539 réponses à ce sujet

[Lyssistr]

soteria wrote...

Look, we can discuss this all day and always catch each other on phrasing, you can't define a mathematical metric to measure "how far" two game are and at the end you'd need a bunch of law-makers to define similarity very strictly.

 However, I think it's pretty clear BG wasn't an aRPG.

I thought you said you were leaving.  Back to insist DA2 will be an aRPG and therefore bad?  As I said in the other thread, DA:O was marketed as an action RPG as well.  You seem to have managed to miss the post, so I'll quote myself:

I can't find the Bioware quote about DA:O being an action RPG, but the following is what I found in a google search for "dragon age origins action rpg." All of these descriptions are from previews.

Kotaku:

Combat Options: According to the BioWare guys showing me the game, Dragon Age can be played as a real-time twitch-based action-RPG a la Fable 2. And a player need plumb no deeper than that.

thekoalition, from a preview in E3:

For a medieval type setting (which has been done again and again in rpg’s) this game seems to offer much more depth than many before it. Of course it’s completely different to the likes of Elder Scrolls, because Dragon Age is more of an action rpg, but it just so happens to include a lot of interesting dialog and story pathways.

newsarama,
Penny Arcade Expo, Sept 2009:

The game itself, a third person action-RPG, appears to take a lot of its gameplay cues from Mass Effect over Knights of the Old Republic (two popular Bioware franchises), using almost entirely real-time combat with radial menus, although not in the dialog, which uses a list menu.

Also, Dragon Age is currently listed under Action RPGs on this site... http://www.gamersgat.../rpg/action-rpg
One conclusion that is easy to draw is that obviously those people got the idea that DA:O would be an action RPG from somewhere. I also found articles saying DA:O would "kinda but not really" be an action RPG, quotes that you would have to "think like a wise commander but fight like the guy on the front lines" (sound familiar?), and others vehemently denying that DA:O would be anything like an action RPG. All in all, sounds a lot like the marketing for DA2.

I think the main thing to take away is that people have different definitions of "action RPG." Some people seem to mean it has a lot of combat, others that it has real time combat, others apparently that "you push a button and something happens," and some that you control every aspect of combat (ie, blocking, stabbing, slashing, etc). Trying to draw meaning from someone's statement that a game is "actiony" or an "action-RPG" is stupid unless you already know exactly how they define that term.

 I never said DA2 is going to be bad, in fact I've said on several occasions it's probably going to be a decent to good aRPG, just not the type of game I'd be looking forward to, as the elements which got me into DA franchise in the first place probably won't be there anymore. Especially considering focus doesn't seem to be on PC.

 The references you cited are not from Bio tho, this time it's Bio advertising DA2 as an aRPG. Bio pushed DAO as a return to their roots, a spiritual successor, a game that would revive old school RPGs etc.

[Rojahalive]

I hate when something awesome happens when I press a button. I want to press a button, and watch my character shuffle around confused for 5 minutes, and then slowly wind up a swing, only to miss because her target is already dead.

[addiction21]

Monica83 wrote...

I know Daerog but i repeat if DA3 will be in that way you can always find an army of fanboys to protect it! lol

OH NOES THE FANBOY CARD HAS BEEND PLAYED!!!!

Quick everyone run to your basements and eat cheesypoofs.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Rojahalive wrote...

I hate when something awesome happens when I press a button. I want to press a button, and watch my character shuffle around confused for 5 minutes, and then slowly wind up a swing, only to miss because her target is already dead.

Its funny because its true

[Lyssistr]

AlanC9 wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...
 Well for many things there's no universal notion, including "good", "bad", "similar", "tasty", "ugly", yet people as of lately somehow manage to use them. Similarly is similarly, I really can't expand more on that.

Right. But if I think they're similar and you don't.... what?  The argument ends. Like I said, it's empty rhetoric; there's no way to get anywhere useful or interesting from there.

Well in that sense, half the words out there consist an empty rhetoric. Similar is similar, as I said before, I can't really expand more on this.

[Onyx Jaguar]

addiction21 wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

I know Daerog but i repeat if DA3 will be in that way you can always find an army of fanboys to protect it! lol

OH NOES THE FANBOY CARD HAS BEEND PLAYED!!!!

Quick everyone run to your basements and eat cheesypoofs.

I'm already writing a 50 page essay on why DA 3 should be an arcade game. 

Hell I think a couple of months ago I even suggested a subscription plan on these forums like charging you five bucks to create a character and 50 cents to revive when dead.  IT WOULD JUST MAKE TOO MUCH SENSE.

I only think of whats best for Electronic Arts.  

[Daerog]

Monica83 wrote...

I know Daerog but i repeat if DA3 will be in that way you can always find an army of fanboys to protect it! lol

Well, I actually did like the combat/gameplay in DoW2, so I wouldn't have a problem personally. I would have a problem if they threw out choices and dialogue and made it completely like DoW2. More than three stats to build up would be good, too.

Oh, but you are right.
<----- BDF right here. Just a lowly acolyte so far, haven't been as committed as I should be to receive that promotion.

[Monica83]

Press a button and something awesome haapens!



Mh.... can be something funny to write in a spaceship on the button of autodestruction!

[Onyx Jaguar]

Pressing the autodestruct button is indeed very awesome

[Daerog]

Ugh, ever since I heard Peter M. say that he wants to see something awesome happen everytime he presses a button, I did a minor facepalm (index and middle finger and thumb to forehead). It's a fun idea, but I don't need to see explosive fireworks and lazer beams when I press the start button to open up the menu or inventory screen... if there is one anyway.

Side Note: I'm not bashing Peter M. I actually find him to be a very entertaining and happy fellow, I just don't like the whole 1 button = awesomeness happens thing.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 04 novembre 2010 - 04:42 .

[Lyssistr]

Meltemph wrote...

For tactics, I measure complexity in terms of strategic depth, not in terms of reflexes.

Reflexes? Less time to react would mean your tactics would have to be more precise and "in the moment". Sure reflexes might play a part, but they play a part in any game you play. That is even assuming that is what they do. Either way, DAO was not complex by any means, so to expect complexity in DA2 is rather...odd to me.

 tbh we'll end up in a different discussion, what measures what etc. I take it that you refer to complex as problems which are in the style of timed phychometrics/aptitude/numeracy tests etc, where the problems may be easy but time is ticking. I was referring to complexity purely from a decision tree breadth&depth point of view to make my position more clear.

 DAO was not complex, but in comparison to its competition it was more complex than the rest.

 BG II e.g. had a greater variety of mobs and that added complexity, I found BG II more strategically interesting than BG I. My initial hope was that DA2, at least for hardmode, would add a bit of salt & pepper in mob tactics, instead of going the "push a button & awesome stuff happens" route.

Modifié par Lyssistr, 04 novembre 2010 - 04:46 .

[upsettingshorts]

Indeed, if every button push led to something awesome, the very concept of awesome would be cheapened to the point of routine, thus losing the whole point in the first place.

[sw33t nothings]

I only want button pressing to lead to disappointment. That's how I prefer my gaming experience.

[Lyssistr]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Indeed, if every button push led to something awesome, the very concept of awesome would be cheapened to the point of routine, thus losing the whole point in the first place.

It's awesomeness overinflation, bound to cause a great videogames-depression.

[Onyx Jaguar]

I like it where in RE4, Falout 3 and Left 4 Dead everytime I pressed a button a head exploded. And that was always awesome.

[upsettingshorts]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I like it where in RE4, Falout 3 and Left 4 Dead everytime I pressed a button a head exploded. And that was always awesome.

You must have good aim and a high caliber weapon!

[Monica83]

Yes lyssis Bg2 is very very tactical and many monster are really hard to bring down even if a party of 6 elements.. I just remember the first time i fought the red dragon or Kangaxx a memorable fight really..I miss that costantly in danger Atmosphere

[Onyx Jaguar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I like it where in RE4, Falout 3 and Left 4 Dead everytime I pressed a button a head exploded. And that was always awesome.

You must have good aim and a high caliber weapon!

The Hunting Rifle in FA3 and any assault rifle in L4D is quite glorious

RE4 literally was awesome every time you pressed a button.  Hell it was awesome when you didn't press a button and just sat there and died. 

[Daerog]

sw33t nothings wrote...

I only want button pressing to lead to disappointment. That's how I prefer my gaming experience.

I prefer press button -> something happens -> press corresponding button to match up with previous event -> related something happens -> press another button -> BOOM!

And yes, the journey is the important part and needing the right buttons. This allows for a greater variety of BOOMS. If I change a button somewhere in the mix, a different BOOM happens, or I mess up. This leads to experimentation and replay.

Edit: Or in the case of DA:O, press button -> leads to an action that leads up to something that will eventually be awesome. IMMA CHARGIN' UP MY INFERNO!

Edit2: I'm also cool with a button doing something boring. Like openning up a menu.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 04 novembre 2010 - 04:52 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

I have yet to get to the awesome of saving up some money, getting killed numerous times by a boss and then purchasing an uber weapon that only works once. Going to that boss, pressing a button to which something awesome happened and that boss was dead.



All games should dare to be that awesome. Like a 200 sovereign magic rod or something. Would be glorious.

[Lyssistr]

Monica83 wrote...

Yes lyssis Bg2 is very very tactical and many monster are really hard to bring down even if a party of 6 elements.. I just remember the first time i fought the red dragon or Kangaxx a memorable fight really..I miss that costantly in danger Atmosphere

I wouldn't call it harder, just more interesting due to a greater variety in tactics. You can make a game harder by e.g. tripling the hp and dps of all mobs, that would make it harder but not necessarily more interesting.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Generally the more options you have the easier the games become unless you force hte player to use all the options specifically. Which when that happens the game becomes stupid and frustrating.



This is why usually games that take place on a 3D plane are easier than those on a 2D plane.

[Meltemph]

I take it that you refer to complex as problems which are in the style of timed phychometrics/aptitude/numeracy tests etc, where the problems may be easy but time is ticking.

No, complexity has many was of presenting itself, but "planning ahead" or "adjusting in the moment" are not more complex then the other, it largely depends on how they are handled.

I was referring to complexity purely from a decision tree breadth&depth point of view to make my position more clear.

 My point was that just because they change how the complexity of combat works does not mean it is less complex, only changed. now whether you like the change, that is something different, I would say.

Either way, that is why I said, the only thing you can do is judge it based on what it is and not what you want it to be.

DAO was not complex, but in comparing it to its competition it was more complex than the rest.

What competition is that? I honestly don't know what you are comparing it to, so kinda lost with this comment.

BG II e.g. had a greater variety of mobs and that added complexity,

While I would agree, it really is not a fair comparison, BG had a fricking monsters manual to pull from. DA is literally a from scratch setting.

I found BG II more strategically interesting than BG I.

Agree.

My initial hope was that DA2, at least for hardmode, would add a bit of salt & pepper in mob tactics, instead of going the "push a button & awesome stuff happens" route.

I agree variety in mobs is always a plus in terms of adding a variety on how to deal with each situation, but if they just mix up the fight sequences and have proper tactics(robust AI) to the enemies, then it could eaily be just as if not more complex. Now a days you don't have to be as fixated on mob variety if the AI is very good. I guess we will see how it goes, but I can't see it being any less complex then DAO, I mean, it is not even sounding less complex to me.

Modifié par Meltemph, 04 novembre 2010 - 04:56 .

[Monica83]

I agree with you on thing i love of BG its the variety of ennemy you can see something different when you go in the dungeons danger is in every side you must be carefull looking for traps or hidden ennemy..Not the banal traps of origin but the one that can be Really dangerous.. Like the magic ones that turns your party member in a well defined statue lol

[Daerog]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I have yet to get to the awesome of saving up some money, getting killed numerous times by a boss and then purchasing an uber weapon that only works once. Going to that boss, pressing a button to which something awesome happened and that boss was dead.

All games should dare to be that awesome. Like a 200 sovereign magic rod or something. Would be glorious.

What's even awesomer is defeating a super hard boss without any legendary or expensive equipment and barely surviving. You know, like adding drama and achievement. However, I do enjoy entertainment and just having fun w/o worrying about challenges, I play BW games after all. ZING!