36 réponses à ce sujet

[SuperFly_2000]

Actually I am swaying towards not using any right now. It is going to be lots of desert....and the default desert tileset is lacking both this and that...even though the tropical tileset could be used to some extent also.

CEP - It is good but too big and a questionmark for quality in most of the content unfortunately. Also there is a questionmark about what is going on....if they are making more releases and so on. Questionmark on new NWNCQ tilesets...are they coming? Questionmark on the KOTOR heads...will they be in? ...and some other questionmarks...

Project Q - It is good but too small still. Questionmark about some of the "overrides" while most are good though. Questionmark about performance. Questionmark about upccoming releases.

Custom tilesets - I never really fell in love in any of them. Sure I know many love Worms and they are ok but still I think there is always somehting lacking when you compare custom tilesets to the default ones... Maxam the same...one of the best...but still...

Of course I have been thinking about the Babylon many times but in the end it always boils down to a battle of if the added content is worth it....



I know this is probably the wrong forum to have this discussion...because I know most of you have  completely different view. That is - the more custom content the better.

[Jez_fr]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...I know this is probably the wrong forum to have this discussion...because I know most of you have  completely different view. That is - the more custom content the better.

Yes, and yes. Besides seems to me you already have made up your mind. If its of use, you can always start your PW without hak, see what happens, and if your community seems favorable add haks later.
The other way around, starting with haks and eventually removing them later is almost impossible to do.
Of course you will loose player attracted by new content, but you'll gain those who don't want to download things.

I don't thing there's a better route, only the one that suits the most (obvsiously the no-hak one).

[olivier leroux]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
I know this is probably the wrong forum to have this discussion...because I know most of you have  completely different view. That is - the more custom content the better.

Is it a discussion? Sounds more like thinking aloud.

Like jez says both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages and you can't please everybody. The important thing is that you have fun building and that you are convinced of your work. So only you yourself can answer what suits your tastes and requirements best.

[TheSpiritedLass]

The important thing is that you have fun building

SO true.



As Jez pointed out, haks are not real forgiving if you use them and try to take them out later. Tilesets in particular are NASTY about that. As in crashing the toolset on load type of nasty.

[_six]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

Custom tilesets - I never really fell in love in any of them. Sure I know many love Worms and they are ok but still I think there is always somehting lacking when you compare custom tilesets to the default ones... Maxam the same...one of the best...but still...

If I'm totally honest, I think if that's what you believe then I'd say no, custom content is not for you.

TheSpiritedLass wrote...

As
Jez pointed out, haks are not real forgiving if you use them and try to
take them out later. Tilesets in particular are NASTY about that. As
in crashing the toolset on load type of nasty.

Hm. Tilesets should only crash the toolset if you try to open an area that uses a tileset you've removed,  which kinda stands to reason. Removing the tileset an area requires, and trying to access that area isn't necessarily the best way to avoid errors. However what is rather more concerning is the amount of ingame crashes you get simply for having areas in the module that use a tileset you've removed. Again the solution is to simply delete areas that require content you haven't got in the module.

Modifié par _six, 03 novembre 2010 - 06:34 .

[TheSpiritedLass]

@Six. Sure, which is pretty nasty, no? Now if you load a map that contains a monster that is no longer in the hak, you just get an invisible monster. Annoying, but it doesn't tank your toolset. *coughs* Not that I've ever done either of those, of course. *innocent whistle* I'm uhhh... just guessing here, yes that is it. *nods several times while trying to keep a straight face*

[TSMDude]

TheSpiritedLass wrote...

@Six. Sure, which is pretty nasty, no? Now if you load a map that contains a monster that is no longer in the hak, you just get an invisible monster. Annoying, but it doesn't tank your toolset. *coughs* Not that I've ever done either of those, of course. *innocent whistle* I'm uhhh... just guessing here, yes that is it. *nods several times while trying to keep a straight face*

Though the crazy weird tileset thingy that someone did with adding then removing the hak was cool as heck...

I know they added it the Vault too.

Here it is;

Rabbit Hole Games: Escher's Labyrinth

It would actually make a great Chaos Plane Type Area.

[SuperFly_2000]

What the lol ... NOW I finally know how to do it! ....hahah

[ehye_khandee]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

Actually I am swaying towards not using any right now.

I too view adding haks as a bit of a hurdle, an impediment to _some_ PLAYERS logging into the server. Aside from the "oh I can't download THAT" crowd's reason, there are more. My _major_ objection to many haks is the fact that some include material from other games and NONE have yet shown me written permission from the original IP's owner. NWN2 is just one example, but KOTOR heads are another, and there are more. I would HATE to get a letter from one of those owners demanding I remove their content from my module. CEP uses NWN2 material since their 2.2 release, that and the sheer bloat of it all makes me shy from it. I may be of a different mind than most, but to my way of thinking the older CEPs were more polished and less crammed-in-at-the-last-minute. For that reason, I'm sticking to CEP2.1 - no odd IP stuff to monkey with and more, I'm compatible with all who have 2.1, 2.2 and 2.3.  

[_six]

TheSpiritedLass wrote...

@Six. Sure, which is pretty nasty, no? Now if you load a map that contains a monster that is no longer in the hak, you just get an invisible monster.

True. I think my point was that it won't do any permanent damage, though, which stands

ehye_khandee wrote...

My _major_ objection to many haks is
the fact that some include material from other games and NONE have yet
shown me written permission from the original IP's owner.

Isn't it a bit disrespectful to generalize and tar hakpaks with that brush, though? I actually share the same feelings as you on that one, which is why for instance I don't use worms' forest or the KotOR heads in my projects, and why Project Q has never included any content from NWN2 or elsewhere (or even from community authors that don't want us to).

On the other hand I very much doubt that anyone would take action against usage of such content. Of course that doesn't equate to moral justification, but aside from one incident with lucasarts I'm pretty sure it's never happened.

Modifié par _six, 03 novembre 2010 - 08:08 .

[TheSpiritedLass]

Touche. I think my point was that it won't do any permanent damage.

Touche right back atcha. *grins*

[ehye_khandee]

_six wrote...

ehye_khandee wrote...

My _major_ objection to many haks is
the fact that some include material from other games and NONE have yet
shown me written permission from the original IP's owner.

Isn't it a bit disrespectful to generalize and tar hakpaks with that brush, though? I actually share the same feelings as you on that one, which is why for instance I don't use worms' forest or the KotOR heads in my projects, and why Project Q has never included any content from NWN2 or elsewhere (or even from community authors that don't want us to).

On the other hand I very much doubt that anyone would take action against usage of such content. Of course that doesn't equate to moral justification, but aside from one incident with lucasarts I'm pretty sure it's never happened.

I don't tar them all with that brush, I merely said 'some' do this. I mean no disparagement to all the folk who use only original material or who vette all the bits they use. I _do_ tend to err on the side of caution; and this is one noose I won't stick my head in. The very fact that it _could_ happen, makes me utterly sure that even tempting fate is not a good idea here. The law is pretty clear on use of material without permission so I avoid all that I find which does such, on a case-by-case basis I make those judgements.

Worms' uses some material from elsewhere ? Is that what you're saying here? Did not know that. Can anyone confirm or deny?

[_six]

ehye_khandee wrote...

Worms' uses some material from elsewhere ? Is that what you're saying here? Did not know that. Can anyone confirm or deny?

A huge amount of NWN2 stuff in there, which is even stated on his vault page IIRC. A lot is based on DLA/CODI/stilgar's stuff, too, which is fairly standard for NWN custom content, though that doesn't really go under the banner of from another game, so is not of any real note   I should point out too that I'm saying that in any kind of disapproving way - most of my own earlier content was entirely hashed together from existing stuff - merely that it's quite surprising when you look at just how little of the CC floating around is actually original.

Oh, and apologies for misreading your original post regarding the hakpaks. *puts glasses back on*

Modifié par _six, 03 novembre 2010 - 08:39 .

[Fester Pot]

HAKs are about all that PW really has going for it. Customization is a big part to attract players considering a PW cannot offer the plot specific story lines and attention to detail that a single player module can offer as every player wants their character to be the focus of attention. Perhaps your vision would be best suited to a single player adventure, full of plot twists, depth and character focus.

FP!

Modifié par Fester Pot, 03 novembre 2010 - 08:25 .

[SuperFly_2000]

ehye_khandee wrote...
I too view adding haks as a bit of a hurdle, an impediment to _some_ PLAYERS logging into the server. Aside from the "oh I can't download THAT" crowd's reason, there are more.

Actually it is not that I see them as a hurdle. It is more because I question if the design is really that good that it compares to the default design of the game...

ehye_khandee wrote...
My _major_ objection to many haks is the fact that some include material from other games and NONE have yet shown me written permission from the original IP's owner. NWN2 is just one example, but KOTOR heads are another, and there are more. I would HATE to get a letter from one of those owners demanding I remove their content from my module. CEP uses NWN2 material since their 2.2 release, that and the sheer bloat of it all makes me shy from it. I may be of a different mind than most, but to my way of thinking the older CEPs were more polished and less crammed-in-at-the-last-minute.

To be blunt I don't care so much about this. If the content is good and the original creators wouldn't OBVIOUSLY have anything against I don't see why not.

ehye_khandee wrote...
For that reason, I'm sticking to CEP2.1 - no odd IP stuff to monkey with and more, I'm compatible with all who have 2.1, 2.2 and 2.3.  

For me personally CEP 2.3 was a HUGE step forward compared to anything they had before that and this was the first time I actually started thinking to use CEP for building...

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 03 novembre 2010 - 08:29 .

[Pstemarie]

*smacks head on his desk and wonders "why?"*

[SuperFly_2000]

Why what?

[TSMDude]

Pstemarie wrote...

*smacks head on his desk and wonders "why?"*

Pstemarie is from the Project Q and is someone who does not agree with the glut of code inside the CEP. I am not saying this thought is wrong or right. I am just pointing this out. I know for a fact the respect is had on both sides and this is more or less just a difference of veiw as Pstemarie has pointed out and is not meant to be seen as a disrespect by either team.

I happen to like CEP very much but over the years it has become more of a Great taste, less filling argument.

See here for refference;

It really is an old argument and to be honest something not worth rehashing I hope as it did drive a wedge at one point in the Community.  That is the NWN Community and not the so called named xfire guild one.

I happen to use Project Qs stuff in small modules I run for our PnP Type groups but in our PW we use CEP 2.3. Both are good and both have thier places and if somehow both could just combine themsleves into one it would be terrfic. Until then though you will see this as clearly defined lines.

Though if truth be told, people should only truly dislike the Green Bay Packers and Lebron James.

Modifié par TSMDude, 06 novembre 2010 - 05:54 .

[Pstemarie]

@Superfly

Why would anyone conceive of building a PW or module for NWN without custom content when so much CC is available that takes the game to a level so far above anything that its developers originally conceived?

Modifié par Pstemarie, 06 novembre 2010 - 05:59 .

[olivier leroux]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
It is more because I question if the design is really that good that it compares to the default design of the game...

I guess that's what SuperFly means when he refers to most of us having a complete different view than him. There are several acceptable reasons for not using haks and of course taste differs but the perception that the default design is superior to most if not all custom content created by community members over the years is something I always find puzzling and that I can in no way relate to. Someone must have an extreme, most likely nostalgic love for the original NWN package from 2002 to not see the grandeur in the works of CODI or DLA or six and all the others. And btw, at least since patch 1.69 even the pure 'vanilla' NWN is 'tainted' by such 'inadequate' custom content And who knows what else they would have put into the game if they hadn't stopped supporting it ...

Modifié par olivier leroux, 06 novembre 2010 - 05:43 .

[Pstemarie]

olivier leroux wrote...

but the perception that the default design is superior to most if not all custom content created by community members over the years is something I always find puzzling and that I can in no way relate to.

I'll second that

[TSMDude]

I never said you did not respect them. All I did was point out somethign you yourself said that you did not agree with the glut of code which you stated at one point a while back. I also pointed out this was not right nor wrong but just a difference of view and not one worth rehashing. It was not a argument maker and just that...a different view is all.

Thats all.

I also spoke that I respect BOTH groups equally. I assume still that you do too. And did not sya you did not. I am sorry if you felt I was saying you did not. I will edit my orginal statement to reflect that for you as I would not presume you disrespected them at all.

Not sure why you are being so defensive as all I did was point out a rationale you used a while back. I did not say it mean nor contriving. Nor am I seeking a fight.

Sorry if you took it that way but I do indeed stand by my words.

Modifié par TSMDude, 06 novembre 2010 - 06:01 .

[Pstemarie]

Sorry, rough week - got the flu, makes me more touchy than normal. Been looking over your PW thread - nice work :thumbs:

Edited my previous post - sometimes its better to let things slide

Modifié par Pstemarie, 06 novembre 2010 - 06:00 .

[TSMDude]

Pstemarie wrote...

Sorry, rough week - got the flu, makes me more touchy than normal. Been looking over your PW thread - nice work :thumbs:

Edited my previous post - sometimes its better to let things slide

Thank you and no worries at all. The Internet is greta for sharing info and yet horrible for emotions. Maybe SpiritLass will make you some chicken soup or better yet, dragon soup....

[Tyndrel]

I also suffered the same sort of dilemma, though for different reasons. I actually like far too much of the CC available but, not being a tech wizard, I am not sure what is compatible with what. 

It seems that folks on opposite sides of this philosophical discussion do not seem to understand the thoughts of those on the other side of the fence, Those who support haks do not seem to comprehend the difficulties for those who do not understand these things (or that this lack of understanding even exists) while those who favour the use of a single compilation hak or no hak at all are convinced that they will not have any players if they first have to pass a series of technological hurdles.

I well remember the first time I installed a hak (a very early version of CEP) I was convinced that opening one of those "sacred" folders on my hard-drive would, at best, cause the game to never work again and may even cause the entire computer to implode causing a tear in the space time continuum. Needless to say, I'm still here and I now have many gigs worth of hak goodness on that drive but, as a builder, I am still unsure what will work with what or how to adjust things to be compatible.

My plan for my current project is a two stage world, the first (introductory and lower levels will use CEP only while planar travel will pass the player through to a second server with loads of CC treats (particularly tilesets), assuming that by then some kindly supernatural tech-savy being has explained to me slowly and in words of few syllables how to make them all play nicely together.