20 réponses à ce sujet

[Teleq]

Hello,

I'm starting a project centered around automatically generating NPCs with advanced behavior for given locations, and I need some help choosing the toolset to do this; input from people with experience in the DA:O, NWN and NWN2 toolsets would be appreciated (those are the toolsets I'm considering at the moment).

From what I gather, the NWN toolset is simple, too simple perhaps; will the scripting language allow me to randomly generate NPCs with generated schedules, behavior patterns and so on? On the other hand, it's perfect for building maps really quickly with its tiles, premade buildings, etc. I worry that if I pick the DA:O toolset (which seems to be very advanced), I might just spend stupid amounts of time creating maps and buildings and having to tweak NPC appearances and so on, which I really don't care about that much. I'm afraid the customizability might be a time sink; the whole map and world and appearances are just secondary. 

I also threw NWN2 in there but I don't know anything about it, and I'm afraid I don't have the time to learn 3 different toolsets in depth just for the sake of comparison.

Does anyone have any advice on which toolset to use for my project? Thanks a lot.

[Obadiah]

Dragon Age doesn't have a day/night cycle the way NWN 1 and 2 have, so that may be a problem if you're trying to set up a realistic schedule with sleep and work and such.

[Proleric]

Level design is much quicker in NWN (unless you're content to reuse existing level art in DAO). The NWN artwork is somewhat dated and inflexible, but if you can live with that, NWN wins hands down for your purposes.

Building an NPC takes about the same time in NWN and DAO. There's no need to spend time on face morphs, because DAO comes with a vast number of stock heads. DAO NPCs look much better, but NWN has a wider selection of clothing and weapons.

Scripting capability is fairly similar. NWN supports multiplayer and has integral heartbeat events. DAO has more ready-made ambient animations and configurable features (also, conversations and cutscenes are much superior, but perhaps that's not a factor for you).

[Teleq]

Obadiah wrote...

Dragon Age doesn't have a day/night cycle
the way NWN 1 and 2 have, so that may be a problem if you're trying to
set up a realistic schedule with sleep and work and such.

Some concept of time is definitely important, even if it's not a proper day/night cycle, since NPC behavior will be based on schedules; does this mean DA:O is completely out? All I really need is a clock.

Proleric1 wrote...

Level design is much quicker in NWN (unless you're content to reuse existing level art in DAO). The NWN artwork is somewhat dated and inflexible, but if you can live with that, NWN wins hands down for your purposes.

Building an NPC takes about the same time in NWN and DAO. There's no need to spend time on face morphs, because DAO comes with a vast number of stock heads. DAO NPCs look much better, but NWN has a wider selection of clothing and weapons.

Scripting capability is fairly similar. NWN supports multiplayer and has integral heartbeat events. DAO has more ready-made ambient animations and configurable features (also, conversations and cutscenes are much superior, but perhaps that's not a factor for you).

Cutscenes are not a factor, but conversations might be; how exactly are they superior?

Thanks for the help.

Modifié par Teleq, 04 novembre 2010 - 10:29 .

[TimelordDC]

Teleq wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Dragon Age doesn't have a day/night cycle
the way NWN 1 and 2 have, so that may be a problem if you're trying to
set up a realistic schedule with sleep and work and such.

Some concept of time is definitely important, even if it's not a proper day/night cycle, since NPC behavior will be based on schedules; does this mean DA:O is completely out? All I really need is a clock.

You do have a clock and you can reference it through scripting. You can also achieve a semblance of time passing by manipulating atmospheric effects

Teleq wrote...

Proleric1 wrote...

Level design is much quicker in NWN (unless you're content to reuse existing level art in DAO). The NWN artwork is somewhat dated and inflexible, but if you can live with that, NWN wins hands down for your purposes.

Building an NPC takes about the same time in NWN and DAO. There's no need to spend time on face morphs, because DAO comes with a vast number of stock heads. DAO NPCs look much better, but NWN has a wider selection of clothing and weapons.

Scripting capability is fairly similar. NWN supports multiplayer and has integral heartbeat events. DAO has more ready-made ambient animations and configurable features (also, conversations and cutscenes are much superior, but perhaps that's not a factor for you).

Cutscenes are not a factor, but conversations might be; how exactly are they superior?

Thanks for the help.

Well, you do have some custom levels submitted - as part of the Community Settlement Contest, some levels released by builders (eg: Tombs of the Undead) and I suspect many more custom modules will also release their level source once they are released.

Conversations are superior in the sense that they can be made more cinematic, with the whole conversation or individual lines covnerted to cutscenes. They also use stages which gives you more control over cameras and actions. DA:O lacks tag references in conversations - you will have to end up duplicating lines and using plots [for example, to reference a gender or race]

[-Semper-]

Teleq wrote...

Cutscenes are not a factor, but conversations might be; how exactly are they superior?

that's crap

in nwn/nwn2 conversations are 2 universes above da:o's stripped down dialogues. in da:o you are running into limits the whole time. there are limits for characters, dialogue options and onscreen presentation. the only thing da:o is superior with are the cutscenes.

in nwn2 you can write tons of text, hundreds of dialogue options, you are able to choose between 2 presentation modes (cinematic and old school conversation), the integration of scripts is far more flexible, there are many tokens and the dnd rules come with lots of social skills (bluff, intimidate, diplomacy and so on) ready to use. also the creation and handling of custom perks is by far more utilized.

if you are going for complex behavior and heavy social skill usage there's no way around nwn/nwn2. i can't see how da:o is even able to deliver the same content.

Modifié par -Semper-, 04 novembre 2010 - 04:44 .

[Mooglator]

Actually, although it warns you about character length when putting together dialogues, you can export and it'll still work absolutely fine =)

[-Semper-]

Mooglator wrote...

Actually, although it warns you about character length when putting together dialogues, you can export and it'll still work absolutely fine =)

yes, that works for another 20 characters. after this there is an hardcoded limit and your line will fade outside your monitor... it's a limitation. the hardcoded maximum of six options available also sucks. if the thread author can live with it, then it's fine - but the statement that da:o's dialogue system is superior to nwn(2) is simply a false one

Modifié par -Semper-, 04 novembre 2010 - 05:31 .

[Mooglator]

Really? When I was doing dialogues for BGR, we have some player lines around 80 characters long, found one that was 78 which flags up in the toolset as being too long, but will still export for us. But the limit on options does kinda suck =(

[-Semper-]

your dialogues will always export. if your lines are too long they will be cut at the edge of your monitor and there is no way to display it right. means you can write a line with 200 characters but half of your textbox will be lost

[AmstradHero]

-Semper- wrote...

Teleq wrote...

Cutscenes are not a factor, but conversations might be; how exactly are they superior?

that's crap

in nwn/nwn2 conversations are 2 universes above da:o's stripped down dialogues. in da:o you are running into limits the whole time. there are limits for characters, dialogue options and onscreen presentation. the only thing da:o is superior with are the cutscenes.

in nwn2 you can write tons of text, hundreds of dialogue options, you are able to choose between 2 presentation modes (cinematic and old school conversation), the integration of scripts is far more flexible, there are many tokens and the dnd rules come with lots of social skills (bluff, intimidate, diplomacy and so on) ready to use. also the creation and handling of custom perks is by far more utilized.

if you are going for complex behavior and heavy social skill usage there's no way around nwn/nwn2. i can't see how da:o is even able to deliver the same content.

I respectfully disagree. I didn't like NWN1's dialogue style at all. An annoyingly small dialogue window, the ability to break out of it by walkting away or hitting escape at any time (leading to a whole raft of nightmares in terms of plot progression) made it horrible.

NWN2 offered solutions to most of these problems, and in terms of pure text delivery it is pretty good. For pure text delivery, I probably still have to argue that the old infinity engine is better still, but that's another argument altogether. However, dialogue windows are still not big enough, and unvoiced letterbox dialogue either results in static NPCs or the potential to accidentally skip dialogue by advancing just after a new line appears.

DAO's dialogue is the most cinematic and presentable to the audience in that it best allows for visual cues to accompany and enhance the delivery of the dialogue. Character and facial animations are dramatically improved, and helps convey the meaning and tone of the dialogue without words. Without voice work, it is static like NWN2, but with a smaller word count, but without the threat of accidental line skipping.

DAO is less suited to verbose dialogue, and tends to force a more concise and/or interactive dialogue style to keep the player engaged. NWN and NWN2 were more capable of delivering the "wall-o-text" style of dialogue, and it could be argued that they suffered slightly because of it.  Similarly it could be argued that DAO didn't have enough dialogue content because every single line had to be voiced.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 05 novembre 2010 - 02:05 .

[Obadiah]

For unvoiced conversations, I'd rather the box dialog from NWN which allowed you to present text with a paragraph like presentation. Using the cinematic presentation for that just seems like huge waste of space to me.



The cinematic presentation in DA:O is better than NWN2 though, and the full lip syncs certainly beat the cheezy lip flappers.

[-Semper-]

AmstradHero wrote...

I respectfully disagree. I didn't like NWN1's dialogue style at all. An annoyingly small dialogue window, the ability to break out of it by walkting away or hitting escape at any time (leading to a whole raft of nightmares in terms of plot progression) made it horrible. NWN2 offered solutions to most of these problems, and in terms of pure text delivery it is pretty good

and there's absolutely nothing to argue against because the presentation depends on personal taste. at least in nwn2 there are 2 forms of presentation available by default. yes, the cinematics in nwn2 are a bit stiff and can't beat da:o's cutscenes^^

but that's about presentation and not the dialogue system in general. the system introduced in da:o is very limited and stripped down and there is absolutely nothing you can alter with mods because of the hardcoding. on top there are absolutely no social skills in da:o and there also will never be because you have to create a whole custom branch of skills just for that and nobody would invest a point there

nwn2 offers all this by default. also there's the option to easily create custom feats which will grant another plus to dialogues. in da:o there are only achievements with no story influence and you have to rescript all this which is likely impossible - with the gui it's also not doable.

to come back to the point which system is better for dialogues: if your dialogues are more like a cutscene with little influence and branching by the player then da:o suits you well. if your dialogues are huge with lots of branches and heavy skill usage then there is no way around nwn2

Modifié par -Semper-, 05 novembre 2010 - 01:47 .

[0x30A88]

-Semper- wrote...

Mooglator wrote...

Actually, although it warns you about character length when putting together dialogues, you can export and it'll still work absolutely fine =)

yes, that works for another 20 characters. after this there is an hardcoded limit and your line will fade outside your monitor... it's a limitation. the hardcoded maximum of six options available also sucks. if the thread author can live with it, then it's fine - but the statement that da:o's dialogue system is superior to nwn(2) is simply a false one

Why not simply use the same cheap trick as Bioware, which is to have a empty player dialogue between them, the game will skip the (contenue) automatically if it's voiced, but leave a "(contenue)" when it's not, nice for slow readers.

[AmstradHero]

-Semper- wrote...
but that's about presentation and not the dialogue system in general. the system introduced in da:o is very limited and stripped down and there is absolutely nothing you can alter with mods because of the hardcoding. on top there are absolutely no social skills in da:o and there also will never be because you have to create a whole custom branch of skills just for that and nobody would invest a point there

nwn2 offers all this by default. also there's the option to easily create custom feats which will grant another plus to dialogues. in da:o there are only achievements with no story influence and you have to rescript all this which is likely impossible - with the gui it's also not doable.

to come back to the point which system is better for dialogues: if your dialogues are more like a cutscene with little influence and branching by the player then da:o suits you well. if your dialogues are huge with lots of branches and heavy skill usage then there is no way around nwn2

But skill usage has nothing to do with dialogue design, it's a ruleset mechanic. DAO only has coercion by default rather than the raft of skills that NWN1/2 have, but there is nothing to prevent modders from having other skill checks in their dialogues. The ability to have additional skills or the like is possible in DAO, it's just that the easiest way to implement it is in the form of a plot.  All that said, how many NWN2 mods actually used skill checks? How many used anything apart from diplomacy, intimidate and bluff?

I don't disagree that NWN2 has the best inbuilt support for skill usage and branching within dialogues.  The large complement of skills and feats along with parameter passing makes it more accessible than DAO, and significantly better than NWN1.  Having to create a new script for every single function, variable check/increment is horrible, and makes NWN1 quickly turn into a nightmare. It also features the dialogue "conversation node link" to eliminate repeat copy-linking of player responses. As for DAO not supporting more than 6 player response... I think there could be a case to be argued that if you've got more than that, then your dialogue should be rewritten.

But there is no difference between NWN2 and DAO in terms of how easy it to create branching dialogue, and I don't see how it's possible to argue otherwise. It's more than in DAO those branches are more likely to be centred around a player's choice rather than how they've chosen to develop their character's skills. As much as I love skill usage in NWN2 (and supported it to the nth degree in Fate of a City), isn't it better for a character to actively choose how to progress a conversation through their choices rather than passively by the character development mechanic, where they might not even be aware that they could need those skills within the game?

Regardless, I 'd assess the benefits and drawbacks of each as:
Cons:
NWN1: Requires many many scripts, small dialogue window, player can break out of conversations unexpectedly.
NWN2: Stiff cinematic style conversations
DAO: Text limits, limited inbuilt skill repetoire.

Pros:
NWN1: Can support lots of text, large skill/feat repetoire.
NWN2: Can support text box and cinematic style dialogue, large amounts of text, parameter passing for scripts, node and question node linking, large skill/feat repetoire.
DAO: Best cinematic experience and easy VO integration, node linking, best integration with journal entries.

[JasonNH]

AmstradHero wrote...
But there is no difference between NWN2 and DAO in terms of how easy it to create branching dialogue, and I don't see how it's possible to argue otherwise.

If you include NWN2's ability to have multiple conditional checks logically AND/OR'd together, I would say that is a significant improvement over DA for creating branching dialogue.

[Obadiah]

JasonNH wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...
But there is no difference between NWN2 and DAO in terms of how easy it to create branching dialogue, and I don't see how it's possible to argue otherwise.

If you include NWN2's ability to have multiple conditional checks logically AND/OR'd together, I would say that is a significant improvement over DA for creating branching dialogue.

Can't argue with that. When I first saw the options I was restricted to in the DA:O conversation (plot flag or a single script) I wanted to kick the toolset.

[AmstradHero]

Very true. That is a fair call, and I remember being similarly frustrated when I made the transition to DAO.  But it is possible to get around this with defined flags and additional nodes with conditionals.  I'd rate NWN2 as the most powerful in terms of dialogue writing, but I'd take DAO over NWN1 any day of the week.

So for what the OP sounds like he wants to do, I'd say NWN2 all the way. I might also point him to my NWN2 dynamic ambient population system. It's not terribly user friendly for those who aren't savvy with scripting, and I know it could do with an architecture re-design to make the code cleaner... but it does handle some aspects of character spawning and movement with day/night cycles.

[AndarianTD]

Obadiah wrote...

JasonNH wrote...

If you include NWN2's ability to have multiple conditional checks logically AND/OR'd together, I would say that is a significant improvement over DA for creating branching dialogue.

Can't argue with that. When I first saw the options I was restricted to in the DA:O conversation (plot flag or a single script) I wanted to kick the toolset.

*grins* For the record I gave the Bioware folks an earful on these issues at the DA Builder's Event last summer. That included passing parameters to scripts, multiple scripts on a conversation node, and especially the "length restriction" on dialogue lines in DA. I'll never forget the look on their faces when I compared the system unfavorably to NWN2 ("Why can't you pass parameters to scripts? NWN2 does it.")

I haven't had time to look at the current version of the DA toolset recently, but I think that AmstradHero's right that there are ways to get around most of this. I ran headlong onto the line length restriction when I was writing dialog for our "Magic Cat" demo module, and got around it by rewriting the conversation to break it up into shorter pieces. We tested the longer ones and discovered (at least at that time) that the warning about lines being too long was just a warning; but the text would start to over-run over the graphics rendering area in-game, which was undesirable.

We talked about it a bit, and the conclusion I came to was that the DA system was designed around the needs of voicing and an emphasis on short and somewhat terse dialog. That was very different from the style that many NWN and NWN2 modders had adopted, including the more "literary" writing-based style that I personally had developed. That was the kind of feedback they were looking for from the event, although I don't know how much they could or would have been willing to try to do about it at that stage of development.

When it comes to writing dialog, I think that NWN2 has the best and most flexible system of the three. That said, once you get the hang of using the plot system, the easy integration of plot-status checks that DA allows is quite a convenience; but it does force you to think carefully ahead of time about the design of your plot variables. The single condition checking and lack of parameter passing makes complex dialog writing in NWN1 quite a challenge, although there are a number of techniques to "kludge around it" (such as using variables to store parameters for script calls).

Modifié par AndarianTD, 06 novembre 2010 - 03:03 .

[Shallina]

When you are making things with NWN2, you sometime really wish you were using DAO and have some of the new feature.



When you are making things with DAO, sometime you wonder why they forgot half the stuff....



When choosing from those 2 toolsets you need to do it from the missing feature, and see wich one will give you the less trouble for what you want to do.

[Teleq]

Thanks for the input guys, I'll be going with the NWN2 toolset for now.

AmstradHero wrote...

I might also point him to my NWN2 dynamic ambient population system. It's not terribly user friendly for those who aren't savvy with scripting, and I know it could do with an architecture re-design to make the code cleaner... but it does handle some aspects of character spawning and movement with day/night cycles.

This looks extremely relevant, thanks for the link.

Modifié par Teleq, 10 novembre 2010 - 09:37 .