142 réponses à ce sujet

[Epic777]

^^ Why not go full genocide if nothing is going to change the krogan?

[HolyJellyfish]

It really depends on your moral stand point.

The Genophage isn't killing  the Krogan - Krogan are killing Krogan. Wrex makes it very clear from the beginning, that his race has a nasty habit of confronting the wrong kind of situation. He seems to be making best of the situation, and the Genophage seems to be changing the Krogans traditions in a good way (Neutral zone, the female clans have a majority of the power, etc.)

But I sometimes wonder that if by 'curing' the genophage, that will give you a huge Krogan advantage against the reapers, or if during the reaper attack, the entire extinction of the Krogan race depends entirely on your choice from ME2 (Genophage or not?)

Its tricky. I'd do two save files just in case. It seems like it'll play an important part later.

[DPSSOC]

If that becomes the case then sure, but the genophage is channging the Krogan, Wrex is the sign of that change. It's working, the Krogan are working around this imposed handicap and realizing they can't go on with business as usual. Take away the genophage and all that change goes out the window because the can continue with business as usual.

[Manic Sheep]

Epic777 wrote...

^^ Why not go full genocide if nothing is going to change the krogan?

Because while the Krogan are violent as a whole that does not mean they are worthless or have no right to exist at all. Allot of the problems with the krogan is cause purely because they breed so fast.

Also it’s not that they can't change, but they aren’t going to change overnight or even in the next century. It would have been better had the Krogan simply been left alone in the first place. Curing the genophage would be stupid at  this point in time and there will always be bitterness over it.
Well with how fast they breed I don't know that it would be a good idea to cure at all even if the Krogan weren’t as violent unless they regulated breeding themselves.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 06 novembre 2010 - 10:31 .

[MisterDyslexo]

Wouldn't it be possible to alter the genophage so that it has no affect only on Tutchanka? I mean the reason that krogan reproduced like bunnies was because there was no harsh environment, natural predators, etc, on the planets that they settled. However all of these are still existent on Tutchanka, not to mention the warring clans. The only real thing I can think that might be flawed about this is taking the water from Tutchanka offworld, but that would involve not only an unparalleled transportation of water, but it would have to be constant so it doesn't revert back into the current infertility rate.

Or I might be wrong about everything I just said. Tbh, most of the ideas I come up with are really bad

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 06 novembre 2010 - 10:38 .

[Epic777]

Manic Sheep wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

^^ Why not go full genocide if nothing is going to change the krogan?

Because while the Krogan are violent as a whole that does not mean they are worthless or have no right to exist at all. Allot of the problems with the krogan is cause purely because they breed so fast.

Also it’s not that they can't change, but they aren’t going to change overnight or even in the next century. It would have been better had the Krogan simply been left alone in the first place. Curing the genophage would be stupid at  this point in time and there will always be bitterness over it.
Well with how fast they breed I don't know that it would be a good idea to cure at all even if the Krogan weren’t as violent unless they regulated breeding themselves.

The genophage is pandora's box, the bitterness because of the genophage is never going to disappear as its gone on for so long genophage cure or not.  Everyone agrees krogan need to change however  not through artificial means such as genophage, it makes the same mistake as the original disrupting krogan cultural evolution by artificial means.

-------------------------------------
On a side note; the game (Me2) only says to keep maelons work as its an unfinished cure, there is no cure genophage option.

Modifié par Epic777, 07 novembre 2010 - 12:05 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

Curing the genophage even if it ME3 takes place 3 -5 yrs later say they cure it at the end of 2 that's still not enough time for those little genfree babies to grow up unless they all become like Grunt and get made fast food swift and all. I don't think it will effect Wrex's clans willingness to fallow him but it may stop him from winning over any other clans because they will lose focus and want nothing but to war and could potentially go after those star system again but I also had Legion add in the heretics so I'll find out if doing that and making Mordin keep the genophage work if I just royally screwed myself or not.

[Sajuro]

I hate to say it but curing the genophage wouldn't be a good idea at the moment, or ever provided that the Krogan remain the same blood knights they are. If they eventually settle down, the Yahg taking on the 'Crazy ****er' role in the galaxy. Sadly I don't know if that can ever happen since their society never had the chance to mature.

[Yojimbo_Ltd]

My advice to you is don't get involved. This decision belongs to the parties involved I.E. ALL OF HUMANITY, Turians, asari, salarians, quarians, geth, and especially the krogan. Don't play god. Have THEM come to a decision.

Modifié par Yojimbo_Ltd, 07 novembre 2010 - 03:36 .

[Yojimbo_Ltd]

whoops

Modifié par Yojimbo_Ltd, 07 novembre 2010 - 03:36 .

[Elite Midget]

Personally I would cure it.



I will not hold the Present and Future Krogan accountable for the mistakes of their kin in the past. I wasen't around for it and having seen what the Genophage has done to the survivors it doesn't seem right to continue punishing the next Generation of Krogan.



Saying the Genophage is needed even though many of the Current Generation Krogan did nothing to deserve it is wrong. You can't judge a whole species years later for what happened in the past. Especially when those still being punished are those that weren't even around to warrent the Genophage.



This reminds me of Dragon Age: Origins when the Dalish continued to punish the Werewolves, by refusing to lift the curse, for the actions of their ancestors.

[chris025657]

Elite Midget wrote...

Personally I would cure it.

I will not hold the Present and Future Krogan accountable for the mistakes of their kin in the past. I wasen't around for it and having seen what the Genophage has done to the survivors it doesn't seem right to continue punishing the next Generation of Krogan.

Saying the Genophage is needed even though many of the Current Generation Krogan did nothing to deserve it is wrong. You can't judge a whole species years later for what happened in the past. Especially when those still being punished are those that weren't even around to warrent the Genophage.

This reminds me of Dragon Age: Origins when the Dalish continued to punish the Werewolves, by refusing to lift the curse, for the actions of their ancestors.

The reason the genophage was updated was not to punish the Krogan for the actions of their ancestors. Instead, it was done because of the potential threat unrestricted naturally reproducing Krogan could pose to the galaxy.

The Krogan evolved on a planet that naturally (and unnaturally through radiation) restricted their numbers. When that check on their population was removed when they were uplifted by the Salarians, the Krogan exploded in numbers and began systematically overpopulating and depleting the resources of several planets. This eventually led to violent colonization of other worlds and the Krogan Rebellions. 

Perhaps if the Krogan would be willing to institute population controls and more sustainable growth, I would be in favor of curing the genophage. As it stands now though, I feel it may be for the best if the genophage were left as it is as a check on Krogan numbers. 

Edit: And another thing: I never thought of the strategy of curing the genophage in order to use the Krogan as masses of ground troops to be an effective strategy against the Reapers. For starters, changing the reproduction rate of the Krogan isn't a get-out-of-jail-free-card. You would still need the vast amount of resources necessary to create, sustain, arm, and train such an army. Then there's the question of how effective a Krogan army would be against the Reapers.

Modifié par chris025657, 07 novembre 2010 - 04:15 .

[Elite Midget]

That is still placing judgement on innocents because they 'might' end up as a threat again. The Krogan of today aren't the same as the Krogan of Yesterday. Fear is why they chose to 'punish' the Krogan by updating the Genophage. I bet the Salarians and the other Council races never thought that a Krogan like Wrex could even exist. He's doing something that they thought impossible for a Krogan to do. Thus their calculations are all moot since they were created while missing important information such as Krogans choosing another path ala Wrex.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 07 novembre 2010 - 04:25 .

[Epic777]

Elite Midget wrote...

That is still placing judgement on innocents because they 'might' end up as a threat again. The Krogan of today aren't the same as the Krogan of Yesterday. Fear is why they chose to 'punish' the Krogan by updating the Genophage. I bet the Salarians and the other Council races never thought that a Krogan like Wrex could even exist. He's doing something that they thought impossible for a Krogan to do. Thus their calculations are all moot since they were created while missing important information such as Krogans choosing another path ala Wrex.

Like when was the last time you saw a krogan scientist? - me1

[Elite Midget]

Saren had a Krogan Scientist and Okeer could be classified as a Krogan scientist. His activities make even Mordin blush.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 07 novembre 2010 - 07:15 .

[HolyJellyfish]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Curing the genophage even if it ME3 takes place 3 -5 yrs later say they cure it at the end of 2 that's still not enough time for those little genfree babies to grow up unless they all become like Grunt and get made fast food swift and all. I don't think it will effect Wrex's clans willingness to fallow him but it may stop him from winning over any other clans because they will lose focus and want nothing but to war and could potentially go after those star system again but I also had Legion add in the heretics so I'll find out if doing that and making Mordin keep the genophage work if I just royally screwed myself or not.

True, but what I was suggesting was that an entire generation of krogan would still exist if the other Krogan on Tuchanka & the blood pack were rallied up under the common cause of killing the reapers. If the Krogan were to do that now, with their numbers as low as they are, it would spell certain extinction UNLESS there was a population waiting to replace them.

I really believe that is going to be one of the most heartbreaking revelations in the third game, depending on your choices with Wrex & the genophage -- you could potentially kill off an entire race.

[Homebound]

I didnt know what to do either. I opted to keep the tainted Genophage cure information. Better have it than need it.

[DPSSOC]

Elite Midget wrote...
That is still placing judgement on innocents because they 'might' end up as a threat again.

 
Incorrect it's placing a judgement on innocents because they would end up as a threat again.  Mordin points out they spent years, and looked at thousands of alternatives, before deciding what to do.  Rewriting the genophage was the only solution that wouldn't have led to another Krogan Rebellion and there's no guaranteeing the Council would be as generous this time around.

Elite Midget wrote...
The Krogan of today aren't the same as the Krogan of Yesterday.

 
Yeah they are.  Aside from the genophage they're the same biologically from the Krogan who started the Rebellions, and aside from Wrex and co. they're the same culturally.  Now before you start thinking Wrex and co is a large portion keep in mind most of the Krogan who follow Wrex don't do it because they agree with him.

And just so you don't think I'm putting Krogan down Human beings are the same people today that we were durring the height of the Roman Empire (I could go back further but let's stick with the Romans), the behaviours are the same we've simply refined them for the purpose of longevity.

Elite Midget wrote...
Fear is why they chose to 'punish' the Krogan by updating the Genophage. I bet the Salarians and the other Council races never thought that a Krogan like Wrex could even exist. He's doing something that they thought impossible for a Krogan to do. Thus their calculations are all moot since they were created while missing important information such as Krogans choosing another path ala Wrex.

And Wrex exists because of the genophage.  I can't stress this enough, hence why I keep repeating it, Wrex is a product of the genophage.  If the genophage hadn't happened Wrex wouldn't have thought of encouraging the Krogan to settle down, it wouldn't have been necessary, and humanity would have walked in to a galactic civilization that's either A) in a constant state of war or anihilates or subjugates any new species they encounter.

[Lumikki]

People should make they own mind when choosing, not to try find solutions on they choise problems. How to hell you gonna play Shepard if you can't make choises by your self?

[FrancisKitt]

I have it, because like Shepard said"better to have it and not need it". That said, the Genophage -despite being rather nasty (seriously, stillbirths?), is a necessary evil.

[Epic777]

Necessary or unnecessary evil, the genophage is the epitome of pandora's box. Even if its effects cause the krogan to change culturally the are still going to resent the council for many krogan lifetimes (1000 of years).

[Elite Midget]

You believe that they 'will' while I believe that the new generation Krogan, who haven't done enouh wrong to warrent being neutered permantly, shouldn't be punished because they 'might' by statistics conducted years ago. Mordin's studies weren't a 100% certianty. They were closer to 90%. That was years ago. Now times have changed and it has adversly effected the new Krogans greatly. Many have lost hope and feel that they're worthless since they might never produce an heir or find a female to bond with. Not to mention that the 999/1000 death rate for newborns is HORRIFYING. Their lost lives are on the Salarians hands.



Even after the Genophage the Salarians did NOTHING for the Krogans. They didn't even try to uplift them into a more peaceful society when they were more manageable. They simply caused mass genocide and than left the Krogan to figure things out on their own. In fact, when they saw that the Genophage wasen't having the desired effect they modified it and made it even more deadly because they feared what MIGHT happen while ignoring what WAS happening to the Krogan at that very moment.



Thus, based on these facts, I decided that the Krogan don't deserve to be punished any longer for the crimes commited in the past that they had no hand in. Especially since the Council races used and abused them than told them that they were on their own while faced with massive stillborns.

[DPSSOC]

Epic777 wrote...
Necessary or unnecessary evil, the genophage is the epitome of pandora's box. Even if its effects cause the krogan to change culturally the are still going to resent the council for many krogan lifetimes (1000 of years).

No opening pandora's box was uplifting the Krogan in the first place; that's what created the problem.  Nothing the Council could have done would have made the Krogan resent them any less so they chose the option that didn't require wiping out a species to stop the war.

Elite Midget wrote...
You believe that they 'will' while I believe that the new generation Krogan, who haven't done enouh wrong to warrent being neutered permantly, shouldn't be punished because they 'might' by statistics conducted years ago. Mordin's studies weren't a 100% certianty. They were closer to 90%.

 
If I'm 90% sure someone's going to kill me unless I kill them first guess what, I'm gonna at least try to kill them.  Is it perfect, no, but it's enough.

Elite Midget wrote...
That was years ago. Now times have changed and it has adversly effected the new Krogans greatly. Many have lost hope and feel that they're worthless since they might never produce an heir or find a female to bond with.

 
That's a response to the genophage in general and has not increased since the genophage modification, it's not like the Krogan were aware they were beating the genophage.  However let's consider this, the Krogan were a galactic threat, same with the Rachni and the Reapers.  If they beat the genophage they would become such a threat again, so I'm sorry but I think a few Krogan being depressed is a small price to pay for galactic security.

Elite Midget wrote...
Even after the Genophage the Salarians did NOTHING for the Krogans. They didn't even try to uplift them into a more peaceful society when they were more manageable. They simply caused mass genocide and than left the Krogan to figure things out on their own.

 
That's because they recognized their first mistake.  Salarian involvement, Council involvement, is what led to the Krogan problem in the first place, so acknowledging that further meddling will only make things worse, they've opted to let the Krogan sort it out for themselves.

Elite Midget wrote...
In fact, when they saw that the Genophage wasen't having the desired effect they modified it and made it even more deadly because they feared what MIGHT happen while ignoring what WAS happening to the Krogan at that very moment.

To what are you referring.

[Elite Midget]

Their first mistake was uplifting the Krogan at a rapid rate and leaving them unchecked. They didn't know how to react to the situation and thus they went with how they lived on their home planet. Their second mistake, after commiting Genocide, was ignoring the Krogan and trying to let them adapt again to a change they weren't prepared for.

If the Salarians really cared and didn't allow fear, and old statistics, to push bias into their judgement than they would have reached out to the Krogan long ago. Instead they made the EXACT same mistake again with the Krogan. They forced change upon them and than let them try and figure it out on their own. Ala Culture Shock.

- Krogan are uplifted -

Salarians: Hey! You can now be a part of the Galactic Community!
Krogan: Is the Galactic Community just as bad as our home?
Salarians: No siree! You can finally live without fear of being brutally murdered in your sleep! Well.. At least not as often as your home.
Krogan: We breed alot and have a high birth rate. Wouldn't that cause problems?
Salarians: Perfect! You can help us defeat the Rachnii!
Krogan: Okay, if you say so... Though you're gonna guide us right?
Salarians: Too much talking! Get to killing those Rachnii!

- Rachnii are dead -

Krogan: Ummm... The Rachnii are dead and stuff. However, we aren't used to being a part of the Galactic Community. These worlds are so peaceful and might pose a problem. What with us being used to harsh conditions that our bodies adapted to and thus causing unrestrained huge birth rates. What about Culture Shock?
Salarians: No problem! I'm sure you can deal with this sudden change to peace from constant warfare!
Krogan: Okay, but can you help us with that?
Salarians: Too busy! You can do it, I'm sure!

- Krogan face Overpopulation and Depleted Resources. Out of Desperation they start grabbing more planets to sustain their race-

Salarians: What are you doing?!
Krogan: We're expanding. These planets aren't enough to sustain our rapid birth rates.
Salarians: No, no, no! Bad Krogan! You are a threat to the Galatic Community now!
Krogan: But we're just doing what our instincts are telling us... It's not like you gave us any Direction or anything. You uplifted us into space, used us to kill the Rachnii, and than you kinda abandoned us. I thought your race was supposed to be smart!
Salarians: HOW DARE YOU! Our calculations are never wrong!
Krogan: They were this time.
Salarians: You WILL regret this!

- Salarians meet with Turians -

Turians: So what if the Krogan are rapidly expanding? They're new to the whole Galactic Community thing. Hell, we did the exact same thing when we first went into space. I mean, how else did we become a Super Power?
Salarians: Yes, well... With the rapid Krogan Birthrates that we could 'NEVER' have forseen, despite all the data to the contrary, they could replace you as a Super Power in due time.
Turians: WHAT?!
Salarians: Yes! So will you nuke them with this 'Genophage' for us?
Turians: Oh course! We'll always be #1!

- Salarians meet with the Asari -

Asari: Wait? You want us to inflict Genocide? Umm... Isn't the whole reason they got out of control is because you kinda just left them there without any real direction?
Salarians: Krogan are too stupid to listen to us! Genocide... I mean, Genophage is the only option!
Asari: Why do I feel like I'm only agreeing with you because you let this spiral out of control?
Salarians: No matter! This will work!

- The Genophage is unleashed! -

Krogan: What's going on!? The children! There's a 999/1000 stillborn rate now!
Salarians: Adapt to that!
Krogan: Wait, you aren't gonna help us with this? The Turians just commited Genocide! How are we supposed to get through this massive death toll year over year?!
Salarians: Not my problem. Bye now.
Krogan: They used us and than threw us out!

- Krogan start adapting to Genophage years later -

Krogan: Wait! We're at 2/1000 for non-stillborns I guess this harsh environment on our homeworld and the constant warfare is forceing us to evolve! I wonder... If our home wasen't so messed up than maybe we wouldn't have such high birthrates and our bodies would evolve to fit in less birthrates.
Salarians: Not good! They're adapting! It must always stay at 999/1000 stillborns! Other outside factors, such as Harsh Living Environment and Constant Warfare, must not be factored into our calculations! Get to work~!

- Later -

Krogan: False alarm guys... We are still facing 999/1000 stillborns.
Krogan: We're doomed! The Galatic Community has doomed us all!
Krogan Female: Nooo~! My babies! Why did they do this to us? I wasen't even alive when they first commited Genocide on us! Why are we being punished still?!
Bloodpack: Okay, we've been patient long enough! The Galatic Community shall pay for what they did to us and than leaving us to rot! Do any females want to volunteer to go through tests? Killing each other isn't stopping the 999/1000 stillborns! It's time to start finding another way!
Krogan Females: We do! We'll do anything if it means that we don't have to keep giving birth to dead children!

- First Contact War is ended -

Salarians: Humans are rapidly expanding their territory. Very aggressive... Just like the Krogan.
Turians: Get to work on a Genophage for them too. Once they stop being useful we neuter them too!
Asari: I don't know-...
Salarians and Turians: Shut up! We don't care what you think! We never make mistakes!

Modifié par Elite Midget, 07 novembre 2010 - 11:59 .

[Epic777]

DPSSOC wrote...

Epic777 wrote...
Necessary or unnecessary evil, the genophage is the epitome of pandora's box. Even if its effects cause the krogan to change culturally the are still going to resent the council for many krogan lifetimes (1000 of years).

No opening pandora's box was uplifting the Krogan in the first place; that's what created the problem.  Nothing the Council could have done would have made the Krogan resent them any less so they chose the option that didn't require wiping out a species to stop the war.

Elite Midget wrote...
You believe that they 'will' while I believe that the new generation Krogan, who haven't done enouh wrong to warrent being neutered permantly, shouldn't be punished because they 'might' by statistics conducted years ago. Mordin's studies weren't a 100% certianty. They were closer to 90%.

 
If I'm 90% sure someone's going to kill me unless I kill them first guess what, I'm gonna at least try to kill them.  Is it perfect, no, but it's enough.

Elite Midget wrote...
That was years ago. Now times have changed and it has adversly effected the new Krogans greatly. Many have lost hope and feel that they're worthless since they might never produce an heir or find a female to bond with.

 
That's a response to the genophage in general and has not increased since the genophage modification, it's not like the Krogan were aware they were beating the genophage.  However let's consider this, the Krogan were a galactic threat, same with the Rachni and the Reapers.  If they beat the genophage they would become such a threat again, so I'm sorry but I think a few Krogan being depressed is a small price to pay for galactic security.

Elite Midget wrote...
Even after the Genophage the Salarians did NOTHING for the Krogans. They didn't even try to uplift them into a more peaceful society when they were more manageable. They simply caused mass genocide and than left the Krogan to figure things out on their own.

 
That's because they recognized their first mistake.  Salarian involvement, Council involvement, is what led to the Krogan problem in the first place, so acknowledging that further meddling will only make things worse, they've opted to let the Krogan sort it out for themselves.

Elite Midget wrote...
In fact, when they saw that the Genophage wasen't having the desired effect they modified it and made it even more deadly because they feared what MIGHT happen while ignoring what WAS happening to the Krogan at that very moment.

To what are you referring.

If thats so there are two boxes being open. The original mistake was uplift the krogan and use them as expendable shock troops. America dropped the A-bomb on Japan however america suddenly didn't just walk away, they helped rebuild and reshape Japan's culture. The council has dropped the G-bomb they left, leaving its effects to linger a long time which guarantees krogan anger. 

Thats the problem the council is not letting the krogan sort out. The salarians saw the krogan were evolving against the genophage, thats it, no evidence of any warmongering against the council races. Mordin and co decided they didn't like how they were evolving and re-released the genophage. A lighter example would be liking an ex bf/gf who has supposedly move on from your relationship but calls constantly.