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[soteria]

While I definitely agree about two-handed warriors Coup De Grace completely negates the need for positional awareness.

Not completely. First, it's impractical and probably impossible to keep everything stunned/paralyzed all the time. Second, stuns have an opportunity cost which may or may not be greater or less than that of moving into position. Third, not everything is vulnerable to stuns. It's a useful talent, but it's not true that it completely negates positional requirements.

[Marionetten]

soteria wrote...

While I definitely agree about two-handed warriors Coup De Grace completely negates the need for positional awareness.

Not completely. First, it's impractical and probably impossible to keep everything stunned/paralyzed all the time. Second, stuns have an opportunity cost which may or may not be greater or less than that of moving into position. Third, not everything is vulnerable to stuns. It's a useful talent, but it's not true that it completely negates positional requirements.

Grandmaster Paralyze Rune begs to differ.

You can easily and effectively run an autoattack backstab rogue. I did just so with Zevran.

[In Exile]

soteria wrote...
Really? That wasn't my experience. I played
a game with Alistair, Dog (warrior, basically), Morrigan, and a PC
rogue. It was surprisingly easy... between dread howl, overwhelm,
charge, a ranger pet, a SnS champion/templar's CC (shield abilities +
warcry + holy smite), and all the CC Morrigan has, I found it to be
pretty easy.

Dog is a unique class, like Shale. I don't count either of them. Dog has overwhelm which essentially removes an enemy from combat for massive damage and AoE stun.

With Alistar/Warrior PC/Wynne/Leliana, the game is very hard on nightmare. It becomes easy in the late-game, though, once you can pump your warrior PC's stats via gear.

That was the first playthrough I
completed on nightmare without using potions or healing spells. What a
lot of people tend to overlook is the number of CC and debuffing
abilities available to them. Even an all-warrior group can keep enemies
locked down for extended periods.

Ogren/Alistair/Sten and Warrior PC? All you could do with that group is manipulate targeting via aggro.

I guess it's possible you could make a case
for other groups being even easier, but I'm not sure I'd buy it. I
would think 3 rogues and a warrior would be the hardest, unless the
rogues are rangers.

You can juggle CC via arrows for mooks and you can do decent damage on bosses with 4x arrow of slaying. It's a hard group to play, no doubt. though. If you pump dex for each you'd have a group that's very hard to hit, too and with bard bonuses and the champion bonus you can pump it even further.

Marionetten wrote...
While I definitely agree about two-handed warriors Coup De Grace completely negates the need for positional awareness.

Not at all. That requires that you actually rely on paralysis as a staple of combat, which to be perfectly honest I don't always do. Mass Paralysis takes time to fire off, and the glymph combo requires you get a feel for the AoE to not paralyze your own party. It's far easier to fireball spam or Storm of the Century mooks.

Bosses paralyze rarely (on nightmare anyway) so it's hard to rely on that for your rogue.

Mages on the other hand require precise attacks due to friendly fire. You can't simply pause and put that fireball wherever you please. You have to put it somewhere where it will achieve maximum damage while not endangering your own party. As such, I'm inclined to say that offensively minded mages require the most micromanagent by far. Obviously gishes and healers are completely different beasts.

No, FF mages are very easy to use. Enemies have a tendency to form cones - essentially, they will very rarely sorround your tank. If they do, you can forcefield him. If they don't, you can catch them all in a fireball cone.

It may depend on playstyle, but for me, mages absolutely require little effort. It's pause, get the cone, light up the enemy, fire. And most mage abilities are single damage - i.e. spirit/ice/lightning.

FedericoV wrote...

As I remember from the Q&A gameplay
thread, every class should have different way to recharge stamina.
Mages charge stamina standing still. Rogues charge stamina doing crits
and Warriors charge stamina constantly pushing a button. I should check
the thread to be sure, but that's the general idea. I do not remember if
there's stamina/mana regen at all (I do not believe so, otherwise the
mage regen would be nonsensical).

Autoattack: for me autoattack
in DA2 are a nice option but not the way the game is meant to be played
honestly (at least on the consolle, having played the demo and watched
many persons play it).

Are you sure it was pushing a button or it was pushing the attack button (i.e. warriors renegerate stamina via hitting enemies)? 

Modifié par In Exile, 05 novembre 2010 - 04:22 .

[In Exile]

Marionetten wrote...
Grandmaster Paralyze Rune begs to differ.

You can easily and effectively run an autoattack backstab rogue. I did just so with Zevran.

Does a rune have to deal with resistances on nightmare, or is it just the case that 1/20 hits will lead to paralysis? How often did Zevran hit to paralyze the target?

[Marionetten]

In Exile wrote...

Does a rune have to deal with resistances on nightmare, or is it just the case that 1/20 hits will lead to paralysis?

I'm pretty sure that every crowd control ability is subject to additional resistances on Nightmare. That said, keep in mind that the bonuses do stack. With two runes you'd be looking at 1/10. With three... well, you do the math.

In Exile wrote...

How often did Zevran hit to paralyze the target?

With the insane attack speed of a dagger wielding rogue it really is a non-issue. Try it for yourself.

[In Exile]

Marionetten wrote...
I'm pretty sure that every crowd control ability is subject to additional resistances on Nightmare. That said, keep in mind that the bonuses do stack. With two runes you'd be looking at 1/10. With three... well, you do the math.

Roughly 1/7, as it turns out.

With the insane attack speed of a dagger wielding rogue it really is a non-issue. Try it for yourself.

I might, if I find the time.

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...

Marionetten wrote...
Grandmaster Paralyze Rune begs to differ.

You can easily and effectively run an autoattack backstab rogue. I did just so with Zevran.

Does a rune have to deal with resistances on nightmare, or is it just the case that 1/20 hits will lead to paralysis? How often did Zevran hit to paralyze the target?

Could someone check me on this; my game is showing a 10% chance of paralysis on that rune, rather than the 5% the Wiki shows. I've got a couple of mods installed, but AFAIK none of them make runes more powerful.


Edit: NM. Turns out it's part of Combat Tweaks, which upgrades the chances for high-level paralysis runes, rather than upping duration.

Note that in vanilla all such runes have a 5% chance, so you can really stack those suckers. 

Modifié par AlanC9, 05 novembre 2010 - 05:12 .

[the_one_54321]

I've been using Grandmaster Paralyze Runes on my rogue since... well most of the game, from whenever they become available. I have to see, I've never witnessed a noticeable difference in what happens in combat. I'm not saying there is no difference, I'm sure there is. I've just never noticed it.

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...

With Alistar/Warrior PC/Wynne/Leliana, the game is very hard on nightmare. It becomes easy in the late-game, though, once you can pump your warrior PC's stats via gear.

Does they type of warrior PC matter?

I actually found this setup fairly powerful from the midgame, once Wynne had lots of glyphs available. It's a little micromanagey since you're a lot less efficient if you're outside the glyphs' range, though (and don't get me started on Paralysis Explosion -- I had to take GoP off of Wynne's AI list altogether). The big thing to watch for is Leliana pulling all the aggro from ranged attackers, but Wynne can be set up to shield her.

Oghren/Alistair/Sten and Warrior PC? All you could do with that group is manipulate targeting via aggro.

2-H sweep and upgraded War Cry come to mind, though obviously knockdowns are only short-term, and you may not consider them to be CC.

No, FF mages are very easy to use. Enemies have a tendency to form cones - essentially, they will very rarely sorround your tank. If they do, you can forcefield him. If they don't, you can catch them all in a fireball cone.

You do have to be a little careful. I've had problems with the tank being unable to hold aggro if my mage cuts loose with a Fireball early, for instance. Or Leliana with a Scattershot, but that's not FF anyway so there's no reason to fire it early.

As for forcefield, I consider that to be an AI exploit when cast on a friendly.

[FedericoV]

In Exile wrote...

Are you sure it was pushing a button or it was pushing the attack button (i.e. warriors renegerate stamina via hitting enemies)? 

I remember pushing a button. But we should check the old gameplay Q&A thread to be sure. But it would be pretty unblanced and
retarded to allow warriors stamina recharges only because they do their
job hitting enemies. What's the trade-off? At least the rogues have to
score a critical hit wich is not so easy and asks positionig or right
use of skills while mages have to sarifice each kind of action.

Modifié par FedericoV, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:19 .

[In Exile]

FedericoV wrote...

I remember pushing a button. But we should check the old gameplay Q&A thread to be sure. But it would be pretty unblanced and
retarded to allow warriors stamina recharges only because they do their
job hitting enemies. What's the trade-off? At least the rogues have to
score a critical hit wich is not so easy and asks positionig or right
use of skills while mages have to sarifice each kind of action.

It migh be that rogues get a certain amt of stamina back (say, 5% of their total) while mages regen faster and warriors regen only while hitting. So the auto-attack itself allows stamina to regenerate.

[FedericoV]

In Exile wrote...

It migh be that rogues get a certain amt of stamina back (say, 5% of their total) while mages regen faster and warriors regen only while hitting. So the auto-attack itself allows stamina to regenerate.

Well, it could make sense, since warrior are normally the class the relies less on skills but I imagine that we should wait and see (if I have time in the evening, I will check the thread for that piece of info).

[soteria]

Grandmaster Paralyze Rune begs to differ.

You can easily and effectively run an autoattack backstab rogue. I did just so with Zevran.

I routinely run rogues with three paralyze runes on the mainhand weapon. They're great, but they don't give you infinite and instant paralysis on every target; sorry, but that claim is simply false. It's not impossible or even terribly unusual to completely kill an enemy with autoattacks without ever having the paralysis proc... unless maybe you're using some mod that increases the proc frequency.

With Alistar/Warrior PC/Wynne/Leliana, the game is very hard on nightmare. It becomes easy in the late-game, though, once you can pump your warrior PC's stats via gear.

The game always becomes easy around level 10, assuming you're building a decent character. I've played with similar groups (switch Alistair for Sten or Oghren) and didn't have much trouble. Unless you get extremely aggressive, it's really hard for a templar with high dexterity to go down when Wynne is doing the healing.

Ogren/Alistair/Sten and Warrior PC? All you could do with that group is manipulate targeting via aggro.

Again, you overlook the massive amounts of CC warriors are actually capable of. An all-warrior party kills fairly quickly, too. beancounter did an all-warrior group in this thread, and I did a three warrior/rogue group in this thread. Holy Smite is an instant ranged aoe knockdown, 2h sweep is an aoe knockdown, and warcry is an aoe knockdown. With multiple pommel strikes and stunning blows from the 2h warriors, a stun and two more knockdowns from Alistair, and high damage from the PC warrior, the group is surprisingly effective. I would argue that knockdowns are the best CC because they don't suffer from any kind of duration reduction from rank or difficulty or diminishing returns.

I highly recommend checking out those threads for yourself, but what we learned was that in the absence of a healer it's best not to bother with taunt at all. Have the warriors pair off (three's a crowd) and focus on knocking individual enemies down and killing them quickly.

To bring this all back on topic, I don't think it was the case that certain groups were inherently gimped and I hope it won't be the case in DA2. Given the amount of tactical depth available even in an all-warrior group in DA:O, I'm carefully optimistic about what DA2 will be like once warriors and rogues have gotten some more love. I liked the fact that I could take an archer and make an extremely effective tank out of him, too.

[FedericoV]

In Exile wrote...

It migh be that rogues get a certain amt of stamina back (say, 5% of their total) while mages regen faster and warriors regen only while hitting. So the auto-attack itself allows stamina to regenerate.

Thanks to google, I've found the quote I was talking about:

[Peter Thomas]: The subject of stamina regeneration is another issue. We want each class to feel different in how it regains stamina/mana. This system has not been finalized. Currently, Warriors regain stamina through specific ability usage, Rogues through attacks, and Mages through passive regeneration. This is the base method for each class. There are still mana and stamina potions, and giving specific regeneration abilities or equipment to characters can increase their rates and capabilities. The gameplay feel is the Warriors press a button repeatedly to regain stamina, then can unleash their abilities. Rogues attack constantly, punctuating it with abilities. Mages need to be a bit more tactical and
conserve energy for the best time to strike as their mana is constantly replenished. This is the way the system currently works, but will be subject to balancing and testing.

Modifié par FedericoV, 05 novembre 2010 - 08:20 .

[soteria]

Sounds like he means that warriors can use specific attacks to regain stamina. Rogues probably get stamina back from something like Feast of the Fallen.