197 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Shepard lied to the Admiralty Board to cover up a war crime...how do you all think they will feel if they find this out? Will they trust Shepard enough to lend their people to the war effort against the Reapers?

[Pacifien]

Tali admits that what her father did was a war crime. To cover that up is covering up for a war criminal. Since when was a war criminal's death sufficient reason to never reveal a war crime? Seriously, think about that.

Also, by covering up the evidence, you enable Xen to explore the Alarei and gain the research anyway. Only now she can continue the research in secret as the public has not been told anything about what the government was doing behind their backs. Now, the quarians are technically under martial law, so the government working behind the public's back could be deemed doing the dirty work for their own good.

Also, if you wait to tell the admirals outside of the trial, what are you really accomplishing? Rael wanted the admirals to know what he was doing. There's only one admiral who would take that evidence and use it to prevent further research, and the game doesn't give you the option of telling him.

And finally, I'm still of the opinion that revealing the evidence should have been a paragon action, but no one can really agree what defines paragon versus renegade in this game anyway. It's a distasteful paragon action to some because it is about revealing harsh truths, but in my mind, sometimes one's morality should cause some decisions to be more difficult than others. If you are truly paragon, when your morality is tested, do you stick to it or do you relent for the sake of a friend?

The same can be said for Garrus's decision to shoot Sidonis. It's a copout that sticking to the paragon path there doesn't lead toward losing Garrus's loyalty the way you can lose Tali's loyalty. It makes for a tough call: do you stick with your friend or do you let your morality stop you? These are the tough decisions the developers promised that they ultimately fail to deliver.

[Dave of Canada]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

So claiming to never metagame is silly.

I know that we'll most likely be fully capable of defeating Sovereign even if I save the Council, however I put that thought in the back of my mind and still leave them to die to stop Sovereign at any cost. Same thing with the Collector Base, I keep it around even though I know you'll be able to win without it. I just block out any player knowledge and use what I have at my disposal ingame.

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...
I know that.   She could want something else down the road...a favor.

Xen knows Rael did something...Xen knows Shepard covered it up.  If Xen wants Shepard to hand over Legion to her, or aid her in some other way, what do you think she will do if Shepard says 'no'?

Well again, this hypothetical scenario is less likely because revealing that Shepard covered something up (and that she knows about it) would potentially harm her. It's kind of saying "If you don't do x, I'll shoot you in the foot and I'll shoot myself in the foot."

[Dave of Canada]

Pacifien wrote...

These are the tough decisions the developers promised that they ultimately fail to deliver.

Agreed. A lot of these options just felt... forced to give the player loyalty. Zaeed for example, he's been raging for 20 years and you've just cost him his chance of revenge and pointing a gun at his head suddenly makes him loyal? 

[Kronner]

Pacifien wrote...

Tali admits that what her father did was a war crime. To cover that up is covering up for a war criminal. Since when was a war criminal's death sufficient reason to never reveal a war crime? Seriously, think about that.

Also, by covering up the evidence, you enable Xen to explore the Alarei and gain the research anyway. Only now she can continue the research in secret as the public has not been told anything about what the government was doing behind their backs. Now, the quarians are technically under martial law, so the government working behind the public's back could be deemed doing the dirty work for their own good.

Yes, exactly this.

[Giggles_Manically]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

So claiming to never metagame is silly.

I know that we'll most likely be fully capable of defeating Sovereign even if I save the Council, however I put that thought in the back of my mind and still leave them to die to stop Sovereign at any cost. Same thing with the Collector Base, I keep it around even though I know you'll be able to win without it. I just block out any player knowledge and use what I have at my disposal ingame.

There are also reasons to make the opposite choices as well.
Mass Effect does a good job of presenting you with multiple equal ways of doing things as well.

[Pacifien]

[color=rgb(0, 255, 0]Calling anyone's post a waste of space is a no-go for the forums. You are to respect the opinions of others while having a discussion on the forums, even if you don't agree with their opinions. The Site Rules make it clear that civil behavior is to be had here, and following those rules is the price you must pay in order to continue using these forums.[/color]

[Collider]

I don't think it's as simple as "sticking up for your friend" vs. "doing the right thing." I don't think that revealing evidence is the right thing to do, regardless of the opinions of Shepard's squad mates. I won't give ammunition to a war that could destroy a people.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I know that.   She could want something else down the road...a favor.

Xen knows Rael did something...Xen knows Shepard covered it up.  If Xen wants Shepard to hand over Legion to her, or aid her in some other way, what do you think she will do if Shepard says 'no'?

Well again, this hypothetical scenario is less likely because revealing that Shepard covered something up (and that she knows about it) would potentially harm her. It's kind of saying "If you don't do x, I'll shoot you in the foot and I'll shoot myself in the foot."

Why would she be shooting herself?

[Kronner]

Collider wrote...

I don't think it's as simple as "sticking up for your friend" vs. "doing the right thing." I don't think that revealing evidence is the right thing to do, regardless of the opinions of Shepard's squad mates. I won't give ammunition to a war that could destroy a people.

You do just that unless you reveal the evidence. If you do reveal the evidence, it is no longer possible for the quarians to go to war against the geth.

[Babli]

Collider wrote...
I won't give ammunition to a war that could destroy a people.

Especially if we know that TRUE Geth(not Heretics) do not wish to go to war as Legion stated...and that they are cleaning their home planet.

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...
Why would she be shooting herself?

Like I said, Xen says herself that the Admiralty Board knowing about the experiments is detrimental to herself and her plans.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Meta-gaming is never needed nor desired when evaluating the moral choices faced by Shepard and arguing about which choices Shepard should make.

Shand, where does it say this is a non-metaming discussion?

If we wanted to argue what the best decision is from a metagaming perspective, that would be okay. Gamers often discuss what the best course of action is from a global perspective.

But if you want to have a non-metagaming argument, fine. We can do that too. My viewpoint remains the same, just for different reasons.

[JaerWolfe]

Collider wrote...
I don't think it's as simple as "sticking up for your friend" vs. "doing the right thing." I don't think that revealing evidence is the right thing to do, regardless of the opinions of Shepard's squad mates. I won't give ammunition to a war that could destroy a people.

Can you elaborate? I don't think I'm understanding how revealing the evidence leads to war. I understand that it could lead to a split with the Quarians, not necessarily a war. Unless you are saying that revealing the evidence means war with a Geth?

[Dave of Canada]

Collider wrote...

I don't think it's as simple as "sticking up for your friend" vs. "doing the right thing." I don't think that revealing evidence is the right thing to do, regardless of the opinions of Shepard's squad mates. I won't give ammunition to a war that could destroy a people.

Allowing a criminal to remain loved and letting the Alarei be recieved by the admirals (without the public knowing) isn't that much better.

[Xilizhra]

If you are truly paragon, when your morality is tested, do you stick to it or do you relent for the sake of a friend?

See Zaeed. And, come to think of it, Garrus. It's definitely Paragon-y to do the moral thing even if your squadmates disagree. It's simply that revealing the evidence is not sufficiently moral.

[Nightwriter]

Kronner wrote...

I never heard anything like that. The first thing Shepard says after you get back is "go get your ship". How does that imply that it is inaccessible?

We discussed it a few pages back. It's about a comment Han'Gerrel makes.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I actually think this decision was one of the better ones, since it really sets apart those who truly care for Tali as a friend and a squadmate and those who are de-facto people who do things the way their gut wishes it, for which reason I think both ends of the spectrum are perfectly justifiable.

[Collider]

Kronner wrote...

Collider wrote...

I don't think it's as simple as "sticking up for your friend" vs. "doing the right thing." I don't think that revealing evidence is the right thing to do, regardless of the opinions of Shepard's squad mates. I won't give ammunition to a war that could destroy a people.

You do just that unless you reveal the evidence

nope. All Shepard is doing is saying that he didn't find anything, or that Tali is innocent. That is not Shepard giving ammunition, it is Shepard saying that he didn't find anything, and that Tali is innocent.

If you do reveal the evidence, it is no longer possible for the quarians to go to war against the geth.

Still possible. Small groups of people can still go to war, as foolish as it is. The Quarians themselves have done this in their attacks against the Geth even after the Morning War was over. Also, this is still something that happens after the player chooses what to do.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Why would she be shooting herself?

Like I said, Xen says herself that the Admiralty Board knowing about the experiments is detrimental to herself and her plans.

Why?  All they know is that Rael was conducting experiments and Sheaprd hid it...she doesn't have to tell them the full extent of Rael's research if she doesn't want too, or that she's also trying to recreate the research in secret.

[Dave of Canada]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I actually think this decision was one of the better ones, since it really sets apart those who truly care for Tali as a friend and a squadmate and those who are de-facto people who do things the way their gut wishes it, for which reason I think both ends of the spectrum are perfectly justifiable.

It's unfortunate there's a charm and intimidate option.

[Collider]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Collider wrote...

I don't think it's as simple as "sticking up for your friend" vs. "doing the right thing." I don't think that revealing evidence is the right thing to do, regardless of the opinions of Shepard's squad mates. I won't give ammunition to a war that could destroy a people.

Allowing a criminal to remain loved and letting the Alarei be recieved by the admirals (without the public knowing) isn't that much better.

Rael is dead and cannot be loved as a result. They can only love the memory of him. Certainly, letting the Alarei be received by the admirals in general is not perfect, but it's better than them knowing for sure.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I actually think this decision was one of the better ones, since it really sets apart those who truly care for Tali as a friend and a squadmate and those who are de-facto people who do things the way their gut wishes it, for which reason I think both ends of the spectrum are perfectly justifiable.

It's unfortunate there's a charm and intimidate option.

I disagree. It was a very elegant way to get the job done.

[Giggles_Manically]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you are truly paragon, when your morality is tested, do you stick to it or do you relent for the sake of a friend?

See Zaeed. And, come to think of it, Garrus. It's definitely Paragon-y to do the moral thing even if your squadmates disagree. It's simply that revealing the evidence is not sufficiently moral.

Garrus agrees with you though about Sidonis.
He saw him as a pathetic coward, who he didnt want to kill.

Plus he saw that Sidonis was still trying to make amends for what he did.
I do think that Zaeed should not have had a paragon check for his loyalty though.