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[Louis_Cypher]

 

Pacifen wrote...
If this thread is going to turn into a debate about Tali's father, I'd prefer someone start a new thread in the ME2 Campaign Quests and Storyline Forum rather than co-opt this thread. Thank you.

So here we are.  This is a discussion about Rael'Zorah, what he did, and what Shepard and Tali should do about it.  The origin of the debate is here.

The discussion so far:

achwas wrote...

Reaper27 wrote...

mrsph wrote...
Do you really blame Tali for wanting to at least keep her dad from becoming an un-person? Being erased from your people's history is a horrible fate for anyone.

If I was a Quarian it had been my father who had done that, I wouldn't just want his name erased from the records, I'd ask for a pen so I can do it personally. Some things are just unforgivable.

Might be easier than living with his name as a reminder of his deeds and your lineage to everyone else, too.
I wouldn't want to live with the name of a war-criminal in RL, not even by coincidence, and most certainly not as an accomplice in  a cover-up.

Her dad made himself an un-person by his very deeds, not the public awareness of them. And there is a comprehensive amount of guilt towards the innocent scientists involved in the experiments, the crew of the "Alaray" , nevermind the Quarian marines send to investigate.. ...
Or is a crime not a crime because it hasn't been publicly talked about ?

On the other hand, with Shepard never even mentioning what exactly Rael did on the "Alaray" he increases the chances the full story will never get out and reach the Geth. Maybe that is why it is actually a "paragonic" choice to participate in the cover up........ doesn't sound like a shining example of morality though

Louis_Cypher wrote...

Kronner wrote...
But protecting a man who commited genocide is just fine and dandy, because the monster is Tali's father?

 
Now wait a minute, here.

What is it that people think Tali's father actually did?  The worst you could say about him using POWs in weapons testing.  Certainly a war crime, but not genocide, even if you buy the arguments on geth personhood (which I do, but not everyone does, and it's more understandable why quarians wouldn't).  And then he gets too aggressive and careless about testing, leading to his subjects escaping and killing people, which is criminally negligent but not malicious (and hardly unique to him).

And it's not like the war with the geth was all above-board and clean before Rael got involved.  They've targeted civilian populations and used Husk technology to essentially enslave prisoners (including non-combatant captives).  That doesn't excuse the abuse of POWs, but it does put the crime in perspective.

Well, then I guess Jacob's dad should be protected too, right? Oh no..Jacob is actually smart and misson-first guy and approves of the punishment..even death. What Rael Zorah did is wrong and the punsihment is well deserved IMHO.

What happens to Rael'Zorah?  He's killed by the victims of his cruelty.  Which is basically the same thing that happens to Ronald Taylor in 2 out of 3 choices.  And if it comes it, he can probably be posthumously found guilty of treason on the same "evidence" that Tali (potentially) is.

So I'm not seeing how Rael gets off so easy.

Kronner wrote...

Louis_Cypher wrote...
[See above for omitted text]
What happens to Rael'Zorah?  He's killed by the victims of his cruelty.  Which is basically the same thing that happens to Ronald Taylor in 2 out of 3 choices.  And if it comes it, he can probably be posthumously found guilty of treason on the same "evidence" that Tali (potentially) is.

So I'm not seeing how Rael gets off so easy.

He's killed, but that does not mean he is a special case for whom quarian law does not exist. The way I see it he is killed for his incompetence, but the crime he commited is another thing..

mrsph wrote...

Players sort of have the gift of hindsight with Legion. But if you remove him then you realize the geth are an incredibly hostile force that attacks literally anything that goes through the Perseus Veil and never even bothers to communicate with the rest of the galaxy. And also attacked several colonies and nearly doomed the galaxy in the first game. You can't really blame the quarians for trying to find a way to combat them, because from their perspective, the geth are going on a rampage and may try to target them again.


I also wish they handled Legion's recruitment better. Because Shepard looks like a moron (again) when s/he just blindly accepts the word of a machine that has tried to kill him/her a million times over.

And why is that? Because you only know one - quarian - side of the whole story. That is not geth's fault.

[Inquisitor Recon]

The real crime is that Cerberus could have done a better job running his little experiment despite the fact that Cerberus experiments tend to end up with everybody dead.

[Xilizhra]

If I was a Quarian it had been my father who had done that, I wouldn't just want his name erased from the records, I'd ask for a pen so I can do it personally.

But... you don't erase things with a pen.



As for the case itself, truth is the servant of welfare. I believe that everyone is served better if the information is kept quiet.

[dgcatanisiri]

For Tali, it's a knee-jerk reaction. She doesn't want her father wiped away from the fleet's records because he's her father, the man who raised and loved her all her life. Maybe later on, she will realize that he's performed horrible things and should have some kind of punishment. Doesn't she also say that if his name is stricken from their records, all the things he'd accomplished and developed for the fleet would be taken away too? There could be valuable things on the Quarian vessels that he created that they'd lose and potentially weaken the fleet. And would you really want to become known among your people as the daughter of a monster?

The reason hiding the evidence is the paragon choice is because of how you're pointing out that the trial is for political reasons, and it's not about anyone's real guilt or innocence. That's not justice, that's politics. Even the members of the board will point out that they note that you didn't say what your findings on the Alarei were, you just deflect their line of questioning and argue against them. They don't hold it against you, but at least a couple comment on it, so they've got to have an inkling you found something bad but held back for the sake of the fleet overall.

[Pacifien]

I've roleplayed this scenario two ways. For most playthroughs, my Shepard's concern is preparing the crew for the fight against the Collectors. In this case, Shepard demonstrates loyalty to the crew above all else. The decision is a no-brainer, side with Tali.

However, I have one playthrough where I decided to do what I personally would have done in that scenario. And I am personally an awful friend. (People seem to like me in spite of this.) What I see is hidden information from the people about war crimes. I'd totally expose what Rael did to them.

Of course, this debate covers the gamut of various things to consider, so I'll see if I can go ahead and explain my reasoning on many of them.

I happen to treat geth on equal footing to organics -- this inevitably leads to the "are geth living" debate, so I should point out that I have no interest in determining if geth fall under the definition of life as it wouldn't matter to me, they get treated as equals regardless. I also happen to abhor experimentation on organics, so that does transfer to my feelings about what Rael was doing with the geth. It was unethical experimentation.

People point out revealing evidence to the admirals away from the trial, which is somewhat of an option if you tell Han'Gerrol about it. I don't trust the admirals, however. It was an admiral who was conducting the experiments. Two of the admirals are close friends to him. One admiral would be in full agreement with him. Rael's final instructions to Tali are to give the research to Daro'Xen and Han'Gerrol. The admirals in this case let the people down and they need to be exposed for that.

The fact that revealing the evidence fractures the fleet shows how fragile the fleet was before the trial. Now, it's a bit of a metagame to bring up the fleet fractures if you reveal the evidence, so it's not the best argument to me as for why you shouldn't reveal the evidence. In any case, the fleet is stagnating themselves with their stalemate over what to do with their fleet. Chaos might be what they need to finally act. Or it utterly dooms them, but who knows really.

Some might say there's no need to punish Rael since he already paid the ultimate price for his crimes. But in my opinion, this goes beyond the crimes of one man, but demonstrates an underlying feeling about how far some quarians are willing to go to reclaim their homeworld.

Honestly, my reasonings can be viewed as weak, irrational, impulsive. And I feel I should remind people that I did this in one playthrough of many, so to mention it is really a bit of a Devil's Advocate play here. It was simply a playthrough where I didn't take Tali, the quarians, or the geth in any real consideration: it was all about what I would do if I have evidence of war crimes in my hands. You could replace everyone with, say, Samara, the asari, and the raloi just to take out ones loyalties to the three factors in the decision. If it hadn't been Tali, quarians, or the geth involved, does one's opinions on the matter change?

[Kaiser Shepard]

While he is indeed a war criminal, there are greater forces at play. Thus my Shepard and I feel that humbling the Admiralty Board takes precedence over exposing Rael's crimes.

[Pacifien]

Shandepared wrote...
Rael's crime was in disregarding safety protocols to hurry his experiments along.

You know, I'd probably have a much less harsh view of various experiments discovered in ME2 if there was ever any demonstration that the scientific method was properly followed. Sloppy science just offends me.

[Zall]

By saying the truth about Rael'Zorah's experiments you are merely spitting on his corpse. Feeling better? Tali doesn't.

Rael'Zorah is a war criminal, I admit it. But he was no sadistic bastard, and he preferred being erased from the quarian logs so that Tali wouldn't get exiled. Hardest thing for him to cope would be that his daughter has to live with his tainted legacy.

By punishing Rael'Zorah - who is by the way, you know, dead -  you punish Tali. She's not my favourite character, but she clearly does not deserve this.

[AntiChri5]

Yeah, as wrong as it was, it's over.



The dead are dead, and can't be helped. I am willing to go to extreme lengths for my crew, so i cover it up for Tali.

[Moiaussi]

I wish there was some way to really destroy the evidence (which included at least some of Rael's research) and still clear Tali. Never understood the whole 'Shepard please don't tell them' while leaving the evidence alone and thus effectively telling them anyway as soon as they look at it themselves, as Xen does later.

[Zall]

Shandepared wrote...

Zall wrote...

By punishing Rael'Zorah - who is by the way, you know, dead -  you punish Tali. She's not my favourite character, but she clearly does not deserve this.

What Tali deserves? She's just one person. What about dozens (or hundreds) of widowed husbands and wives  amd the orphaned sons and daughters of all the scientists, marines, engineers, and janitors killed on the Alarai? What do they deserve?

Their blood is on Rael's hands.

Will knowing the truth make them feel better? Is that what they deserve, the right to blame a dead man? To some, it might be a comfort. But it is no end in which justice will prevail. Rael has died without passing a trial, and only heaven can reach and judge him.

Being exiled is nightmare for Tali. Having her father declared to a traitor is much much worse.

To be honest, I can't see what you are trying to accomplish. =/

[Pacifien]

Moiaussi wrote...
I wish there was some way to really destroy the evidence (which included at least some of Rael's research) and still clear Tali. Never understood the whole 'Shepard please don't tell them' while leaving the evidence alone and thus effectively telling them anyway as soon as they look at it themselves, as Xen does later.

I do wonder about that, as anyone could have examined the Alerai after they had left, discovered the evidence, and decided it had to be revealed to the public. Perhaps Tali simply didn't want that to happen at her own trial, that it wasn't Shepard (and herself by association) who was the one to do it.

Really, by not revealing the evidence and walking away, Shepard leaves the quarians to decide their own fate in this case. Or I would have bought into that so long as Shepard doesn't plead for the quarians to go one way or the other about their war.

[Pacifien]

Zall wrote...
Will knowing the truth make them feel better? Is that what they deserve, the right to blame a dead man? To some, it might be a comfort. But it is no end in which justice will prevail. Rael has died without passing a trial, and only heaven can reach and judge him.

Being exiled is nightmare for Tali. Having her father declared to a traitor is much much worse.

To be honest, I can't see what you are trying to accomplish. =/

This type of justification for not revealing the evidence kinda pisses me off from a very personal viewpoint that I can't even go into because I'd have to then warn myself about not bringing up real life sociopolitical issues into a gaming forum.

But really, if you believe it was a war crime, does the fact the participants are now dead really mean there's no need to reveal that a war crime took place?

[Xilizhra]

It depends on whether or not it'll do any good to reveal it. Splintering the Fleet is quite a bad thing for everyone involved.

[Nightwriter]

Wow. A lot of what I'm hearing seems to go along the lines of, "Yes, Rael was Satan, but..."

So does everyone think Rael was an outright monster here? Did anyone else just sort of get the impression he was a relatively well-intentioned guy who wanted good things for his people but showed a tragic and unallowable error in judgment resulting from a learned misconception about the geth?

[Pacifien]

Xilizhra wrote...
It depends on whether or not it'll do any good to reveal it. Splintering the Fleet is quite a bad thing for everyone involved.

Since some of that splintered fleet went off to find a world the quarians could colonize, and I feel that's what they should really be doing, it didn't strike me as an overly bad thing. From that perspective. A splintered fleet doesn't do Shepard much good against the Reapers.

Of course, you don't really know the fleet will splinter from revealing the evidence until after the fact.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xil, only via metagaming. And only if you think a united Fleet doing the wrong thing is better. Or that you need the entire fleet to do the same thing.

Splitting up has its advantages. The Quarians who want to can retake the homeworld, while others colonize somewhere else. The species survives. Those not interested in war aren't going to be dragged into it.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 novembre 2010 - 04:48 .

[Pacifien]

Shandepared wrote...
Meta-gaming fool.

No. You know this.

[JaerWolfe]

Zall wrote...

Will knowing the truth make them feel better? Is that what they deserve, the right to blame a dead man? To some, it might be a comfort. But it is no end in which justice will prevail. Rael has died without passing a trial, and only heaven can reach and judge him.



Being exiled is nightmare for Tali. Having her father declared to a traitor is much much worse.



To be honest, I can't see what you are trying to accomplish. =/

They deserve the right to know why their loved ones died. If they want to blame Rael or the Admirals or whoever, I could not care less, but they deserve the right to make that choice for themselves rather than have it be hidden with back door politics.



I reveal the information every time. I find it difficult to accept Tali putting more meaning into her dead father's pride than the grief of the families of those who died.



I also believe that events can change people. Who's to say Jona, learning the truth of his mother's death didn't seek peace with the Geth? Or didn't become the driving force for finding a planet the Fleet could call their own? Or maybe, driven by revenge, he created a weapon that wiped the Geth out once and for all. Any of it could have been directly influenced by knowing how and why his mother died.

[Dean_the_Young]

The whole 'revealing the data being Renegade' thing never made sense to me. The coverup, while sympathetic, was distinctly more 'against the rules', which seems distinctly Renegade to me.



If it was going to be Renegade, you should at least have been able to get use from the data you revealed.