197 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

JaerWolfe wrote...
I'm a bit iffy on no one being aware that experiments were taking place.

Scientists conduct experiments. That's not going to surprise anyone. Conducting experiments on Geth though is a war crime and the Admiralty Board did not know about these experiments.

Wasn't Tali put on trial in the first place for sending live Geth back? What does everyone think she is sending them back for? Is that ever addressed?

Not really addressed. Just basically that they suspected that Tali had a hand in the Geth overttaking the Alarei and/or that Tali is a traitor. Of course, the trial itself was not about Tali - they just used Tali as a chess piece.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

Well let's look at the alternatives:

1. Reveal the evidence = civil unrest. Quarians not at full strength. Even without metagaming the player can suspect that telling a mass of people and the general public that someone from their government committed war crimes would bring social and political disorder, lol. People have rioted and killed against their governments for far less. Everyone knows that Tali's father was a war criminal, which would tarnish her reputation and how people perceive her.

Or not.  If the quarian people were satisfied with their government, I doubt they'd try to overthrow it based on finding out about one war crime (which they could just put the blame on Rael anyway).  Now, if great civil unrest already existed, then yes...that could be the straw that would break the camel's back.  But if that's the case, the quarians are already a bad ally, given their internal problems.

Collider wrote...
Ideally, people wouldn't treat her differently because of what father did, but that is not the reality. The sons and daughters of disreputable people are treated differently in society, and most often it's them being treated badly. So Shepard would be associated with this daughter of a war criminal. Same deal - if you're associated with someone disreputable, you will probably be perceived differently, and probably in a negative way.

Not looking too good for Shepard and Tali here.

They may lose some respect (Tali more than Shepard), but I don't think that's as bad as potentially losing trust. 

Collider wrote...

2. Don't reveal evidence = Quarians at the same strength as before. If you use charm/intimidate/rally, Tali is an exonerated hero and Shepard is perceived as a born leader. Looking pretty good pretty for Shepard in Tali.

So if you reveal the evidence, you're guaranteed to have Tali and Shepard be viewed negatively. If you don't reveal the evidence, you have a great chance for them to be viewed positively and for it to stay that way.

Is it worth the risk?  If someone does find out, then Tali and Shepard look 100x worse than if they simply revealed the evidence.  Like I said above, they will some respect perhaps, given Tali's relationship to her father (amongst some people, not all) but that's not nearly as bad as losing their trust.

[Moiaussi]

Saremei wrote...

Incorrect.  Humans and other organics are not analogous to manufactured hardware and software data copies.  Each is a unique creation that is self learning and adapting. Each experience everything different.  Machines such as the geth do not.

Actually according to the codex regarding AI's, AI's with the same programming differ due to quantum differences in the hardware. Note that Geth votes are not unanimous. If your theory was correct, they couldn't be, since every Geth would be identical and thus would come to identical conculsions.

Furthermore, organics can be 'manufactured.' Grunt was and was programmed. Shepard was rebuilt. The concept that carbon based life (which is what 'organic' really means) has a monopoly on sentience is just blind prejudice.

[Collider]

Or not. If the quarian people were satisfied with their government, I doubt they'd try to overthrow it based on finding out about one war crime (which they could just put the blame on Rael anyway).

Civil unrest doesn't always need to result in an attempt to overthrow the government. That doesn't mean that civil unrest is not bad. It promotes disunity which can have it's own political consequences.

They may lose some respect (Tali more than Shepard), but I don't think that's as bad as potentially losing trust.

Is it worse to lose trust (hypothetical scenario you're talking about), or never to be trusted in the first place (reveal evidence)?

Is it worth the risk?

You'll have to decide that for yourself. I would pose the same question for revealing the evidence - is it worth the risk of Tali and Shepard being viewed negatively?

[JaerWolfe]

Collider wrote...
Not really addressed. Just basically that they suspected that Tali had a hand in the Geth overttaking the Alarei and/or that Tali is a traitor. Of course, the trial itself was not about Tali - they just used Tali as a chess piece.

Yes, but a chess piece for what? What was the purpose of the trial from the perspective of the Admiralty Board? What were they trying to accomplish? I know each one had their own agenda, but why did they need to put Tali on trial?
I apologize for the questions, but it's been a while since I played Tali's loyalty mission and I don't remember the particulars.

[jlb524]

How do you lose trust by being honest?

With the civil unrest, if everything is peachy, I doubt finding out about one war criminal will change that.

Modifié par jlb524, 03 novembre 2010 - 09:10 .

[Moiaussi]

jlb524 wrote...

How do you lose trust by being honest?

With the civil unrest, if everything is peachy, I doubt finding out about one war criminal will change that.

People are strange. They ask you to lie for them to prove how trustworthy you are. The theory is that if you are willing to lie for them, you will never lie to them. Strange theory.

[cihimi]

Moiaussi wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

How do you lose trust by being honest?

With the civil unrest, if everything is peachy, I doubt finding out about one war criminal will change that.

People are strange. They ask you to lie for them to prove how trustworthy you are. The theory is that if you are willing to lie for them, you will never lie to them. Strange theory.

It's a concept called Loyalty. For most people, it's hard to comprehend and harder to maintain.

[Moiaussi]

cihimi wrote...

It's a concept called Loyalty. For most people, it's hard to comprehend and harder to maintain.

But if someone is willing to be disloyal to others to seem loyal to you, how can you be sure they will be loyal to you? They have already shown a willingness to be disloyal if the situation calls for it.

[GuardianAngel470]

jlb524 wrote...

How do you lose trust by being honest?

With the civil unrest, if everything is peachy, I doubt finding out about one war criminal will change that.

I killed a man in cold blood.

If that is a true statement, you will still lose trust.

[jlb524]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

How do you lose trust by being honest?

With the civil unrest, if everything is peachy, I doubt finding out about one war criminal will change that.

I killed a man in cold blood.

If that is a true statement, you will still lose trust.

I meant in this situation...you know, the one we are discussing...you are taking it out of context.  Shepard did nothing wrong.

[Fayfel]

Moiaussi wrote...

Actually according to the codex regarding AI's, AI's with the same programming differ due to quantum differences in the hardware. Note that Geth votes are not unanimous. If your theory was correct, they couldn't be, since every Geth would be identical and thus would come to identical conculsions.

Here's a quote from Chris L'Etoile

To add a few facts to the discussion (if anything related to a fictional universe can be considered "fact"):


In the ME milieu, the general consensus is that truly sapient programs can only be achieved by a mix of hardware (a quantum computer, the "brain") and software (programs, the "consciousness"). All Alliance/Council AIs are of the "top-down" model. They are discrete computer systems deliberately and specifically designed by organic scientists to achieve consciousness.


Further, they have to be "raised" to sapience. You can't simply turn on a switch and say, "Hello, HAL, make me a sandwich." Like a child, they must learn to use their bodies and be taught how to think.


There's a ramp-up time, too. The computers that run these programs work millions of times faster than organic thought. If you simply turned an AI bluebox on at full capacity, the nascent mind inside it would at best fail to achieve consciousness. At worst it would be insane from lack of input. (As a crude analogy, imagine a human infant whose parents move so slowly, they can only touch them or speak a word once an hour. From the infant's perspective, there's no one there to talk to, to grab the finger of, to feed or reassure them.) A young AI is actually started a clock speed below that of an organic, and slowly ramped up.


What does all this have to do with geth?


They're something different - a "bottom-up" model of AI. That is, their sapience developed from non-sapient hardware/code, with no known assistance by organic teachers. They weren't designed to become conscious, but they did.

Geth are purely software. Keep in mind that they have different opinions because they were designed to perform different functions.


EDIT - quote acting up

Modifié par Amakiir, 04 novembre 2010 - 01:00 .

[GodWood]

Since I haven't done this mission in ages...

Can someone remind me what warcrimes Rael'Zorah commited?

[Clover Rider]

GodWood wrote...

Since I haven't done this mission in ages...
Can someone remind me what warcrimes Rael'Zorah commited?

He cut open some Geth:innocent:.

[Moiaussi]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I killed a man in cold blood.

If that is a true statement, you will still lose trust.

But lieing about it wouldn't make you trustworthy. It would only make you appear trustworthy to those you lie to. And killing someone in cold blood does not neccessarily reduce trust regardless. It really depends on circumstances, who you killed and why.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 04 novembre 2010 - 09:07 .

[Moiaussi]

Amakiir wrote...

Geth are purely software. Keep in mind that they have different opinions because they were designed to perform different functions.


EDIT - quote acting up

Please re-read what i said and re-read the codex entries. The AI entry states that an AI moved to different otherwise identical hardware will become different based on quantum differences in the hardware. The entry already takes into account the software aspect of AI's.

Furthermore, please re-read entries regarding the origins of the Geth. They were not 'designed for different tasks.' Their complexity kept getting ramped up until they eventually became AI's because they were designed multi-purpose. The platforms have differing specific purposes, but the Geth themselves, the software, was designed multi-purpose.

Regardless, even if you were right about the differences being the different platform purposes, that still points out that the Geth are not all identical. Contrary to the views of the post I was responding to regarding whether the Geth were sentient and/or alive, the Geth are not all anywhere as identical as that post claimed.

[Moiaussi]

GodWood wrote...

Since I haven't done this mission in ages...
Can someone remind me what warcrimes Rael'Zorah commited?

Depends on perspective.

From a Geth and/or outside point of view, he ressurrected Geth just to experiment on them.

From a Quarian point of view, he endangered the entire Migrant fleet. If the Geth had managed to take control of the research vessel they could have done anything from potentially ram one of the main residential vessels to signal their home fleets the migrant fleet's location to thus signalling and hacking drive systems long enough to prevent disengagement. One of the main points to staying migrant is that none of them were sure how the Geth would react if they suddenly became a stationary target again rather than a fleet that could simply disengage.

[Dean_the_Young]

Do the Geth even consider what he did a war crime? Or is it organics anthropomorphizing onto the Geth?

Agreed that he endangered the fleet, but that's less a war crime and more of, well... I hate the word, but incompetence? It doesn't quite fit because he deliberately took the risks.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 04 novembre 2010 - 10:21 .

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Do the Geth even consider what he did a war crime? Or is it organics anthropomorphizing onto the Geth?

Agreed that he endangered the fleet, but that's less a war crime and more of, well... I hate the word, but incompetence? It doesn't quite fit because he deliberately took the risks.

Willful disregard of fleet safety in the pursuit of a political goal? Takes longer to say, though.

I'm not sure the geth understand the concept of "war crime", per se. They would understand an act of hostility, but the term war crime has a heavy emotional charge, don't you think? So I'm not sure they'd grasp it the way we do...

[AntiChri5]

Irresponsibility.

On a collosal scale.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Do the Geth even consider what he did a war crime? Or is it organics anthropomorphizing onto the Geth?

Agreed that he endangered the fleet, but that's less a war crime and more of, well... I hate the word, but incompetence? It doesn't quite fit because he deliberately took the risks.

Willful disregard of fleet safety in the pursuit of a political goal? Takes longer to say, though.

I'm not sure the geth understand the concept of "war crime", per se. They would understand an act of hostility, but the term war crime has a heavy emotional charge, don't you think? So I'm not sure they'd grasp it the way we do...

They don't even have the stigma of brainwashing in the sense that we do. I'm not sure they'd see it as an especially bad 'crime' at all, just another action in the ongoing war.

By Legion's words, I think they understand the general idea of a war crime (going too far in the course of a war), but I don't see why they would perceive the Alarai as one.

[philiposophy]

Whether or not it qualifies as a war crime, it's pretty clear that the quarians disapprove massively of what Rael did. Tali says that he broke laws that predated the Morning war even and would be treated as a monster if the public found out. If you reveal the evidence, he's posthumously stripped of rank.

[Ravensword]

Look at this. Like not reporting a war crime to the admiralty board. Heavy risk, but the priiize.