197 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Well, in these cases, your teammates are able to see that you did the right thing.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Dave of Canada wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I actually think this decision was one of the better ones, since it really sets apart those who truly care for Tali as a friend and a squadmate and those who are de-facto people who do things the way their gut wishes it, for which reason I think both ends of the spectrum are perfectly justifiable.

It's unfortunate there's a charm and intimidate option.

It would have been more dramatic without that, I agree. Still, I simply love what Shepard says if you Charm or intimidate the Admirals. Gives me chills every time I hear it.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 03 novembre 2010 - 07:21 .

[Collider]

JaerWolfe wrote...
Can you elaborate? I don't think I'm understanding how revealing the evidence leads to war.

Pretty simple.
An analogy.
You give the leader of a warlike nation a "kill all of your enemies" button. Giving Ahmadinejad technology or other means that could help him destroy Israel specifically. Is that the right thing to do? Technically, telling Ahmadinejad about this technology would be telling the truth, but it would also possibly be giving them a reason to attack Israel.

Legion states that every time the Quarians believed they could destroy the Geth, the Quarians attacked and failed.

The technology and research on the Alarei was developed specifically to destroy the Geth. The Quarians thinking that they could win against the Geth because they have stronger technology against them = bad - because it would repeat the cycle that Legion mentions.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

I disagree. It was a very elegant way to get the job done.

If I go to the court and start shouting at the judge, I won't get my client a not-guilty charge.

[Giggles_Manically]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I disagree. It was a very elegant way to get the job done.

If I go to the court and start shouting at the judge, I won't get my client a not-guilty charge.

But if you throw enough good guy/badass points at him he will be so awed as to agree with what ever you say.

[Nightwriter]

Uh, there should definitely be both a paragon and renegade way to get a character's loyalty. Don't you think they punish you enough in regard to moral alignment?

So yes, there should be a paragon check for Zaeed. And no, paragoning Sidonis should not result in Garrus loyalty failure. Likewise, you should be able to do a persuade check which gets you Tali's loyalty even if you hand over the data (a fairly high persuade check, or else the decision will be kind of meaningless). 

Also, I definitely value friendship more than altruism. I will totally lie for a friend in certain situations. I'm not a paragon here.

[Dave of Canada]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

But if you throw enough good guy/badass points at him he will be so awed as to agree with what ever you say.

"You will let me sleep with all your women?"
"I FIND THIS MAN DEAD SEXY *bangs hammer*"

[JaerWolfe]

Collider wrote...

JaerWolfe wrote...
Can you elaborate? I don't think I'm understanding how revealing the evidence leads to war.

Pretty simple.
An analogy.
You give the leader of a warlike nation a "kill all of your enemies" button. Giving Ahmadinejad technology or other means that could help him destroy Israel specifically. Is that the right thing to do? Technically, telling Ahmadinejad about this technology would be telling the truth, but it would also possibly be giving them a reason to attack Israel.

Legion states that every time the Quarians believed they could destroy the Geth, the Quarians attacked and failed.

The technology and research on the Alarei was developed specifically to destroy the Geth. The Quarians thinking that they could win against the Geth because they have stronger technology against them = bad - because it would repeat the cycle that Legion mentions.

The technology didn't work, or am I mistaken? By hiding it, the Admirals have the potential to continue experimenting until it does work and thus use it to start a war...or rather, resume conflict. Revealing it acknowledges that it didn't work and more Quarian lives were lost. Potentially creating outrage among the Quarians so that the research is either shut down or carefully monitored. Isn't this a powerful deterent to war rather than a prod toward it?

[Nightwriter]

Collider wrote...

JaerWolfe wrote...
Can you elaborate? I don't think I'm understanding how revealing the evidence leads to war.

Pretty simple.
An analogy.
You give the leader of a warlike nation a "kill all of your enemies" button. Giving Ahmadinejad technology or other means that could help him destroy Israel specifically. Is that the right thing to do? Technically, telling Ahmadinejad about this technology would be telling the truth, but it would also possibly be giving them a reason to attack Israel.

Legion states that every time the Quarians believed they could destroy the Geth, the Quarians attacked and failed.

The technology and research on the Alarei was developed specifically to destroy the Geth. The Quarians thinking that they could win against the Geth because they have stronger technology against them = bad - because it would repeat the cycle that Legion mentions.

That's a pretty good analogy.

[Giggles_Manically]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

But if you throw enough good guy/badass points at him he will be so awed as to agree with what ever you say.

"You will let me sleep with all your women?"
"I FIND THIS MAN DEAD SEXY *bangs hammer*"

"You dont need to see our evidence"
We dont need to see his evidence.
"We can go about our buisness."
Move along, move along.

Who knew Shepard could do jedi mind tricks.

[DoomMech]

Niether choice is a "correct" choice. On the one hand, you're covering a war crime to ensure the loyalty of ONE person. On the other hand, you reveal information that is damaging to the cohesion to an entire people. On the third mutant hand, you later learn that covering up Rael's crimes are all for naught, when Xen sends you an email telling you about all the nasty things that went down on the little ship of horrors.

It all comes down to how you personally feel: Forsake Tali, or help her.



Quick question: how many people revealed the info just to be a bastard?


*raises hand*

[Saremei]

To be utterly honest, I don't think Rael's crime is any worse than someone crashing a car into a tree and all in the car die. It was an accident. I don't care of the accepted quarian law. Tali doesn't want her father to be vilified for a simple mistake with only the best intentions behind it.



And WTF is up with the mentions of genocide? Rael never committed genocide and never would have committed it. You cannot murder computer software.

[Pacifien]

I really don't think revealing the evidence is leading to war. As it is, the quarians are already divided on what they feel about war. The trial simply brings everything to a head and forces action. Quarians are appalled to discover the details of the research. Many quarians finally decide it is time to get serious about colonizing. The war effort is completely hobbled by this.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

JaerWolfe wrote...
Can you elaborate? I don't think I'm understanding how revealing the evidence leads to war.

Pretty simple.
An analogy.
You give the leader of a warlike nation a "kill all of your enemies" button. Giving Ahmadinejad technology or other means that could help him destroy Israel specifically. Is that the right thing to do? Technically, telling Ahmadinejad about this technology would be telling the truth, but it would also possibly be giving them a reason to attack Israel.

Legion states that every time the Quarians believed they could destroy the Geth, the Quarians attacked and failed.

The technology and research on the Alarei was developed specifically to destroy the Geth. The Quarians thinking that they could win against the Geth because they have stronger technology against them = bad - because it would repeat the cycle that Legion mentions.

What's the concern?  That the quarians will destroy the geth or just that they will go to war?  If they are so irrationally warlike, they'll want to go to war with the geth even without having the 'kill your enemies' button...that button just makes it easier.

[Nightwriter]

Pacifien wrote...

I really don't think revealing the evidence is leading to war. As it is, the quarians are already divided on what they feel about war. The trial simply brings everything to a head and forces action. Quarians are appalled to discover the details of the research. Many quarians finally decide it is time to get serious about colonizing. The war effort is completely hobbled by this.

It's more than that. I want Tali to be in a position of power and respect among the quarians. It will help in my efforts against the Reapers.

How will that be affected by the quarians finding out her father was a monstrous war criminal?

[jlb524]

Nightwriter wrote...

It's more than that. I want Tali to be in a position of power and respect among the quarians. It will help in my efforts against the Reapers.

How will that be affected by the quarians finding out her father was a monstrous war criminal?

Just hope they don't find out Shepard and Tali are big liars...

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...
Why?  All they know is that Rael was conducting experiments and Sheaprd hid it...she doesn't have to tell them the full extent of Rael's research if she doesn't want too, or that she's also trying to recreate the research in secret.

"Conducting experiments" by itself is not something the Admiralty is going to care about. That's what scientists do. They conduct experiments.

Telling the Admiralty Board that Shepard was conducted experiments on geth is what they would care about. Naturally, the Admiralty Board would want to find out more than just that. They would want to know
a. How Xen got that information.

The email Shepard receives from her gives me the impression that Xen was essentially going behind the Admiralty Board's back. That would be a strike against her politically, because Xen would be doing something that she was not authorized to do. Shooting herself in the foot.

The email itself says that she would be continuing the experiments. Like I said, for Xen's blackmailing to have any weight, the Admiralty Board would need to know that the experiments were illegal and that Shepard was covering up something illegal. So Xen could be giving evidence that what the email said was true, because the Admiralty Board would know that Xen was aware of the experiments. That coupled with the fact that she openly says that the Geth should be subjugated into a slave race again makes her extremely suspicious. Shooting herself in the foot.

Let's say that she was authorized to search the Alarei. Now, you are talking about a hypothetical scenario that occurs after ME2. Xen would be telling the Admiralty Board about the experiments a great deal of time after her initial investigation, which could make the Admiralty Board suspect that she was withholding the evidence herself. And then they'd wonder what she was doing with that information. See above. She's shooting herself in the foot again.

Revealing the nature of the experiments is counter productive for her desire to continue the experiments in secret, because it would draw attention to herself. Obviously the Admiralty Board is going to want evidence that what she is saying is true.

Telling the Admiralty Board about the experiments is like putting her fingerprint on the crime scene. It draws attention herself and the experiments conducted on the Alarei, which is detrimental to staying in the shadow.

Plus, blackmailing only really has pull if you don't actually do what you are threatening to do. If she reveals the evidence to the admiralty board she doesn't get legion (unless Shepard is a complete moron), and she hurts herself. She would lose her only way to blackmail Shepard, and she would be drawing attention and suspicion.

Modifié par Collider, 03 novembre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

It's more than that. I want Tali to be in a position of power and respect among the quarians. It will help in my efforts against the Reapers.

How will that be affected by the quarians finding out her father was a monstrous war criminal?

Just hope they don't find out Shepard and Tali are big liars...

I don't understand. Liars?

I don't recall telling them that Rael did nothing wrong on board the Alarei. I remember feinting and making a big speech to draw their attention away from the Alarei. When I talk to them afterward, the Admirals make it clear to me that they're aware it was a feint.

Yet they did not clap me in irons.

[Collider]

The technology didn't work, or am I mistaken?

It's not that the technology didn't work, it's that they turned on the Geth and the Geth killed everyone. They did develop some technologies from the experiments, such as the shield technology that was based on geth tech. Having better shields would be useful in a war.

By hiding it, the Admirals have the potential to continue experimenting until it does work and thus use it to start a war...or rather, resume conflict.

They wouldn't know automatically that there was any experiments. Revealing the evidence lets the admirals know there were.

Revealing it acknowledges that it didn't work and more Quarian lives were lost. Potentially creating outrage among the Quarians so that the research is either shut down or carefully monitored. Isn't this a powerful deterent to war rather than a prod toward it?

That's what happens after Shepard makes the decision. Shepard is not omniscient and s/he cannot tell the future.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

"Conducting experiments" by itself is not something the Admiralty is going to care about. That's what scientists do. They conduct experiments.

Telling the Admiralty Board that Shepard was conducted experiments on geth is what they would care about. Naturally, the Admiralty Board would want to find out more than just that. They would want to know
a. How Xen got that information.

The email Shepard receives from her gives me the impression that Xen was essentially going behind the Admiralty Board's back. That would be a strike against her politically, because Xen would be doing something that she was not authorized to do. Shooting herself in the foot.

Of course she would tell them they were experiments on the geth as that would have more weight.  She could easily lie to the Admirals about her reasons for boarding the Alarei, and twist everything that happened there to her own benefit.  That's the concern...I feel Shepard telling the admirals at the trial about this research is different from Xen possibly telling them later and twisting the events however she wants to for her own benefit.  The latter could be bad for Shepard...it might also be bad for Xen, but she may feel she's willing to risk it...to get back at Shepard.

Collider wrote...

The email itself says that she would be continuing the experiments. Like I said, for Xen's blackmailing to have any weight, the Admiralty Board would need to know that the experiments were illegal and that Shepard was covering up something illegal. So Xen could be giving evidence that what the email said was true, because the Admiralty Board would know that Xen was aware of the experiments. That coupled with the fact that she openly says that the Geth should be subjugated into a slave race again makes her extremely suspicious. Shooting herself in the foot.

Her proving that the research conducted by Rael is illegal /= her proving that she herself is currently engaging in it...they'd have to prove it that she is actually continuing it.  The fact that she holds certain views doesn't prove this with out a doubt.  She could lie and say her motives for searching the Alarei were altruistic.

Collider wrote...

Let's say that she was authorized to search the Alarei. Now, you are talking about a hypothetical scenario that occurs after ME2. Xen would be telling the Admiralty Board about the experiments a great deal of time after her initial investigation, which could make the Admiralty Board suspect that she was withholding the evidence herself. And then they'd wonder what she was doing with that information. See above. She's shooting herself in the foot again.

Revealing the nature of the experiments is counter productive for her desire to continue the experiments in secret, because it would draw attention to herself. Obviously the Admiralty Board is going to want evidence.

Telling the Admiralty Board about the experiments is like putting her fingerprint on the crime scene. It draws attention herself and the experiments conducted on the Alarei, which is detrimental to staying in the shadow.

That's the only case where I could see that she wouldn't ever reveal the evidence...if the other admirals know she's searching the Alarei.  Then, she would be shooting herself in the foot.  Do you honestly think she told them?  Even if the other admirals do know what she's doing, she wouldn't know that they know.

Collider wrote...
Plus, blackmailing only really has pull if you don't actually do what you are threatening to do. If she reveals the evidence to the admiralty board she doesn't get legion (unless Shepard is a complete moron), and she hurts herself. She would lose her only way to blackmail Shepard, and she would be drawing attention and suspicion.

Of course, but if she eventually doesn't get what she wants, she might tell the Admiralty Board out of spite. 

[JaerWolfe]

Collider wrote...

It's not that the technology didn't work, it's that they turned on the Geth and the Geth killed everyone. They did develop some technologies from the experiments, such as the shield technology that was based on geth tech. Having better shields would be useful in a war.

The tech is there whether or not you reveal the evidence and will be used regardless of what decision is made. It’s use as a deterrent to war is neutral at best, a prod for over confidence of their abilities in a war on the part of the Quarians at worst.

Collider wrote...

They wouldn't know automatically that there was any experiments. Revealing the evidence lets the admirals know there were.

Perhaps this is the part where we differ. I see the Admirals as knowing about the experiments regardless of what decision is made. I would think a full blown inquiry into the deaths on the Alerai would turn it up fairly quickly and be difficult to hide.

Collider wrote...

That's what happens after Shepard makes the decision. Shepard is not omniscient and s/he cannot tell the future.

Then how does Shepard know that hiding the evidence prevents a war?

[jlb524]

Nightwriter wrote...

I don't understand. Liars?

I don't recall telling them that Rael did nothing wrong on board the Alarei. I remember feinting and making a big speech to draw their attention away from the Alarei. When I talk to them afterward, the Admirals make it clear to me that they're aware it was a feint.

Yet they did not clap me in irons.

OK, 'truth ommitters'. 

[Nightwriter]

And they seem perfectly aware I'm omitting the truth. Han'Gerrel and Shala'Raan even seem to approve of my feint.

[jlb524]

But if they knew what you were omitting, do you think that would make a difference?

[Kronner]

Saremei wrote...

And WTF is up with the mentions of genocide? Rael never committed genocide and never would have committed it. You cannot murder computer software.

geth are sapient beings