasion and that they don't want to alert The Reapers to the fact that they are known to them, else it result in an early second strike.

[Iakus]

wookieeassassin wrote...

KingDan, what is TIM? (If its a ME2 spoiler don't say anything more). Yeah I can kind of understand the discontinuity if Bioware wanted to edit the story a little and couldn't without a inconsistency because they had some characters say some things in the first game. Although, they did know they were doing a trilogy, so...

TIM is the name on the boards for The Illusive Man.  You've already met him so it's not a spoiler.  Just a shorthand way of identifying him.

Modifié par iakus, 03 novembre 2010 - 05:06 .

[Jason_53]

KingDan97 wrote...

You know why they changed their tune? Not the lore reason but the real reason. It's not a retcon, not really anyway, the explanation Bioware gave sufficed if you could see their real reason. Continuity. If half their players were working with TIM and half were wholeheartedly accepted by the council it would require an entirely different setup, entire characters would've been scrapped, and for what? Some small level of continuity that could be explained by them trying to avoid a riot? No, would never happen.


You want the lore reason though? Here it is. If they acknowledged the Reapers then they would be opening up the entire galaxy to fears that would shatter all semblance of safety within Council Space. If word got out for even a moment from the council that a fleet of sentient star ships as powerful as the one that nearly wiped out the entire Arcturas and Council Fleets combined were coming, you can damn well bet the galaxy would be in horrid disarray. Then the entire galaxy would be the Terminus systems. It would be a shock. Shock causes fear. Fear causes disarray. Disarray leads to anarchy and anarchy leads to them being even worse prepared for the Reapers then they would be otherwise. You think they're not preparing? You're wrong. That Turian cannon? You can bet the Council as a whole is working to find a way to integrate guns of that power into every single warship in their fleets inconspicuously. They're also watching you very closely, even if you aren't a spectre. They know about all the allies you've gained and all the people you've helped. They are making a battle plan, and you can damn well bet they'll give command of their armies to you in the end. Besides, we all know how easy it is to get a bug into secure locations *cough* Emily Wong *cough*

And if they don't believe you, well you can make them.

You`re absolutely right.
To what you´ve said I must add that during ME1 the Council constantly refused (specially the turian Counselor) to believe that Sovereign was a Reaper; he even accused Shepard of being manipulated by Saren: "He´s playing you Shepard" he said during the repport after Virmire.
The Council only acknowleged Sovereign at the very end of the game, and only once.
Of course they are politicians and they won´t cause a galactic panic by admiting that there´s a whole bunch of ships like Sovereign waiting in the dark space beyond the galaxy ready and eager to exterminate all organic life, and that they will enter  via the Citadel, wich everybody ignored that it was a giant mass relay.
Is far more easy to let the public believe that the "Geth" threat has been neutralized so everybody can go about their business. 
Will they later regret that attitude?  
Only ME3 will tell

[wookieeassassin]

Terror_K, exactly. In fact, to keep it from bothering me so through the rest of my playthrough I'm going to imagine that is what they did say, that they can't dedicate any resources to it until the threat is right up in their face. Then Shepard isn't convincing them the Reapers are real all over again, but he is saying: "Listen! The threat is right now, the Collectors are getting human colonies right now, we need to take action!", to which the Council would keep responding by saying that they have no evidence of that or there isn't enough evidence/direct threat to mobilize a fleet to go take the Reapers on.



I really hope Bioware realizes this discontinuity so this sort of thing doesn't happen again in ME3. Its the kind of discontinuity you really, really want to rationalize away because ME2 is still awesome, but in the end you kind of have to accept it was a slip-up.



Even the great Bioware can make mistakes I suppose.

[wookieeassassin]

oops, double posted.

Modifié par wookieeassassin, 03 novembre 2010 - 05:27 .