197 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Nightwriter wrote...

And they seem perfectly aware I'm omitting the truth. Han'Gerrel and Shala'Raan even seem to approve of my feint.

Still, I don't see that as good pubilicity.

[Nightwriter]

I do. The trial was bogus anyway, and most of them thought so. Xen did. Shala'Raan was rooting for Tali; I helped Tali. Han'Gerrel was rooting for Tali; I helped Tali. Zaal'Koris wanted peace; I urged for peace. I'm not worried about my publicity.

[jlb524]

Nightwriter wrote...

I do. The trial was bogus anyway, and most of them thought so. Xen did. Shala'Raan was rooting for Tali; I helped Tali. Han'Gerrel was rooting for Tali; I helped Tali. Zaal'Koris wanted peace; I urged for peace. I'm not worried about my publicity.

Then, why did Tali insist on hiding the evidence in the first place if it was no big deal?

[Kronner]

Collider wrote...

JaerWolfe wrote...
Can you elaborate? I don't think I'm understanding how revealing the evidence leads to war.

Pretty simple.
An analogy.
You give the leader of a warlike nation a "kill all of your enemies" button. Giving Ahmadinejad technology or other means that could help him destroy Israel specifically. Is that the right thing to do? Technically, telling Ahmadinejad about this technology would be telling the truth, but it would also possibly be giving them a reason to attack Israel.

Legion states that every time the Quarians believed they could destroy the Geth, the Quarians attacked and failed.

The technology and research on the Alarei was developed specifically to destroy the Geth. The Quarians thinking that they could win against the Geth because they have stronger technology against them = bad - because it would repeat the cycle that Legion mentions.

What do you still NOT understand about the fact that revealing the evidence effectively renders the research useless. If you reveal the evidence, no admiral can use that research for potential war. If you do not reveal the evidence you allow them to continue that research in private, behind ordinary quarians' back.
So you got it backwards.

Seriously, what do you NOT understand about that very simple fact? 

[Collider]

The latter could be bad for Shepard...it might also be bad for Xen, but she may feel she's willing to risk it...to get back at Shepard.

I don't really view Xen as this kind of character. She's a practical character. Keeping Shepard on a string is practical, and manipulative, which is her character. Getting rid of the only way she can blackmail is emotional and not manipulative, which is not her character. As long as she has the evidence that Shepard withheld the evidence, she has power. Xen wants power. As long as she has the evidence against Shepard, she has a chance to get Legion. Without it she wouldn't be able to blackmail, and therefore wouldn't be able to get Legion unless Shepard is an idiot and doesn't understand how blackmail works.

Her proving that the research conducted by Rael is illegal /= her proving that she herself is currently engaging in it...they'd have to prove it that she is actually continuing it.
The fact that she holds certain views doesn't prove this with out a doubt. She could lie and say her motives for searching the Alarei were altruistic.

The crux is the argument here is the conglomerate of evidence against her. One big thing is the email. By itself it's not dangerous. But when coupled with the Admiralty Board finding out that Xen knew about the evidence? Bad, very bad.

It's like finding out that a suspect for murder had been looking up "how to kill someone" on google (yes, I've heard of a story like this) or telling someone that they had killed someone. This hypothetical person was racist against the type of person they killed. Even worse when you find out that the suspect had been at the scene of the crime. All of those combined would make this person be investigated more thoroughly by the police, which would be detrimental if they want to keep their murder a secret.

Plus, the email would provide suspicion that Xen knew about the evidence but didn't tell the admiralty board until much later, which would be withholding evidence herself.

Modifié par Collider, 03 novembre 2010 - 08:27 .

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I do. The trial was bogus anyway, and most of them thought so. Xen did. Shala'Raan was rooting for Tali; I helped Tali. Han'Gerrel was rooting for Tali; I helped Tali. Zaal'Koris wanted peace; I urged for peace. I'm not worried about my publicity.

Then, why did Tali insist on hiding the evidence in the first place if it was no big deal?

Obviously Rael's image is a big deal to Tali. I'm not sure I follow.

[Collider]

Seriously, what do you NOT understand about that very simple fact?

I've said this before: you are talking about what happens in-game, after the player makes the decision. Shepard doesn't have the same knowledge as the player does. Shepard doesn't know that Xen would search the Alarei herself or that the fleet would split, or anything else like that. Shepard cannot predict the future.

[jlb524]

Ok, maybe Xen won't spill the beans. That's fine. (though I would still worry about her). The beans can be spilled in other ways, especially if Xen is sneaking off to conduct this research. Another admiral may figure out what's going on. Another random quarian, someone, anyone.



My main point is that if the beans are spilled about what went down on the Alarei, that will look very bad for Shepard/Tali and they may lose the quarian's support, since the two would be deemed untrustworthy.

[Dave of Canada]

Nightwriter wrote...

Obviously Rael's image is a big deal to Tali. I'm not sure I follow.

Then why even exile her if all that matters is how Tali feels?

[Kronner]

Collider wrote...

Seriously, what do you NOT understand about that very simple fact?

I've said this before: you are talking about what happens in-game, after the player makes the decision. Shepard doesn't have the same knowledge as the player does. Shepard doesn't know that Xen would search the Alarei herself or that the fleet would split, or anything else like that. Shepard cannot predict the future.

So you base your opinion of Shepard giving them ammo for war by giving them the evidence on what exactly? You NEVER fully know consequences of your decision until later.

And Shepard knows quarians will search Alarei considering he just cleared that ship and gave it back to them lol.

Modifié par Kronner, 03 novembre 2010 - 08:35 .

[Saremei]

Kronner wrote...

Saremei wrote...

And WTF is up with the mentions of genocide? Rael never committed genocide and never would have committed it. You cannot murder computer software.

geth are sapient beings

Just because the geth programming allows them to act with judgement doesn't elevate them above any other mechanical construct such as computers or powertools.  Software is software. Just bcause someone writes really complex software able to fully comprehend reality as living beings do, it is still just software.

[jlb524]

Nightwriter wrote...

Obviously Rael's image is a big deal to Tali. I'm not sure I follow.

Yeah, she didn't want him branded a war criminal.

He committed war crimes, as defined by the quarian peoples.

Shepard covered that up.  How does that not look bad for Shepard (and Tali)?

[Kronner]

Saremei wrote...

Just because the geth programming allows them to act with judgement doesn't elevate them above any other mechanical construct such as computers or powertools.  Software is software. Just bcause someone writes really complex software able to fully comprehend reality as living beings do, it is still just software.

And humans are just organic hardware + software.
Both geth and humans are sapient. No difference. Unless, of course, you add religious BS into the mix.

[Collider]

Kronner wrote...
So you base your opinion of Shepard giving them ammo for war by giving them the evidence on what exactly?

I've already explained this multiple times.

And Shepard knows quarians will search Alarei considering he just cleared that ship and gave it back to them lol.

No he doesn't. They could blow up the ship like they were going to. It's very possible that they would search the ship, but it's also possible that they could search the ship and not find out about the experiments. Not revealing the evidence gives a chance that they don't find out about that dangerous technology, whereas revealing the evidence means they find out for certain. Neither is particularly good, but I'd go with the choice that I thought before hand would be less likely to lead to war - which would be not be revealing the evidence.

[jlb524]

Why would they blow up the ship after it's been cleared of the geth?

[Kronner]

Collider wrote...

No he doesn't. They could blow up the ship like they were going to. It's very possible that they would search the ship, but it's also possible that they could search the ship and not find out about the experiments. Not revealing the evidence gives a chance that they don't find out about that dangerous technology, whereas revealing the evidence means they find out for certain. Neither is particularly good, but I'd go with the choice that I thought before hand would be less likely to lead to war - which would be not be revealing the evidence.

That is just not true. Shepard specifically says "go get your ship". They do not blow up the ship.

But whatever, after one playthrough you KNOW what is gonna happen  anyways. Revealing the evidence is, in the end, the only way to guarantee no war against the geth. With no IFs attached.

Modifié par Kronner, 03 novembre 2010 - 08:44 .

[Saremei]

Kronner wrote...

Saremei wrote...

Just because the geth programming allows them to act with judgement doesn't elevate them above any other mechanical construct such as computers or powertools.  Software is software. Just bcause someone writes really complex software able to fully comprehend reality as living beings do, it is still just software.

And humans are just organic hardware + software.
Both geth and humans are sapient. No difference. Unless, of course, you add religious BS into the mix.

Incorrect.  Humans and other organics are not analogous to manufactured hardware and software data copies.  Each is a unique creation that is self learning and adapting. Each experience everything different.  Machines such as the geth do not.

[Kronner]

Saremei wrote...

Incorrect.  Humans and other organics are not analogous to manufactured hardware and software data copies.  Each is a unique creation that is self learning and adapting. Each experience everything different.  Machines such as the geth do not.

geth are self learning, adapting (otherwise there would be no heretics). Each and every "geth program" experiences everything differently.

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...
My main point is that if the beans are spilled about what went down on the Alarei, that will look very bad for Shepard/Tali and they may lose the quarian's support, since the two would be deemed untrustworthy.

Well let's look at the alternatives:

1. Reveal the evidence = civil unrest. Quarians not at full strength. Even without metagaming the player can suspect that telling a mass of people and the general public that someone from their government committed war crimes would bring social and political disorder, lol. People have rioted and killed against their governments for far less. Everyone knows that Tali's father was a war criminal, which would tarnish her reputation and how people perceive her.

Ideally, people wouldn't treat her differently because of what father did, but that is not the reality. The sons and daughters of disreputable people are treated differently in society, and most often it's them being treated badly. So Shepard would be associated with this daughter of a war criminal. Same deal - if you're associated with someone disreputable, you will probably be perceived differently, and probably in a negative way.

Not looking too good for Shepard and Tali here.

2. Don't reveal evidence = Quarians at the same strength as before. If you use charm/intimidate/rally, Tali is an exonerated hero and Shepard is perceived as a born leader. Looking pretty good pretty for Shepard in Tali.

So if you reveal the evidence, you're guaranteed to have Tali and Shepard be viewed negatively. If you don't reveal the evidence, you have a great chance for them to be viewed positively and for it to stay that way.

[mineralica]

I don't think that Tali would be hated if quarians will blame her father. She told children of exiled person can return to the Flotilla and didn't tell us anything if they would be hated.

Second thing - if evidence containss an ultimate technology against geth, why don't Tali suggest to use it somehow? She's rather determined in killing geth. Adding to interest of Xen in this research, I can give only one explanation - it was a technology for controlling geth. Rael'Zorah just repeated scenario of Morning War - geth, who were supposed to be slaves, started to show independent behaviour, then there was attempt to terminate them, resulted in termination of quarians

[JaerWolfe]

Collider wrote...

No he doesn't. They could blow up the ship like they were going to. It's very possible that they would search the ship, but it's also possible that they could search the ship and not find out about the experiments. Not revealing the evidence gives a chance that they don't find out about that dangerous technology, whereas revealing the evidence means they find out for certain. Neither is particularly good, but I'd go with the choice that I thought before hand would be less likely to lead to war - which would be not be revealing the evidence.

I'm a bit iffy on no one being aware that experiments were taking place. Wasn't Tali put on trial in the first place for sending live Geth back? What does everyone think she is sending them back for? Is that ever addressed?

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Obviously Rael's image is a big deal to Tali. I'm not sure I follow.

Yeah, she didn't want him branded a war criminal.

He committed war crimes, as defined by the quarian peoples.

Shepard covered that up.  How does that not look bad for Shepard (and Tali)?

Oh okay. Now I get you. Well, it seems it didn't look bad because they're aware I did it and they seemed okay with it.

Why? Your guess is as good as mine. I think it's because I got Tali off, and that's all they saw. They appreciated it. They all acknowledged Tali just got caught up in their political dilemmas.

I actually told Han'Gerrel afterward what Rael did. I just didn't want to do it up in front of everyone because a) it seemed like a bad idea and it would crush Tali.

[Collider]

mineralica wrote...
I don't think that Tali would be hated if quarians will blame her father. She told children of exiled person can return to the Flotilla and didn't tell us anything if they would be hated.

History has proven that people look at children of war criminals or disreputable people in a different way, and most often it is negative.

Second thing - if evidence containss an ultimate technology against geth, why don't Tali suggest to use it somehow? She's rather determined in killing geth.

Well for one thing, Tali and Shepard didn't exactly have time to analyze all of the technology there. What Tali says on the Alarei is basically that it would take an in-depth look (something that requires time that they didn't have) to understand the technology and what the science team discovered. One can't take 30 seconds to look at the technology being developed for a while and know everything about it.

Secondly, Tali opposes warring with the Geth. She says this herself to one of the admirals in her loyalty mission. She says that instead, the quarians should focus on the war against the Reapers.

Modifié par Collider, 03 novembre 2010 - 08:58 .

[Louis_Cypher]

OK, played through the mission each way to get a clear view.



Xen sends the same email message, regardless of your actions at the trial. That's annoying and weird.



It's not at all clear to me which choice minimizes the chance for war. All three admirals (other than Shala'Raan) seem to think that releasing the data harms their position. Xen complains that you've prevented her from continuing the research in secret, Gerrol thinks the war faction in general and himself in particular will be tainted by association with Rael, and Koris says "when the have the galaxy's biggest hammer, some people will go looking for nails" or something to that effect. Xen still expresses confidence that she'll come out ahead, both with the email and if you say her ideas are wrong.



It's weird the way the whole choice is presented. There's no mention or option of destroying the evidence, even the role of Rael, so it seems like it would get out anyway. Xen is initially upset about the research becoming public, but there seems to be at least some real support for the research, and she's arrogant in the end either way (perhaps they want her as an enemy in 3, so don't want to let her get undercut in 2). It seems kind of a hollow choice, all told, which really annoys me because a lot of the mission is very good.

[Cheese Elemental]

Well, in my opinion geth are living and deserve to be treated as such, but don't we all have to make sacrifices for the greater good sometimes?

Right now, that 'greater good' is preventing a terrible war between the quarians and geth. The more allies I have, the better, especially considering I don't intend to roll with Cerberus forever.