197 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

I'm not sure either how revealing the evidence would necessarily lead to the decimation of the quarians and/or geth, lead to war, undermine Shepard's battle against the Reapers, all other kinds of bad things.

[Kronner]

Collider wrote...

Like I said - Shepard would be giving technology that has the potential to destroy the geth
to the quarians. That's enough to raise alarm and suspect that
revealing the evidence would harm the quarians. Going to war against the
Geth again isn't going to help the quarians, it's going to harm them.

What technology? There is no technology. It backfired and killed every quarian on the ship. Shepard only tells them that Rael tried to do something that is against their own law. Once again, if quarians are so stupid to see that the research Rael did is not gonna help them beat the geth, stupid quarians die, smart make peace with the geth and go back to their homeworld.

There is nothing in the game suggesting that the evidence will cause war.

Nightwriter wrote...

It doesn't matter, you need all the ships you can get, and they have a lot. More than anyone.

Revealing the information will show them Rael made a mistake but was onto something huge.

Whether you like it or not, you are responsible for the consequences of giving them that information.

OK they can be good cannon fodder.

Which has nothing to do with a war against geth.

No, that is just stupid. If I told you that you can kill yourself by jumping into ice cold water and staying there for 30 minutes and you do that..did I kill you? No. You did it yourself.

Modifié par Kronner, 03 novembre 2010 - 05:52 .

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

I'm not sure either how revealing the evidence would necessarily lead to the decimation of the quarians and/or geth, lead to war, undermine Shepard's battle against the Reapers, all other kinds of bad things.

A lot of it comes from the impressions you get when you talk to Xen.

If you don't hand over the evidence, Xen's like, "What happened to the geth doomsday technology? Why didn't you give it to us?"

"Forget about the geth doomsday technology."

"No, I want the geth doomsday technology."

"No you don't. Forget it. It's bad."

"I know it's bad, that's why I want it."

So you get this impression that whatever you hand over to the Admirality Board is tied into the anti-geth technology, which is an engine of war. Rael also says, "Make sure you get this to Xen!"

Xen wants bad things for the geth. Xen is pissed you didn't reveal what you found on the Alarei. This gives you the impression that not giving the evidence to the Admiralty Board is a counter-war move.

[jlb524]

She's crazy. And she's only one Admiral.

[Dave of Canada]

Nightwriter wrote...

Xen wants bad things for the geth. Xen is pissed you didn't reveal what you found on the Alarei. This gives you the impression that not giving the evidence to the Admiralty Board is a counter-war move.

However, she finds it and still muses over the idea of using it. She'll probably have support of 2/3 of the fleet (assuming that each admiral has a 1/3 following but that's just bad since Quib-Quib probably has less supporters) if she presents the idea foward without Shepard suddenly blurting it out.

[ashwind]

jlb524 wrote...

She's crazy. And she's only one Admiral.

Yeah - and she sounds like Morrigan. Hopes she tries something, wanna shoot her badly. 

[jlb524]

Nightwriter wrote...

Xen wants bad things for the geth. Xen is pissed you didn't reveal what you found on the Alarei. This gives you the impression that not giving the evidence to the Admiralty Board is a counter-war move.

So....now the quarians know you are hiding something from them?  That's not good.

[Collider]

What technology? There is no technology.

There was technology. And research. The latter is obvious.



One easy example of the former is indicated by the fact that you can get a shield upgrade based upon Geth shields on the Alarei. In other words, the Quarians studied the geth and developed stronger shield capabilities. Couple that with the research they did and you'd be giving the Quarians another reason to go to war, which is dangerous.

There is nothing in the game suggesting that the evidence will cause war.

There is if you think about it.

1. At the time of the trial, the Admiralty Board is split on whether to go to war. They could easily tip towards war as a result.

2. Legion says that every time the Quarians believed they could win, the Quarians attacked the geth. And lost every time.

3. So you are giving a people who are considering war, something that could help them in the war.

There's really little in the world can compel people to war more than the belief that they will win.



For me it was easy to see that this was the wrong decision.

Not giving the evidence changes nothing. The Quarians are united and not on the warpath yet.

Giving the evidence causes social unrest as one of their admirals had committed a war crime.



When the races of the galaxy need to unite against the Reapers, causing social disorder and chaos is not the right idea by any means.

[Nightwriter]

Kronner wrote...

Which has nothing to do with a war against geth.

No, that is just stupid. If I told you that you can kill yourself by jumping into ice cold water and staying there for 30 minutes and you do that..did I kill you? No. You did it yourself.

Lol. It has EVERYTHING to do with a war with the geth.

Look, what you're essentially telling them is this: "Rael created the ultimate weapon of war, and with it you could reclaim the quarian homeworld." Yes, Rael screwed up... but that weapon's still sitting over there.

And you're being a little shortsighted. There are consequences to your actions. If you give a weapon of war to a war-prone race it is your fault if war breaks out and hurts people.

[Kronner]

Collider wrote...

There was technology. And research. The latter is obvious.

One easy example of the former is indicated by the fact that you can get a shield upgrade based upon Geth shields on the Alarei. In other words, the Quarians studied the geth and developed stronger shield capabilities. Couple that with the research they did and you'd be giving the Quarians another reason to go to war, which is dangerous.

They search the ship regardless. They will find the research anyways. You do not know how much the research actually brings to the table.

Collider wrote...
There is nothing in the game suggesting that the evidence will cause war.
There is if you think about it.
1. At the time of the trial, the Admiralty Board is split on whether to go to war. They could easily tip towards war as a result.
2. Legion says that every time the Quarians believed they could win, the Quarians attacked the geth. And lost every time.
3. So you are giving a people who are considering war, something that could help them in the war.
There's really little in the world can compel people to war more than the belief that they will win.

For me it was easy to see that this was the wrong decision.
Not giving the evidence changes nothing. The Quarians are united and not on the warpath yet.
Giving the evidence causes social unrest as one of their admirals had committed a war crime.

When the races of the galaxy need to unite against the Reapers, causing social disorder and chaos is not the right idea by any means.

OR you are giving them opportunity to acknowledge that what Rael did was wrong and that peace is much better solution. Once again, we do not know what will happen. BUT you can tell them "do not go to war" in any case.

Nightwriter wrote...

Lol. It has EVERYTHING to do with a war with the geth.

Look,
what you're essentially telling them is this: "Rael created the ultimate weapon of war, and with it you could reclaim the quarian homeworld." Yes, Rael screwed up... but that weapon's still sitting over there.

And you're being a little shortsighted. There are consequences to your actions. If you give a weapon of war to a war-prone race it is your fault if war breaks out and hurts people.

Prove that.

All you give to them is evidence that Rael was doing this and that.
They have the ship. They WILL search it. They will find everything Rael left there. Only thing Shepard took was a videorecording. Quarians are master engineers..whatever is on the ship is theirs.

Modifié par Kronner, 03 novembre 2010 - 06:13 .

[Nightwriter]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Xen wants bad things for the geth. Xen is pissed you didn't reveal what you found on the Alarei. This gives you the impression that not giving the evidence to the Admiralty Board is a counter-war move.

However, she finds it and still muses over the idea of using it. She'll probably have support of 2/3 of the fleet (assuming that each admiral has a 1/3 following but that's just bad since Quib-Quib probably has less supporters) if she presents the idea foward without Shepard suddenly blurting it out.

Yeah, I did think that email was a little weird. Did anyone else feel like it's a little OOC for Xen to tip you off like that about her intentions? She seemed so tactful before.

Anyway before that email they give you the impression the only way information gets off the Alarei is through you. If Tali says there was nothing of value on the Alarei, Han'Gerrel says, "I'll take your word for it, kid. Not like I have much choice."

At the time this actually gave me the impression the Alarei was now inaccessible. Then I get Xen's email....

[Collider]

They search the ship regardless. They will find the research anyways. You do not know how much did the research actually brings to the table.

I'm fairly certain that we only know that Xen searches the Alarei if the evidence is withheld.

The point being that revealing the evidence makes them know about the research for sure. Not revealing the evidence means it's possible they will not find out.

OR you are giving them opportunity to acknowledge that what Rael did was wrong and that peace is much better solution. Once again, we do not know what will happen. BUT you can tell them "do not go to war" in any case.

Sure, I can tell them not to go to war, but something actually tangible like technology and research obviously has far more sway than Shepard just saying something. They can acknowledge that what Rael did was wrong without revealing the evidence, lol.

[Dave of Canada]

Nightwriter wrote...

At the time this actually gave me the impression the Alarei was now inaccessible. Then I get Xen's email....

Same, I believed that all the data and info on the Alarei was deleted. The email was just a "wait, what?" moment for me, though it'll probably have no impact on ME3.

[jlb524]

I find it problematic that I should have so little faith in the quarians as a people and their leaders.... I shouldn't have faith that they can deal with the evidence responsibly?  Without going 'Oh, look! New toys to blow up the geth with! Yippee!'

Modifié par jlb524, 03 novembre 2010 - 06:15 .

[Kronner]

Collider wrote...

I'm fairly certain that we only know that Xen searches the Alarei if the evidence is withheld.
The point being that revealing the evidence makes them know about the research for sure. Not revealing the evidence means it's possible they will not find out.

How can you be certain? You get an email from Xen, ok. That does not mean she was the only one who searched the ship.

Collider wrote...
Sure, I can tell them not to go to war, but something actually tangible like technology and research obviously has far more sway than Shepard just saying something. They can acknowledge that what Rael did was wrong without revealing the evidence, lol.

Admirals, yes.

General public, no way - they have no idea what happened unless Shepard tells them the truth.

Note that if Tali's father is outed during the trial, Xen (if spoken to)
will still chastise Shepard for revealing the nature of Rael's work in
public. In this case, it is likely the research will be purged, or at
least be too politically volatile for her to take advantage of.

Modifié par Kronner, 03 novembre 2010 - 06:17 .

[Nightwriter]

Shand, seriously, stop crying "metagaming". It. Is. Annoying.

Secondly, even in my first playthrough, when metagaming was impossible, I could foresee that revealing what Rael was doing - and the technology he had developed - was potentially dangerous.

Why is this hard to understand?

[Xilizhra]

Because it's easily possible to inform the Admiralty after the fact, thus avoiding the public monstrousness-ing of Tali's father while still distributing information. Also, calling the admirals out on the real purpose of the trial, although both sides can do that. In any case, I don't really care what Rael was doing, as I have no intention of encouraging the other admirals to repeat his actions.

[Collider]

How can you be certain? You get an email from Xen, ok. That does not mean she was the only one who searched the ship.

It means that we only know that Xen searched the ship, and we don't know whether the other admirals searched the ship. Simple as that. If you reveal the evidence, the player knows for sure that all of the admirals (as well as the public) are aware of what happened. If you don't reveal the evidence, the player only knows that Xen knows about the evidence.

Admirals, yes.



General public, no way - they have no idea what happened unless Shepard tells them the truth.

If the Quarian public was already aware of the evidence, then it would be nice for them to admit that what Rael did was wrong. But if they don't know already, it doesn't matter, does it? They already view experimentation on sentients as a war crime. That's part of the reason why it's a big deal in the first place - because it's already viewed as something wrong.

Note that if Tali's father is outed during the trial, Xen (if spoken to)

will still chastise Shepard for revealing the nature of Rael's work in

public. In this case, it is likely the research will be purged, or at

least be too politically volatile for her to take advantage of.

That's after the trial decision. We are talking about before the trial decision. If you want to talk about after the trial decision, revealing the evidence causes social unrest and fleet splitting, lol. Which isn't good when the effort against the Reapers would be aided by having races united instead of divided.

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

I find it problematic that I should have so little faith in the quarians as a people and their leaders.... I shouldn't have faith that they can deal with the evidence responsibly?  Without going 'Oh, look! New toys to blow up the geth with! Yippee!'

Lol. Well, I don't think it's really malice or stupidity on their part. I think they want their homeworld back, and they honestly believe the only way they can do that is through hostile means.

In all honesty, I don't blame them for wanting their world back.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

How can you be certain? You get an email from Xen, ok. That does not mean she was the only one who searched the ship.

It means that we only know that Xen searched the ship, and we don't know whether the other admirals searched the ship. Simple as that. If you reveal the evidence, the player knows for sure that all of the admirals (as well as the public) are aware of what happened. If you don't reveal the evidence, the player only knows that Xen knows about the evidence.

See, I think that could potentially be much much worse than just being upfront with the other, more 'sane' admirals from the beggining.  Xen could use the fact that Shepard with-held information from the quarians as leverage for blackmail against the Commander.

Nightwriter wrote...

Lol. Well, I don't think it's really
malice or stupidity on their part. I think they want their homeworld
back, and they honestly believe the only way they can do that is through
hostile means.

In all honesty, I don't blame them for wanting their world back.

Not all of them believe this.

Modifié par jlb524, 03 novembre 2010 - 06:28 .

[Kronner]

Collider wrote...

It means that we only know that Xen searched the ship, and we don't know whether the other admirals searched the ship. Simple as that. If you reveal the evidence, the player knows for sure that all of the admirals (as well as the public) are aware of what happened. If you don't reveal the evidence, the player only knows that Xen knows about the evidence.

So? Admiral Xen is the worst Admiral. If you reveal evidence, she tells you: FU Shepard for making it public, we COULD HAVE continued his research.

Collider wrote...
If the Quarian public was already aware of the evidence, then it would be nice for them to admit that what Rael did was wrong. But if they don't know already, it doesn't matter, does it? They already view experimentation on sentients as a war crime. That's part of the reason why it's a big deal in the first place - because it's already viewed as something wrong.

So you leave them in the dark then..so the only thing public knows is that there was a geth attack.

Collider wrote...
That's after the trial decision. We are talking about before the trial decision. If you want to talk about after the trial decision, revealing the evidence causes social unrest and fleet splitting, lol. Which isn't good when the effort against the Reapers would be aided by having races united instead of divided.

During the trial, not before. And that decision has immediate impact. If you reveal the evidence, Xen is pissed off because it is not possible for her to continue Rael's research. If you do not make it public, she CAN continue the research.

Modifié par Kronner, 03 novembre 2010 - 06:32 .

[Collider]

See, I think that could potentially be much much worse than just being upfront with the other, more 'sane' admirals from the beggining. Xen could use the fact that Shepard with-held information from the quarians as leverage for blackmail against the Commander.

In the same post that I was responding to, there was a quote from the Mass Effect wiki which basically said that Xen doesn't like the evidence being public. So revealing the evidence would be providing detriment to herself and her plans, lol.

[Kronner]

Collider wrote...

So revealing the evidence would be providing detriment to herself and her plans

That is true.

lol<_<

Modifié par Kronner, 03 novembre 2010 - 06:32 .