142 réponses à ce sujet

[Inquisitor Recon]

Yeah I saved the data. The krogan are badass. We need them as shock troops.

[anmiro]

As a Paragon this is always the choice I struggle with. I think what the Salarians did was right. Genophage is not genocide its birth control. The Salarians saved the Galaxy from a very bloody war with the Krogans.

[Isaidlunch]

How could the Council react to the Krogan curing the genophage?  They can't just start culling the Krogan outright.

And yes you're right that their past actions doesn't 100% mean they'll start another rebellion, but given that most of them still have an incredibly hostile/violent nature there is a high chance they might do so and in my personal opinion it's too high of a risk. I don't believe they've yet reached the point where they can be seriously considered as a Council race or anything other than a threat.

I would love to cure the genophage as the last thing I'd want is for the Krogan to go extinct. But at this point of time I think it would do more harm than good. Once Wrex gets firm control over the Krogan then I would do so, since I think that Wrex is exactly what the Krogans need and under his control they can evolve as a race. But any sooner than that and the Krogan clans would split again and we'd see dangerous clans come into power like the one in Mordin's loyalty mission.

Modifié par Kazanth, 03 novembre 2010 - 11:01 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Shand has the right of it.



Wrex is good for the Krogan because Wrex introduces reforms. But the primary reason anyone listens to him is the value of the females and Krogan breeding. The genophage has become the stick by which Wrex beats Krogan civilization into line. Remove the stick, no one has to fall into line like that again.



This isn't to say that Wrex would necessarily lose influence over the Krogan Hoarde: the implication so far is that he who cures the genophage will get the greatest hoarde to rally behind them. Wrex could lead them to conquest.



But reform?





Unless Mass Effect goes through a weird refusal to acknowledge demographics, the genophage cure won't allow a new army to grow up in time for the Reapers. It won't provide instant great numbers. It will undermine Wrex's reforms, meaning you have a lot of nasty Krogan again.





Destroy the Cure.

[hooahguy]

What if the Genophage would be cured to fight the Reapers?

[Marzillius]

I don't cure the genophage because of what the Krogan will do after the whole Reaper thing is over. They spread Varren across the galaxy, they destroy the ecosystems of the planets they colonize and they are in general a very destructive species. About as destructive as Humanity is right now IRL, only less subtle.

I look more at the long-term effects.

Modifié par Marzillius, 04 novembre 2010 - 12:06 .

[Zan51]

philiposophy wrote...

I think what ought not to be forgotten is that we don't have anything that might cure the genophage yet. Maelon's data impressed Mordin in how much he had done, but it was still a long way off a cure.

It is not at all certain that whether the genophage is cured is something that will happen within the time frame of Shepard's trilogy.

^This. There is NOT a cure for the genophage yet. You cannot decide to "cure it." What you took from Maelon, or destroyed, was his research, which Mordin tells you is years from being a cure still.

What is also forgotten is that the Genophage is only birth control for a highly aggressive race that breeds like rabbits and lives to 1,000 years old!

Look calmly at their world and "culture" while on Tuchanka. Listen to what they themselves tell you about it - how they constantly destroy anything they build because if it can be destroyed, it is not yet the apex of their "culture".
Their idea of culture is designed around killing - anyone not in their clan. Grunt gives you it in an encapsulated form when he tells you he hopes to piut his clan against you someday as a supreme compliment to your skills! He wants to kill you. All that matters to Krogans is fighting and destroying.

And you want them to freely breed like rabbits, have access to advanced space travel and go anywhere they want to do this? I'm on the first ship outta your universe! It's not a Paragon decision, it's insane!

[Tranceptor]

Destroy the data. The Krogan are dangerous.

Never trust anything that has more testicles than you.

Modifié par Tranceptor, 04 novembre 2010 - 12:10 .

[Isaidlunch]

Zan51 wrote...

What is also forgotten is that the Genophage is only birth control for a highly aggressive race that breeds like rabbits and lives to 1,000 years old!

After a little research on the wiki, it seems that you're right, that any possiblity of extinction would be because of the Krogans themselves and their aggressive nature and not the genophage. If the Krogans evolve as a race then there would be no need for a genophage cure.

[hooahguy]

Tranceptor wrote...

Never trust anything that has more testicles than you.

I like that advice. 

[Tranceptor]

hooahguy wrote...

Tranceptor wrote...

Never trust anything that has more testicles than you.

I like that advice. 

Yeah, I'm like the Ann Landers of the BioWare forums.  

[Zan51]

Kazanth wrote...

Zan51 wrote...

What is also forgotten is that the Genophage is only birth control for a highly aggressive race that breeds like rabbits and lives to 1,000 years old!

After a little research on the wiki, it seems that you're right, that any possiblity of extinction would be because of the Krogans themselves and their aggressive nature and not the genophage. If the Krogans evolve as a race then there would be no need for a genophage cure.

What scupperd that was the other 3 races, or one of them, (Turian, Salarian or Asari) Uplifting them to a space faring race to fight the Rachni menace. That stopped them evolving to find their own way of coping with their aggressiveness as a species, coupled with the high birth rate meant to replace the high numbers lost in internecine wars.
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Krogan_Rebellions  Good article here.

[Big I]

Zan51 wrote...

philiposophy wrote...

I think what ought not to be forgotten is that we don't have anything that might cure the genophage yet. Maelon's data impressed Mordin in how much he had done, but it was still a long way off a cure.

It is not at all certain that whether the genophage is cured is something that will happen within the time frame of Shepard's trilogy.

^This. There is NOT a cure for the genophage yet. You cannot decide to "cure it." What you took from Maelon, or destroyed, was his research, which Mordin tells you is years from being a cure still.

What is also forgotten is that the Genophage is only birth control for a highly aggressive race that breeds like rabbits and lives to 1,000 years old!

Look calmly at their world and "culture" while on Tuchanka. Listen to what they themselves tell you about it - how they constantly destroy anything they build because if it can be destroyed, it is not yet the apex of their "culture".
Their idea of culture is designed around killing - anyone not in their clan. Grunt gives you it in an encapsulated form when he tells you he hopes to piut his clan against you someday as a supreme compliment to your skills! He wants to kill you. All that matters to Krogans is fighting and destroying.

And you want them to freely breed like rabbits, have access to advanced space travel and go anywhere they want to do this? I'm on the first ship outta your universe! It's not a Paragon decision, it's insane!

It's not birth control, it causes females to miscarry. Setting aside the psychological effects of constant miscarriages while seeking to have children for the moment (and the way that the genophage incentives a view of women where they are valued solely for their ability to have children) the idea of one side of a war imposing limited fertility rates by  means of miscarriage upon the other is disgusting, whatever the justification.


What you hear in game about krogan culture comes after 1500 years of cultural decline as a result of the genophage, and comes from a) a shaman seeking to put the best spin on his people's culture (as he tells you in e-mail), and someone (Grunt) programmed by a madman (Okeer). They're not all like that; take Char from Illium, or the mechanic from the camp.


The genophage is destroying krogan culture. Across two games we're told that krogans have no hope for the future because the genophage removes from krogan the idea that their species will survive. You can't then take the result of the genophage (krogan nihlism and brutality) and say that it's a justification for the genophage.

[Big I]

Zan51 wrote...


What scupperd that was the other 3 races, or one of them, (Turian, Salarian or Asari) Uplifting them to a space faring race to fight the Rachni menace. That stopped them evolving to find their own way of coping with their aggressiveness as a species, coupled with the high birth rate meant to replace the high numbers lost in internecine wars.
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Krogan_Rebellions  Good article here.

The ME2 codex entry on blood rage actually says they evolved to be more aggresive after they nuked themselves, and when the Salarians found them they'd been in a dark age for 2000 years. Not much cultural fine tuning going on.


As for uplift as a concept, it doesn't have to end badly, look at the drell. The problems came in the way the krogan were uplifted; not as a people, but as expendable shock troops against the rachni.

[Uber Rod]

Nightwriter wrote...

If you cure the genophage Wrex isn't going to lose power. He's a strong leader. That's why he's in power. Not because there is no genophage cure.

Grunt can't cure the genophage. Okeer didn't design him for that purpose. He in fact designed Grunt to completely ignore the genophage altogether. 

If you cure the genophage, neither Grunt or Wrex will lose importance. Now how do you see the situation?

So Grunt being designed to ignore the genophage...

What does that even mean?

[Epic777]

 hang on this is a work in progress cure not a full cure right?

[Tranceptor]

Epic777 wrote...

 hang on this is a work in progress cure not a full cure right?

work in progress.

[CommanderSheperd117]

Think of it this way: The Krogan have a billion people each as strong as 4 or 5 Turians or Humans. This leaves them as perfect candidates for a counter-assault on the Reapers from the ground OR as shock troopers to repel an invasion. As for Grunt and Wrex, well, they would be Generals leading the Krogan. Grunt might even be the perfect speciment to develop an army of Krogan clones. A super-soldier with the strength of five regular Krogan, the knowledge of the most powerful warlords, and the survivability of an armored tank. Picture a hundred thousand of those versus an army of husks. Shepard would need an army since I doubt the final mission would be him standing there on the Normandy giving orders without ANY type of combat. I also personally recommend saving the Rachni Queen and rewriting the Geth Heretics. I want as many allies as possible, however unlikely they may be.

[Epic777]

I am critical of the 2nd genophage, were the krogan preparing to attack?Do the krogans have the industry needed to go to war?Are ALL krogan violet?



I say cure it.

[DPSSOC]

LookingGlass93 wrote...
Furthermore, just because the Rebellions happened once doesn't mean they'll happen again.

Yes, yes it does.  The Rebellions happened because the Krogan were removed from their natural environment and as such had nothing to check their birthrate.  Without the natural hazards of Tuchanka, coupled with their technological leap forward, Krogan mortality rates would have plumetted.  So the Krogan population explodes, faster rate of growth than they've ever seen.

Now this wouldn't be a problem if there were still environmental limitations.  Any given environment has a limit to how many people it can support, when you try to push the edges of those limits mortality rates go up (lack of resources, disease, etc.) checking the population.  The population then responds in one of three ways; they either accept their limitations and adjust behaviour, develop technology/techniques to extend the limitations of their environment, or they continue pushing, reach critical mass, and suffer mass starvation and widespread disease leading to a massive population drop.

However since the Krogan have access to interstellar travel the entire galaxy becomes the limits of their environment (meaning it's essentially limitless).  When they push the limits of one world they just expand to another.  Eventually this means they're going to run in to competition for worlds which means war.  The Krogan Rebellions were an inevitability, the genophage was designed as a means to compensate for the fact the Krogan population was, for all intents and purposes, unchecked.  Social change and technological development are a response to limitations, the genophage was the only way the Citadel races could impose limits to try and encourage change among the Krogan.

Think of it like this, can you name a single animal that has been moved to an environment where it has no natural predators or competitors and hasn't gotten out of hand?

[Whatever42]

The Krogan use war as population control. They live 1000 years but yet breed like rabbits. Given their population pressures with the removal of the genophage they will HAVE to go to war. It would be inevitable.



Since the genophage, krogan now care about their children. They are creating more sophisticated political structures. They are evolving into a race that can co-exist peacefully in the galactic community. Remove the genophage and you destroy the krogan.

[Epic777]

Modifié par Epic777, 04 novembre 2010 - 01:55 .

[Epic777]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The Krogan use war as population control. They live 1000 years but yet breed like rabbits. Given their population pressures with the removal of the genophage they will HAVE to go to war. It would be inevitable. 

Since the genophage, krogan now care about their children. They are creating more sophisticated political structures. They are evolving into a race that can co-exist peacefully in the galactic community. Remove the genophage and you destroy the krogan.

I disagree, if the krogan become united and had  sophisticated political structures, I doubt highly they would forgive the council races for the genophage. I will be surprised if the will join forces to fight the reapers. Plus would you ever want a united krogan state,.....? The genophage is pandora box, what was unleashed will never simply be put behind.

[Whatever42]

Epic777 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The Krogan use war as population control. They live 1000 years but yet breed like rabbits. Given their population pressures with the removal of the genophage they will HAVE to go to war. It would be inevitable. 

Since the genophage, krogan now care about their children. They are creating more sophisticated political structures. They are evolving into a race that can co-exist peacefully in the galactic community. Remove the genophage and you destroy the krogan.

I disagree, if the krogan become united and had  sophisticated political structures, I doubt highly they would forgive the council races for the genophage. I will be surprised if the will join forces to fight the reapers. Plus would you ever want a united krogan state,.....? The genophage is pandora box, what was unleashed will never simply be put behind.

Actually, I think the krogan have already dealt with it. Wrex has. The general hostility of the other krogan is certainly better than a horde that MUST constantly war. Will they help with the reapers? Again, Wrex will help humanity, I believe. Cure the genophage and you esstentially cut the legs out from under Wrex and in the ensuing chaos, half the horde will probably side with the reapers.

The genophage brings stability. Removing it creates chaos and uncertainity and inevitable brutal war. Curing it just so you hope they fight the reapers is no better than what the Salarians originally did to the krogan.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Uber Rod wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

If you cure the genophage Wrex isn't going to lose power. He's a strong leader. That's why he's in power. Not because there is no genophage cure.

Grunt can't cure the genophage. Okeer didn't design him for that purpose. He in fact designed Grunt to completely ignore the genophage altogether. 

If you cure the genophage, neither Grunt or Wrex will lose importance. Now how do you see the situation?

So Grunt being designed to ignore the genophage...

What does that even mean?

It's what Warlord Okeer says about Grunt when you get the chance to talk to Okeer. He says something along the lines of insulting the enemy the worst way possible, by ignoring them. Essentially, if pure krogan can be genetically engineered and grown, then the genophage no longer hinders the population growth of the krogan.