539 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Planescape Torment wasn't complex from a gameplay standpoint, it wasn't that different from an Adventure game emphasized more heavily than BG

Also you have no idea what the word casual means so I suggest you stop using the term

Planescape: Torment was a wonderful game, but it was actually quite easy, so I think it would be a fine game for any casual gamer who enjoys reading.

[AtreiyaN7]

Monica83 wrote...

FPS are for casual players
SPort games are for casual player
Beat em up are for casual player
When an rpg becomes for casual player its not an rpg

Oh God, now we're going to have a war over the definition of casual games vs. non-casual games...I'm going to hazard a guess that most people would agree that the more accurate definition of so-called casual games includes simple puzzle games like Bejeweled or strategy games like Plants vs. Zombies (or any other PopCap game practically).

The "casual" game is aimed at someone with minimal gaming experience, someone who probably hasn't done much more than play solitaire on their computer. Madden 11, for example, is hardly something I would call a "casual" game. It's not like I'm going to pick it up and instantly be trashing the opposing football team. You do realize that you have to learn the plays necessary to run an offense and defense, right? 

I can't stand sports games, but that's besides the point - even I know that you don't just click a button and insta-win at them without thinking. Seriously, it almost sounds as if you think anything that doesn't involve silent protagonists, dice rolls and a ton of stats is "casual."

EDIT: WOOPS, belatedly saw that Epler hath spoken and declared further discussion of this verboten. Uh, just ignore this.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 05 novembre 2010 - 04:32 .

[AlanC9]

So now that we're done with that nonsense, what's left of the thread?

Edit: Or are we done with it?

Modifié par AlanC9, 05 novembre 2010 - 04:33 .

[TuringPoint]

 Want to make a point:  He doesn't say Dragon Age II is like GTA.    He says it's possibly more of an action RPG.  But what he describes is what has always been described from the beginning.  Pause and play.

Odd how things sound when you take them out of context.

[Nighteye2]

maxernst wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
Planescape Torment wasn't complex from a gameplay standpoint, it wasn't that different from an Adventure game emphasized more heavily than BG

Also you have no idea what the word casual means so I suggest you stop using the term

Planescape: Torment was a wonderful game, but it was actually quite easy, so I think it would be a fine game for any casual gamer who enjoys reading.

We really need more games like Planescape: Torment. RPGs for the RPG-lovers.

[In Exile]

soteria wrote...
Because the AI is only as bad as you make it. My first playthrough I certainly had a lot of trouble with the AI doing stupid stuff, but after I learned the sytem I never had any trouble with it. I don't even use the better tactics mod.

I can't speak to the actual ability of the AI - after all, I never used tactics. It is just the case that the other poster suggested that (for example) AoE spells were off limits because of FF problems with the AI. That is a situation that (to me) seems to lead to gimping.

I just set up a few basic targeting commands (usually to have companions pair up and/or attack nearest) and tell them to use certain abilities like Flurry, Sunder Arms and Winter's Grasp as long as they have >50% stamina. That way they kill pretty quickly but don't waste all their stamina or blow clutch abilities like pommel strike.

Right, I understand how this is supposed to work in principle; I just don't see why it's fun. For example, I think ME2 would be more fun if we could swap party members. Obviously the choice is not there, but I am just remarkin in general that I cannot "see" the fun. I don't think this is something anyone can explain to me.

[upsettingshorts]

It's simple really. Maintaining a brisk pace in combat is more appealing to me than continuous micromanagement. So I front-load my micromanagement by constructing complicated and comprehensive tactics before engaging in battle.

[soteria]

I can't speak to the actual ability of the AI - after all, I never used tactics. It is just the case that the other poster suggested that (for example) AoE spells were off limits because of FF problems with the AI. That is a situation that (to me) seems to lead to gimping.

I found ways to use them. Fireball and VWB could be used on enemies "from medium to long range," for example. But I never tried to use tactics as a replacement for myself or to completely automate my companions. I used it as a tool to reduce the amount of input needed from me.

Right, I understand how this is supposed to work in principle; I just don't see why it's fun. For example, I think ME2 would be more fun if we could swap party members. Obviously the choice is not there, but I am just remarkin in general that I cannot "see" the fun. I don't think this is something anyone can explain to me.

Probably not. It would be a little like explaining why a joke is funny.

[upsettingshorts]

Yeah, by far the most important Tactics I ever used in terms of how much more fun it made the game by implementing them was:

Self: Health = less than 50%, use Health Potion (Least Powerful)

And the equivalent healing spells and mana potions for the mage.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 novembre 2010 - 12:58 .

[Perles75]

Nighteye2 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
Planescape Torment wasn't complex from a gameplay standpoint, it wasn't that different from an Adventure game emphasized more heavily than BG

Also you have no idea what the word casual means so I suggest you stop using the term

Planescape: Torment was a wonderful game, but it was actually quite easy, so I think it would be a fine game for any casual gamer who enjoys reading.

We really need more games like Planescape: Torment. RPGs for the RPG-lovers.

Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

Easily the best RPG I've ever played (oh my, those dialogues! those characters! the story!), I don't see how it can be defined an adventure game.

[In Exile]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's simple really. Maintaining a brisk pace in combat is more appealing to me than continuous micromanagement. So I front-load my micromanagement by constructing complicated and comprehensive tactics before engaging in battle.

I think I get what you mean. To me, setting up tactics is work. First, I have to spend time reading the commands. Then, I have to think about how they interact. Then, I have to think about how these things might be problems/advantages in a variety of situations in the future. Then I have to set them up and test them.

That all seems like a tremendous amount of work, whereas micromanaging is just keeping everything on auto-pilot. It's not that I don't think, but I think on my feet in the context of the situation, and I like that. Pause is awesome, because it allows me the time I want from quick-on-my-feet thought to immediately executing it (like yelling a command versus having to physically force someone to do it).

[upsettingshorts]

Yeah, I don't imagine it's all that much different in terms of overall workload, it just takes lots of small chunks of what would normally be spread out across many different encounters and tries to figure out what can most efficiently be automated - and puts all that work in one big chunk at the beginning.

It would be hard to design a Tactic for a character for every possible situation, but there's always Pause for that. I don't design Tactics around boss fights for example, mainly assuming a typical encounter with possibly an Officer or Elite, and building around that. In boss fights I imagine I Pause just as much as anyone else.

Some Tactics I didn't really anticipate putting in but realized I was always doing manually anyway, like, one of my earliest (in the pecking order, so they do it first thing if it makes sense) mage tactics is:

If the Enemy is class:Mage, Cast Spell: Mana Clash.

So the effect would be as soon as we encountered a group of an enemies that had a mage, my own mage would first ensure she had enough health and mana (first tactics on the list, always) and then immediately cast Mana Clash on the mage. Boom, dead mage immediately. Tactics like that, when spread out across class and character to neutralize dangerous enemies efficiently really starts to add up, and encounters are a breeze and no less tactical than before, just almost as if they were decided before you got there by planning ahead.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 novembre 2010 - 01:18 .

[FedericoV]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

See, that's why everyone should just use my definition - including Dr. Ray. "Action RPG" means it has twitch! It's simple and draws the line very clearly. Mass Effect 2 and Fallout New Vegas are therefore action RPGs, and by no stretch of the definition is DA:2 an action RPG.

Do you know that in DA2 warriors (or was it rogues) will recharge stamina constantly pushing a button? And that most consolle players will use autoattack only for charachers that they are not using, constantly pushing buttons for the characher that they are controlling? Those are twitch mechanics if I get what you mean with the term.

[upsettingshorts]

FedericoV wrote...
Do you know that in DA2 warriors (or was it rogues) will recharge stamina constantly pushing a button? And that most consolle players will use autoattack only for charachers that they are not using, constantly pushing buttons for the characher that they are controlling? Those are twitch mechanics if I get what you mean with the term.

They aren't twitch mechanics by my definition.  Twitch mechanics in a melee game would be like Oblivion or Mount & Blade.

[Leonia]

Mount & Blade

Button-mashing isn't necessarily synonymous with twitch-combat.

Modifié par leonia42, 05 novembre 2010 - 01:21 .

[In Exile]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Yeah, I don't imagine it's all that much different in terms of overall workload, it just takes lots of small chunks of what would normally be spread out across many different encounters and tries to figure out what can most efficiently be automated - and puts all that work in one big chunk at the beginning.

It's not the amount of work - it's that it feels like. I'm the sort of person that simply throws himself into a task and figures it out on the fly. It takes a lot of effort for me to plan something out in advance. I need a lot of help with that sort of task, because I'm just not the sort of person to work that way.

Some Tactics I didn't really anticipate putting in but realized I was always doing manually anyway, like, one of my earliest (in the pecking order, so they do it first thing if it makes sense) mage tactics is:

If the Enemy is class:Mage, Cast Spell: Mana Clash.

So the effect would be as soon as we encountered a group of an enemies that had a mage, my own mage would first ensure she had enough health and mana (first tactics on the list, always) and then immediately cast Mana Clash on the mage. Boom, dead mage immediately.

Right, I get that, but it just seems like it takes away the fun of playing the game. Let me try to come up with an analogy. To me, the tactic system is like an "auto combo" system in a combo-based action game, where instead of having to get the timing right yourself you're letting the computer do it automatically for you.

Tactics like that, when spread out across class and character to neutralize dangerous enemies efficiently really starts to add up, and encounters are a breeze and no less tactical than before, just almost as if they were decided before you got there by planning ahead.

I'm not denying that tactics are useful; I just personally am incapable of finding them fun. It's a preference thing.

[In Exile]

FedericoV wrote...

Do you know that in DA2 warriors (or was it rogues) will recharge stamina constantly pushing a button? And that most consolle players will use autoattack only for charachers that they are not using, constantly pushing buttons for the characher that they are controlling? Those are twitch mechanics if I get what you mean with the term.

I was under the impression you could use the radial menu to activate auto-attack on the console for the player you're controlling. That aside, what do you mean you can recharge stamina by pushing a button? Mash B to increase regen or something?

[upsettingshorts]

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. My only response would be that I'm continuously updating the tactics, either to tweak it to get better results, or implement new abilities. It's not as static as my descriptions imply.

In any case, the primary benefit is that it simply allows me to play my PC more exclusively. I imagine that, at least in DA:O, the best class to do this with would probably be the mage as they simply required the most real-time micromanagement to get the most out of them.

But yeah, it's more of a focus/pacing question than an active vs. passive one, at least in my view. I get your point though.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 novembre 2010 - 01:27 .

[In Exile]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
In any case, the primary benefit is that it simply allows me to play my PC more exclusively. I imagine that, at least in DA:O, the best class to do this with would probably be the mage as they simply required the most real-time micromanagement to get the most out of them.

See, I always think that backstab rogues require the most micromanagement, because all their attacks are positional, so you can't just pause+click ability + move on. Two-handed warriors second, because their entire class is based on not auto-attacking. I felt mages required the least micromanagement because they worked on the fire and forget principle.

I often use 3 mage + 1 warrior parties, and I don't find them hard to manage (except for the warrior), but I typically resolve that by using a meatshield build.

[upsettingshorts]

Well, the game I did the big Tactics playthrough on was two-handed warrior, and you're right - I used abilities a LOT. Especially crowd control. I was basically a wrecking ball.

But to get around the rogue issue I simply trained up Leliana to be an archer (which lends itself extremely well to Tactics, probably more than any other class) and killed Zevran (for a number of reasons). And my mages I split up, Wynne was levelled up as a straight heal/support bot and could be entirely left to her own Tactics-driven devices, and Morrigan had a heal spell but was more useful but demanded more micro. Alistair was the tank, and tanks are easy to write tactics for too.

The 3 mage party would be interesting to come up with a Tactic for. You've actually given me an idea of how I'm gonna approach DA:2 and that is to come up with a variety of tactical combinations that might be considered unconventional (at least from my perspective) as my party was very very conventional and that's one of the reasons why designing Tactics for it was relatively simple.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 novembre 2010 - 01:42 .

[Emperor Mars]

Action RPG? As opposed to what? A text based rpg of the days of yore? Honestly it is possible to an rpg and action, its not like the pairing of the two cause one to spontaneously combust.

[In Exile]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
The 3 mage party would be interesting to come up with a Tactic for. You've actually given me an idea of how I'm gonna approach DA:2 and that is to come up with a variety of tactical combinations that might be considered unconventional (at least from my perspective) as my party was very very conventional and that's one of the reasons why designing Tactics for it was relatively simple.

I use the wackiest parties. Did a 4 archer run once (hard, not nightmare) and this is actually a pretty awesome combination. There are certain bosses that are just nuts (the high dragon and flemeth mostly) but the game sustained long-rage fire can be absolutely brutal. And if you pump dex with all 4 characters and stack bonuses from things like champion and bard you actually have a pretty outrageous defence and attack.

There are gimped abilities in DA:O, but the big balance problem is that there are gimped parties. Warrior/Warrior + Rogue/Mage is honestly the weakest combo in the game, and almost impossible to play on nightmare because of how hard CCing is.

[soteria]

There are gimped abilities in DA:O, but the big balance problem is that there are gimped parties. Warrior/Warrior + Rogue/Mage is honestly the weakest combo in the game, and almost impossible to play on nightmare because of how hard CCing is.

Really? That wasn't my experience. I played a game with Alistair, Dog (warrior, basically), Morrigan, and a PC rogue. It was surprisingly easy... between dread howl, overwhelm, charge, a ranger pet, a SnS champion/templar's CC (shield abilities + warcry + holy smite), and all the CC Morrigan has, I found it to be pretty easy. That was the first playthrough I completed on nightmare without using potions or healing spells. What a lot of people tend to overlook is the number of CC and debuffing abilities available to them. Even an all-warrior group can keep enemies locked down for extended periods.

I guess it's possible you could make a case for other groups being even easier, but I'm not sure I'd buy it. I would think 3 rogues and a warrior would be the hardest, unless the rogues are rangers.

[FedericoV]

In Exile wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

Do you know that in DA2 warriors (or was it rogues) will recharge stamina constantly pushing a button? And that most consolle players will use autoattack only for charachers that they are not using, constantly pushing buttons for the characher that they are controlling? Those are twitch mechanics if I get what you mean with the term.

I was under the impression you could use the radial menu to activate auto-attack on the console for the player you're controlling. That aside, what do you mean you can recharge stamina by pushing a button? Mash B to increase regen or something?

As I remember from the Q&A gameplay thread, every class should have different way to recharge stamina. Mages charge stamina standing still. Rogues charge stamina doing crits and Warriors charge stamina constantly pushing a button. I should check the thread to be sure, but that's the general idea. I do not remember if there's stamina/mana regen at all (I do not believe so, otherwise the mage regen would be nonsensical).

Autoattack: for me autoattack in DA2 are a nice option but not the way the game is meant to be played honestly (at least on the consolle, having played the demo and watched many persons play it).

Modifié par FedericoV, 05 novembre 2010 - 03:40 .

[Marionetten]

In Exile wrote...

See, I always think that backstab rogues require the most micromanagement, because all their attacks are positional, so you can't just pause+click ability + move on. Two-handed warriors second, because their entire class is based on not auto-attacking. I felt mages required the least micromanagement because they worked on the fire and forget principle.

While I definitely agree about two-handed warriors Coup De Grace completely negates the need for positional awareness.

Mages on the other hand require precise attacks due to friendly fire. You can't simply pause and put that fireball wherever you please. You have to put it somewhere where it will achieve maximum damage while not endangering your own party. As such, I'm inclined to say that offensively minded mages require the most micromanagent by far. Obviously gishes and healers are completely different beasts.

Modifié par Marionetten, 05 novembre 2010 - 03:57 .