142 réponses à ce sujet

[Epic777]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The Krogan use war as population control. They live 1000 years but yet breed like rabbits. Given their population pressures with the removal of the genophage they will HAVE to go to war. It would be inevitable. 

Since the genophage, krogan now care about their children. They are creating more sophisticated political structures. They are evolving into a race that can co-exist peacefully in the galactic community. Remove the genophage and you destroy the krogan.

I disagree, if the krogan become united and had  sophisticated political structures, I doubt highly they would forgive the council races for the genophage. I will be surprised if the will join forces to fight the reapers. Plus would you ever want a united krogan state,.....? The genophage is pandora box, what was unleashed will never simply be put behind.

Actually, I think the krogan have already dealt with it. Wrex has. The general hostility of the other krogan is certainly better than a horde that MUST constantly war. Will they help with the reapers? Again, Wrex will help humanity, I believe. Cure the genophage and you esstentially cut the legs out from under Wrex and in the ensuing chaos, half the horde will probably side with the reapers.

The genophage brings stability. Removing it creates chaos and uncertainity and inevitable brutal war. Curing it just so you hope they fight the reapers is no better than what the Salarians originally did to the krogan.

Wrex doesn't like salarians/Turians or at least he didn't in me1 and even he mentions in me2 he doesn't usually allow aliens to do business on Tuchanka. The shadow broker mentions krogan pay alot for ex STG members (if you take mordin). Hell the clanspeaker for clan Weyrloc is motivated to war because of all the stillborns caused by the genophage. Just listen to the krogans talk about the turians.  Everything me1 + me2 shows so far the krogan are not about to "forget" the effects of the genophage and those who imposed it.

[Epic777]

mrsph wrote...

I destroyed it on my canon run. The krogan just simply cannot co-exist with the other species if they breed like homicidal rabbits. Even Wrex won't be able to control them forever (he'll die eventually)

Then KILL them all, if nothing will ever change the krogan forget genophage go full genophage

[Big I]

DPSSOC wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...
Furthermore, just because the Rebellions happened once doesn't mean they'll happen again.

Yes, yes it does.  The Rebellions happened because the Krogan were removed from their natural environment and as such had nothing to check their birthrate.  Without the natural hazards of Tuchanka, coupled with their technological leap forward, Krogan mortality rates would have plumetted.  So the Krogan population explodes, faster rate of growth than they've ever seen.

?

This describes every intelligent species. In RL it's why the global population has grown so large. That doesn't mean that every species with an expanding population will go to war.


The Rebellions were more a result of Citadel politics than krogan biology. It was the salarians and the asari that found and trained the krogan for use against the rachni. After the Rachni Wars it was they who allowed the initial unchecked expansion of the krogan, expansion in such a way that it re-inforced the militaristic mindset and power structures they had given the krogan. And when krogan militarism lead to war, it was they who were unable to deal with the situation due to their relatively small militaries.


That sort of thing could never happen again. The Council is wary of the krogan now, and would never allow krogan colonisation to happen without taking safeguards against a resurgent warlord culture (e.g. limited colonisation opportunities, monitored settlements, etc). Furthermore, the Rebellions happened before the turians or the Alliance were a part of the Council. The Council now possess the military might to check the krogan, especially now when there is no formal krogan military.


In the face of these social pressures, the krogan would be forced to adopt policies and practices that mitigated their high natural birthrate.

[DPSSOC]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...
Furthermore, just because the Rebellions happened once doesn't mean they'll happen again.

Yes, yes it does.  The Rebellions happened because the Krogan were removed from their natural environment and as such had nothing to check their birthrate.  Without the natural hazards of Tuchanka, coupled with their technological leap forward, Krogan mortality rates would have plumetted.  So the Krogan population explodes, faster rate of growth than they've ever seen.

This describes every intelligent species. In RL it's why the global population has grown so large. That doesn't mean that every species with an expanding population will go to war.

When the expansion is happening at the rate of the Krogan yes it does.  Let me put this to you in a Saw fashion.  Let's say that you and I have both been poisoned, we have 2 hours to live.  Now there is a single vial of antidote and the only way to survive is to drink all of it.  So we both need the antidote and we can't share so what will we resort to?  War, we will fight to the death over that little bottle because survival instinct kicks in; same with the Krogan.  They may, at first, simply expand to uninhabited worlds, but eventually they're going to run out of places to go.  That means they're going to have to start taking worlds if they want to survive.

LookingGlass93 wrote...
The Rebellions were more a result of Citadel politics than krogan biology. It was the salarians and the asari that found and trained the krogan for use against the rachni. After the Rachni Wars it was they who allowed the initial unchecked expansion of the krogan, expansion in such a way that it re-inforced the militaristic mindset and power structures they had given the krogan. And when krogan militarism lead to war, it was they who were unable to deal with the situation due to their relatively small militaries.

You say this like the Council took Ewoks and turned them into Rancors (if you'll pardon my inner nerd).  The Krogan are who they've always been, our trip to Tuchanka teaches us that.  The Krogan were locked in an endless cycle of destruction and regrowth when the Salarians rose them up.  The Krogan weren't just chosen for their biology they were chosen because thanks to their culture they were quite literally bred for war.

Any attempt by the Council to check Krogan expansion would have just brought war sooner rather than later.  Look at the Krogan and tell me you believe they quietly go sit in the corner if you told them, "No you can`t do that."  The genophage was ultimately the only option because it provided a check that required the Krogan to elevate themselves above their nature to get past.  It wasn't something that could be shot, blown up, or beaten to the ground it required them to stop and think about what was necessary to preserve their species.

LookingGlass93 wrote...
That sort of thing could never happen again. The Council is wary of the krogan now, and would never allow krogan colonisation to happen without taking safeguards against a resurgent warlord culture (e.g. limited colonisation opportunities, monitored settlements, etc).

 
Again how do you stop the Krogan from colonizing worlds without resorting to military conflict?  What are you going to do capture every Krogan vessel heading for an uninhabitted world and tow it back to the nearest colony?  Or are you just going to quarantine them to certain worlds like the Yahg, never allowing them to leave until you decide on a good place to put them?

LookingGlass93 wrote...
Furthermore, the Rebellions happened before the turians or the Alliance were a part of the Council. The Council now possess the military might to check the krogan, especially now when there is no formal krogan military.

And are you willing to commit to what that means?  Endless repetitions of the same cycle of Attack, Defeat, Rebuild until the Krogan win or the Council races get tired of putting down these uprisings and decide to just wipe them out.  Also what's stopping a Krogan exodus to the Terminus?  What's keeping them from just leaving, a few at a time, and heading to Omega or Illium and next thing you know there are no Krogan on Tuchanka, or any other Council world, and in a few generations they come, the Krogan Empire who've been building warships and gathering their might beyond the sight of the Council.

LookingGlass93 wrote...
In the face of these social pressures, the krogan would be forced to adopt policies and practices that mitigated their high natural birthrate.

No they wouldn't, for the same reason they didn't durring the Rebellions.  The Krogan, without the genophage, can afford to just keep throwing soldiers at us again, and again, and again, until we're dead.  And that's what they'll do, they'll come at us because that's what they know and there's nothing keeping them from just throwing generation after generation at us.  The genophage makes each Krogan generation too valuable to waste on endless conflict, and that's the only thing keeping them at bay.

[Epic777]

^^ If the krogan an simply adapt out of a genophage and nothing will ever change them why not go full out genocide?

[DPSSOC]

But that's the thing they can't. They adapted to it once and the STG corrected the imbalance. The Krogan need something, as any species does, to make them change, to give them a reason to change. Any kind of application of force will just be met with violence, they'll just fight against any outside attempt to control them. The genophage is something they can't fight, can't attack, and that means they must change to deal with it if they wish to survive.



Uplifting the Krogan essentially destroyed any limits on their ability to expand that couldn't be dealt with in the time honoured Krogan tradition, and as such they had no reason to change. I'm not trying to say they can't change I'm just saying they won't until something makes them.

[Epic777]

DPSSOC wrote...

But that's the thing they can't. They adapted to it once and the STG corrected the imbalance. The Krogan need something, as any species does, to make them change, to give them a reason to change. Any kind of application of force will just be met with violence, they'll just fight against any outside attempt to control them. The genophage is something they can't fight, can't attack, and that means they must change to deal with it if they wish to survive.

Uplifting the Krogan essentially destroyed any limits on their ability to expand that couldn't be dealt with in the time honoured Krogan tradition, and as such they had no reason to change. I'm not trying to say they can't change I'm just saying they won't until something makes them.

I am not in favor of the 2nd genophage because it makes the same mistake of the salarians uplifting the krogan: disrupting a cultural evolution, let the krogan adapt to a growing population if they are preparing to go to war, then strike. How will the krogan have evolved without interfering? Who knows? Would they be less agressive? No idea. Eventually the krogan culture has to change by themselves through their own evolution  not because of artificial means. 
 

[Hoki]

I almost had to kill Wrex because we we had to stop saren from curing the genophage, I'm pretty F'in sure Wrex wants it cured.



My two favorite squad mates are krogans, they ain't so bad, I'll def cure the genophage.

[Zan51]

Wrex turned down Maelon's offer to cure the genophage, do not forget that! Only Clan Weyloc agreed to it. So don't be too ready to assume Wrex would accept a cure at all. Right now, the genophage is letting him restructure the whole clan and warrior outlook in that they band together and share the females. Instead of allowing the slaughtering of the women and kids from a beaten clan, now Wrex takes them into his clan! This is a massive change for the good.
Curing the genophage WHEN it could be done, and remember you do NOT have a cure, only the beginnings of research for one that will take years to produce, will destroy all the ground that Wrex has gained. And it is unlikely to come in time to help the galaxy against the Reapers anyway.

Modifié par Zan51, 04 novembre 2010 - 07:16 .

[Big I]

DPSSOC wrote...


When the expansion is happening at the rate of the Krogan yes it does.  Let me put this to you in a Saw fashion.  Let's say that you and I have both been poisoned, we have 2 hours to live.  Now there is a single vial of antidote and the only way to survive is to drink all of it.  So we both need the antidote and we can't share so what will we resort to?  War, we will fight to the death over that little bottle because survival instinct kicks in; same with the Krogan.  They may, at first, simply expand to uninhabited worlds, but eventually they're going to run out of places to go.  That means they're going to have to start taking worlds if they want to survive.


You say this like the Council took Ewoks and turned them into Rancors (if you'll pardon my inner nerd).  The Krogan are who they've always been, our trip to Tuchanka teaches us that.  The Krogan were locked in an endless cycle of destruction and regrowth when the Salarians rose them up.  The Krogan weren't just chosen for their biology they were chosen because thanks to their culture they were quite literally bred for war.

LookingGlass93 wrote...
In the face of these social pressures, the krogan would be forced to adopt policies and practices that mitigated their high natural birthrate.

No they wouldn't, for the same reason they didn't durring the Rebellions.  The Krogan, without the genophage, can afford to just keep throwing soldiers at us again, and again, and again, until we're dead.  And that's what they'll do, they'll come at us because that's what they know and there's nothing keeping them from just throwing generation after generation at us.  The genophage makes each Krogan generation too valuable to waste on endless conflict, and that's the only thing keeping them at bay.

1) Your Saw analogy is misplaced. The galaxy is really, really big, filled with lots of world that are habitable but are unclaimed. It's the reason that humans have managed to get so many colonies over thirty years even though everyone else has had thousands of years to colonise them. Then you have worlds that can be terraformed to habitability, settlements on non-habitable worlds or in space (stations and such), and the fact that krogan can survive a wider range of environments that others, giving them more options. As long as there's a big enough disincentive to go to war (i.e. the Citadel fleets) over occupied planets, they won't do it.


2) The krogan are genetically predisposed to aggression, not to war. Their version of dialogue is to headbutt an opponent, but that doesn't mean they're indiscriminate killers. Wrex isn't, nor are the krogan you meet at the camp, on the Citadel, or Illium. If krogan aggression manifests differently from person to person then the differences between them are probably a result of social factors.


The krogan have had two civilisations; the one they had before they nuked themselves and the one they had after their uplift, and between the two was an extended period of societal collapse. We know nothing about their first civilisation, and their second was conceived during and geared towards fighting the rachni. Based on that, there is little evidence to say that they're inherently self-destructive.


3. The genophage doesn't make the krogan value life more, it removes any incentiive for them to value life at all. Krogan don't think their species will survive, and it warps their thinking, making them desperate and reckless. In 1500 years Wrex is the only leader to have attempted reform. It even says so in the codex; most krogan follow their own version of eat, drink and be merry, because they have no hope for the future. The genophage is destorying the krogan.


EDIT: Your concern about a Terminus empire is a valid concern, but then that's the problem of the Terminus as a whole.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 04 novembre 2010 - 09:00 .

[Ieldra]

LookingGlass93 wrote...
The Rebellions weren't just because of krogan biology; they were also because the salarian uplift was focused solely on turning a post-apocalyptic culture into shock troops against the rachni. They militarised an already aggresive species and gave them no social incentive to be anything BUT soldiers.

Untrue. The problems were a result of removing the death risks inherent to the old environment of Tuchanka by giving the krogan technology. There are similar problems on Earth: if regions with traditionally high birth rates are given medical technology that increases the number of surviving children, a population explosion will result, and continue until the culture has adapted and people will, by one means or the other, have fewer children per woman. That process will take some generations and in the meantime, expect genocidal civil wars at one time or the other, that only won't turn into wars of aggression aimed outwards because those regions are usually technologically inferior. To get back to the krogan: unless they get their version of  "family planning" going, the galaxy needs the genophage. In an environment with limited resources, there can be no right to have as many children as you want. 
 

[Nightwriter]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Uber Rod wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

If you cure the genophage Wrex isn't going to lose power. He's a strong leader. That's why he's in power. Not because there is no genophage cure.

Grunt can't cure the genophage. Okeer didn't design him for that purpose. He in fact designed Grunt to completely ignore the genophage altogether. 

If you cure the genophage, neither Grunt or Wrex will lose importance. Now how do you see the situation?

So Grunt being designed to ignore the genophage...

What does that even mean?

It's what Warlord Okeer says about Grunt when you get the chance to talk to Okeer. He says something along the lines of insulting the enemy the worst way possible, by ignoring them. Essentially, if pure krogan can be genetically engineered and grown, then the genophage no longer hinders the population growth of the krogan.

Pretty much this, Uber. When you talk to Okeer, you pretty much go, "So you want to cure the genophage then."

Okeer: "No! I want to ignore it! I want to do nothing about it! Nothing!"

"... Then it will continue to afflict your people and you'll never get your power back."

"We will!"

"No. You won't have the numbers."

"We don't need the numbers!"

"Yes you do."

"No!"

"What the hell are you talking about."

"I'm going to make a soldier that's, like, SO mind-blowingly AWESOME that we'll be able to conquer the galaxy without increasing our numbers at all! Less is more!"

Thing is, Grunt is cool, but he's not that awesome in combat...

[Collider]

Only problem with Okeer's plan is repeating the success he had with Grunt. Okeer himself says that it's basically impossible for that to be happen - he cannot create another Grunt.



Anyway, the genophage stabilizes Krogan populations. They won't be able to expand very well, but they won't go extinct unless they kill each other so much that they do (in which case they brought that upon themselves).

[Dean_the_Young]

Not even numbers and population growth: as Okeer says, 'the mistake of an outsider.'



Okeer is very much a 'quality over quantity', and while genetic engineering/cloning would allow population growth after a fashion, population growth is the antithesis of the point, which was that 'pure' Krogan, as opposed to 'many' Krogan, are better.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Uber Rod wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

If you cure the genophage Wrex isn't going to lose power. He's a strong leader. That's why he's in power. Not because there is no genophage cure.

Grunt can't cure the genophage. Okeer didn't design him for that purpose. He in fact designed Grunt to completely ignore the genophage altogether. 

If you cure the genophage, neither Grunt or Wrex will lose importance. Now how do you see the situation?

So Grunt being designed to ignore the genophage...

What does that even mean?

It's what Warlord Okeer says about Grunt when you get the chance to talk to Okeer. He says something along the lines of insulting the enemy the worst way possible, by ignoring them. Essentially, if pure krogan can be genetically engineered and grown, then the genophage no longer hinders the population growth of the krogan.

Pretty much this, Uber. When you talk to Okeer, you pretty much go, "So you want to cure the genophage then."

Okeer: "No! I want to ignore it! I want to do nothing about it! Nothing!"

"... Then it will continue to afflict your people and you'll never get your power back."

"We will!"

"No. You won't have the numbers."

"We don't need the numbers!"

"Yes you do."

"No!"

"What the hell are you talking about."

"I'm going to make a soldier that's, like, SO mind-blowingly AWESOME that we'll be able to conquer the galaxy without increasing our numbers at all! Less is more!"

Thing is, Grunt is cool, but he's not that awesome in combat...

Not true at all, Night.

Grunt, after all, took (can take) pistol shots to the face. From a pistol Commander Shepard fired.

Everyone knows that when Shepard picks up a weapon, it becomes ten times as effective, instantly shooting though kinetic barriers, blowing up factory equipment with great explosions, even shooting down Reaper fetuses. Grunt took it to the face, and shrugged.

Consider that. Barriers blow, explosions commence, Reapers die at Shepard's pistol, and Grunt just shrugs.

Truly Grunt is on tier with Udina for the most formidable forces in the galaxy. Udina is the only man in the galaxy who can cross Shepard and get away with it. And Grunt is the only one in the galaxy who Shepard has shot and was not killed.

[Xilizhra]

Remember that Grunt dies from one chest/stomach shot if he closes the second door on the Collector base.

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not true at all, Night.

Grunt, after all, took (can take) pistol shots to the face. From a pistol Commander Shepard fired.

Everyone knows that when Shepard picks up a weapon, it becomes ten times as effective, instantly shooting though kinetic barriers, blowing up factory equipment with great explosions, even shooting down Reaper fetuses. Grunt took it to the face, and shrugged.

Consider that. Barriers blow, explosions commence, Reapers die at Shepard's pistol, and Grunt just shrugs.

Truly Grunt is on tier with Udina for the most formidable forces in the galaxy. Udina is the only man in the galaxy who can cross Shepard and get away with it. And Grunt is the only one in the galaxy who Shepard has shot and was not killed.

But, but that's just that Cutscene Awesomeness trope.

And what is this about Udina being the only one who can cross Shepard. Your loyalty to TIM is clearly forfeit, you forget him so quickly. I am disappoint.

I mean I'm no Cerberus fan, but TIM > Udina, hands down.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Remember that Grunt dies from one chest/stomach shot if he closes the second door on the Collector base.

Please, we both know he was just walking through fire all before it. 'Just one,' ha.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not true at all, Night.

Grunt, after all, took (can take) pistol shots to the face. From a pistol Commander Shepard fired.

Everyone knows that when Shepard picks up a weapon, it becomes ten times as effective, instantly shooting though kinetic barriers, blowing up factory equipment with great explosions, even shooting down Reaper fetuses. Grunt took it to the face, and shrugged.

Consider that. Barriers blow, explosions commence, Reapers die at Shepard's pistol, and Grunt just shrugs.

Truly Grunt is on tier with Udina for the most formidable forces in the galaxy. Udina is the only man in the galaxy who can cross Shepard and get away with it. And Grunt is the only one in the galaxy who Shepard has shot and was not killed.

But, but that's just that Cutscene Awesomeness trope.

And what is this about Udina being the only one who can cross Shepard. Your loyalty to TIM is clearly forfeit, you forget him so quickly. I am disappoint.

I mean I'm no Cerberus fan, but TIM > Udina, hands down.

Well, if you don't like TIM, you can blow up the base to spite him, and tell him to shut up, and watch him rage.

If you don't like Udina... you can leave him as the political mind behind Human advancement, his career and life mission. And then be a bit snappy with him later, without so much as a shove.

[Nightwriter]

Pfft. I can make paragon decisions which make his job as ambassador a living hell, I can make a decision which results in him getting punched unconscious by Anderson, and I can rob him of his seat on the Council, which results in him getting treated like Anderson's b*tch in ME2.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ah, but paragon decisions of 'doing the right thing' are retribution against him. And in some cases, that's exactly what he wants you to do. And he's still doing the job he wants.



The rest of the time, it Anderson, not Shepard, getting back at him.

[Nightwriter]

Nah, I'm the one who picked Anderson. Udina was most unhappy. It was a good moment. And the way you can treat him in ME2... not that I do treat him that way. He's actually right with his "political sh*tstorm" stuff.

[Dean_the_Young]

He might have wanted to be the Councilor himself... but he's still the brains behind the politics none the less.



Is that what you really wanted? To make Udina the power behind the scenes?

[DPSSOC]

[quote]LookingGlass93 wrote...
1) Your Saw analogy is misplaced. The galaxy is really, really big, filled with lots of world that are habitable but are unclaimed.[/quote]
 
Actually smaller than you think.  Since the Council won't allow the opening of new Relays we're confined to a relatively small portion of the galaxy.  However even if they had the whole galaxy available it's still not limitless and eventually they're going to run out of space, and as I've said without something to force them to change (like the genophage) the Krogan won't.

[quote]LookingGlass93 wrote...
Then you have worlds that can be terraformed to habitability, settlements on non-habitable worlds or in space (stations and such), and the fact that krogan can survive a wider range of environments that others, giving them more options. As long as there's a big enough disincentive to go to war (i.e. the Citadel fleets) over occupied planets, they won't do it.[/quote]

You do remember we're talking about the Krogan right?  The species that couldn't be bothered to try and save themselves from exstinction.  You think they're going to take the time to terraform worlds and build space stations, or is it more likely they'll look to already habitable worlds with established infrastructure and all they have to do is what they enjoy most to get it?  The Krogan are essentially the Vikings, they could develope everything they need themselves or they could just find people who already have it and take it.

The Citadel fleets didn't stop the Rebellions the first time and I fail to see what you think has changed.

[quote]LookingGlass93 wrote...
2) The krogan are genetically predisposed to aggression, not to war.[/quote]
 
Genetic predispositon to agression leading to a cultural disposition to war.

[quote]LookingGlass93 wrote...
Their version of dialogue is to headbutt an opponent, but that doesn't mean they're indiscriminate killers. Wrex isn't, nor are the krogan you meet at the camp, on the Citadel, or Illium.[/quote]
 
Never meant to imply they were indiscriminate, but aggression and violence are still ingrained in their nature and their culture.  Yes some Krogan rise above it but if you listen to Wrex you'll note that many Krogan are only following him out of fear of anihilation.  The fact that I don't smash in the faces of everyone who annoys me doesn't mean I wouldn't if the proper opportunity presented itself.

[quote]LookingGlass93 wrote...
3. The genophage doesn't make the krogan value life more, it removes any incentiive for them to value life at all. Krogan don't think their species will survive, and it warps their thinking, making them desperate and reckless. In 1500 years Wrex is the only leader to have attempted reform. It even says so in the codex; most krogan follow their own version of eat, drink and be merry, because they have no hope for the future. The genophage is destorying the krogan.[/quote]

And such is the nature of evolution.  Those who can't adapt, die.  Yes some Krogan consider life of little value and these Krogan generally won't have children so this mentality lasts only 1 generation (1 fairly short generation).  This means that most children will be born to clans and parents who do have some hope for their species and this will be passed on.  Wrex's reforms are the first sign of this shift (those without hope are dead and childless, those with hope are looking at new ways of thinking), a shift that never would have happened without the genophage.


EDIT: Your concern about a Terminus empire is a valid concern, but then that's the problem of the Terminus as a whole.

[/quote]