539 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

UberDuber wrote...
Fallout 3 WAS more of an RPG than DAO

By your definition, maybe.

[UberDuber]

LOL

[Monica83]

Well fallout 3 have dialogues with npc its much more rpg than oblivion but DAO its more rpg than fallout 3..

[MisterMonkeyBanana]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, I would agree with your evaluation of Bethesda games up until Obsidian's New Vegas. Obsidian's simple improvements to how firearms work made combat much more fun and much less of a chore. I could count the number of times I used VATS in New Vegas on one hand. And I used it a ton in F3.

I agree entirely with putting Deus Ex - which is the action RPG as far as I am concerned - on a pedestal though. That game is fantastic.

I never said the combat was bad, but I would agree FO:NV greatly improved combat. Though I'm still more interested in the exploration and the world. I probably just love discovery in games.

As for Deus Ex as the action RPG, never really thought of it was one, but it makes sense now that I think of it. I just find it as the game that perfectly melds actions and decisions together. Something which Bioware have always tried to separate. Or something.

monica - Yeah sorry for coming off as a bit snarky. But I'm just willing to give Bioware a chance with DA2 that they will make fun and interesting game, even if it isn't in the same vein as DAO or an Infinity Engine RPG.

[upsettingshorts]

Well, in Deus Ex you can also invest in your character's skills, it's actually a lot like Mass Effect 1-2 in that sense.

There's no Strength, Dexterity, etc - it's more specific like "Hacking" or "Guns."  It's been a while so I don't know the precise terms anymore.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 novembre 2010 - 03:05 .

[Monica83]

Well Monkey im worryed because the general line of how the things going in this marketing campaing change the games from the deep...



A nice Example:

Sim city.. born as a great complex simulation game the last one was a stupid streamlized game with bad features and poor of contenct... you are restricted to make some sort of city and you have costantly to see not much thing... "Fun of people" "roads" "Earn money" many featured like building wather system or electric system was streamlized as hell now you have only to put a central and you are done...

This is what it's happening with titles with EA marketing...



I think dragon age 2 will be an easy sequel with a nice story and much more action ala mass effect.. But not a proper CRPG..

[upsettingshorts]

Monica83 wrote...
This is what it's happening with titles with EA marketing...

Bioware made Mass Effect 1 and Jade Empire before they were part of EA, and they have much less in common with Baldur's Gate than Dragon Age 2 does.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 novembre 2010 - 03:09 .

[maxernst]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Monica83 wrote...
This is what it's happening with titles with EA marketing...

Bioware made Mass Effect 1 and Jade Empire before they were part of EA, and they have much less in common with Baldur's Gate than Dragon Age 2 does.

Although I share some of the concerns about DA2 because I don't really want the game to move in the direction of the mass effect games, I think it would be very funny if Bioware released a DLC with Commander Shepard landing on Thedas.

[Monica83]

Max LOOOL never say that!!!!! Marketing can make happen strange things...

[Meltemph]

born as a great complex simulation

The hell are you taking about? Making near perfect and large cities, utilizing the roads, pollution, crime, water, industry/commercial and ect was a hell of a lot more complex in 3 and 4. SimCity and SimCity 2000 were a lot easier. I suggest you watch some large city tutorials on youtube if you do not believe me.

[Monica83]

so you are telling me that simcity society its hard?.......





....



..

*Laughs*

Ok.... well it's better stay in topic

[upsettingshorts]

No, he said SimCity 3 and 4 were more complex than SimCity and SimCity 2000. And he's right..

[Meltemph]

Simcity society was a very different beast and not even made by Maxis and was overall a bad game, did not give it much of a try sorry. But 3 and 4 were published by EA and was leagues more complex then the 1st 2. Just because society was bad game is a different issue.





Besides, I never mentioned society. Either way, your notion that EA made it bad is rather silly.

[addiction21]

Monica83 wrote...

so you are telling me that simcity society its hard?.......


....

..
*Laughs*
Ok.... well it's better stay in topic

Are you purposefully so obtuse? Theres nothing about it being harder but its more about it being more complex.

[Monica83]

i can also give you other examples... and yes society was orrible.. the point is... streamlize streamlize streamlize its not a nice idea.. in the rpg or in a stragic or in a gestional game.... Its usefull to make better mechanics in shooter or action game that required to be faster to learn to play but if you streamlize a roleplay game you ruin all.. or even if you made a nice work well...at the end... The original old ones stays way better

[AtreiyaN7]

I've played BIoWare games ever since Baldur's Gate too. I loved all the older games, but one simply can't expect companies and/or games in specific genres not to evolve over time if they are to survive and prosper. If you want the gaming equivalent of a fly trapped in amber that's been preserved in all its glory for millions of years, perfect, eternal and unchanging, then try a museum of natural history - or maybe the Final Fantasy series.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 04 novembre 2010 - 03:42 .

[upsettingshorts]

Not necessarily. Accessibility does not have to come at the expense of complexity. Nor does a faster pace mean less depth.

Truisms aren't things that should be used so casually, as they tend to annoy people who disagree - heck they even annoy people who agree but don't like to read bad arguments.  So what specific feature(s) in DA:2 are you referring to?

Is it having a voiced protagonist? That has clear pros and cons.
Is it having a conversation wheel? Again, clear pros and cons.
The faster combat? How will it change the way you actually play the game? Does it even have to?

Without specifics and simply saying "older is better because it was older it came first and therefore is more representative of what the genre is" doesn't hold water without actually trying to explain why specific old features were better and why specific new ones are worse. First of all because they might not even be in conflict, and second of all because people - obviously - approach CRPGs differently.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 novembre 2010 - 03:45 .

[Daerog]

There should always be streamlined rpgs and strategy games out there somewhere for new comers to get introduced into the genre. If they just made the games more and more complex, it would just be harder for new comers to step in. I welcome all the newcomers coming into rpgs for the first time due to BioWare and EAs marketing. When a huge chunk of the market is playing rpgs, then they can go back to making it more and more complex if people really want that (and I sometimes do, of course) and the developers want that.

I am personally not hung up on the whole rpg/arpg/non-rpg issue, I just want another fun game with a good story from BioWare. As long as it is a BWG and story-focused, I'm happy. Well, so far. RPG is all fun and I always look forward to new ones, but I'm not going to hold it against BW if they decide they want to try to make a mystery/puzzle game like Myst or whatever.

Edit: On that note, I'm not personally calling what BioWare is doing as "streamlined" and I'm not saying that it isn't "streamlined."

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 04 novembre 2010 - 03:47 .

[TrackerTrem]

So it's like Kingdom hearts?

[Meltemph]

Better is subjective and no point arguing it really. However, when people point to older games as being complex, simply because they deem it so, it gets rather silly. Convoluted != complex nor does difficulty. Ikuragua is one of the hardest games I have ever played, but complex it was not.



Either way, no point in me continuing on, since it is quite obvious, some just want to complain for the next 5 months, so have at it, not exactly hard to ignore. As long as the developers make games I like, I'll be happy they don't listen to the vocal minority of complainers(specially the outliers of even those).



Besides, just like with DAO all the constant complainers will be back, more then likely, complaining about DA3 and how "this is the last straw". You would think I would be used to seeing it by now.

[Lyssistr]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I've played BIoWare games ever since Baldur's Gate too. I loved all the older games, but one simply can't expect companies and/or games in specific genres not to evolve over time if they are to survive and prosper. If you want the gaming equivalent of a fly trapped in amber that's been preserved in all its glory for millions of years, perfect, eternal and unchanging, then try a museum of natural history - or maybe the Final Fantasy series.

 It's not about Bioware as a whole and their games in general, it's about DA franchise which was supposed to be about reviving cRPGs. It can evolve in many ways, and DA:O included many of them, still if a franchise is about being the spiritual successor to BG, it's a reasonable to expect it to play similarly, not the same but similarly. I mean Diablo III won't be the same as the previous two, albeit they went with design decisions that don't alter the feel of D's franchise.

 Also not all changes are evolutionary, e.g. removing the possibility for a proper top down view e.g. isn't evolving anything, just removing.

[upsettingshorts]

To me, "streamlining" means reducing the signal to noise ratio of player feedback, making the GUI more intuitive, and little things like more useful tutorials and clearer indications of what the player should do next when (and only when) they are feeling lost, such as a quest journal or waypoints.

Seems that many veteran genre fans appear to have a problem with all of those things in new games, which I'm not sure I always understand. I suppose the arguments that quest markers and waypoints break immersion are sound, but that's an exception. Most anti-streamlining arguments I run across either aren't actually about streamlining, and/or have a whiff of elitism implied with them and strike me as nonsense.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 novembre 2010 - 03:59 .

[Daerog]

BioWare is just preparing the fanbase for JE2 with all the talk of "action rpg."

[Lyssistr]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

To me, "streamlining" means reducing the signal to noise ratio of player feedback, making the GUI more intuitive, and little things like more useful tutorials and clearer indications of what the player should do next when (and only when) they are feeling lost, such as a quest journal or waypoints.

Seems that people seem to have a problem with all of those things, which I'm not sure I always understand. I suppose the arguments that quest markers and waypoints break immersion are sound, but that's an exception. Most anti-streamlining arguments I run across either aren't about streamlining, or have a whiff of elitism implied with them and strike me as nonsense.

 Actually progressing the GUI, even adding "!"'s above quest-givers is "positive" streamlining. It is literally streamlining, improving tenuous *technical* aspects of a game.

 However, when mob variety is reduced, tactics get simplified etc, is that literally streamlining, or is it an oversimplification that makes the game less interesting?

[AlanC9]

Lyssistr wrote...
....still if a franchise is about being the spiritual successor to BG, it's a reasonable to expect it to play similarly, not the same but similarly.

But what counts as "similarly," and what about DA2 wouldn't be "similar"?