142 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

Elite Midget wrote...
If the Salarians really cared and didn't allow fear, and old statistics, to push bias into their judgement than they would have reached out to the Krogan long ago.

 
They weren't using old statistics though.  When they made the decision to modify the genophage (or use it initially) they were using current data.  I again point out that the STG spent years looking for alternatives before implementing the adapted genophage.  They analyzed data, crafted scenarios, ran simulations, and in the end decided that this was the best way to go.  It wasn't a snap of the moment "Oh no the Krogan are adapting to the genophage we need to make a new one."  It was a drawn out process of determining if they needed to do something and what it was that needed doing.  As I've said the Krogan have not changed all that much since the Rebellions and there is no reason to believe a genophage free Krogan wouldn't do the same thing all over again.

Elite Midget wrote...
- Krogan face Overpopulation and Depleted Resources. Out of Desperation they start grabbing more planets to sustain their race-

Salarians: What are you doing?!
Krogan: We're expanding. These planets aren't enough to sustain our rapid birth rates.
Salarians: No, no, no! Bad Krogan! You are a threat to the Galatic Community now!

Unless I'm much mistaken the Council didn't object to Krogan expansion until they started taking inhabitted worlds by force.  It's the difference between putting an addition on my home and coming over and simply taking over yours.

Epic777 wrote...
Thats the problem the council is not letting the krogan sort out. The salarians saw the krogan were evolving against the genophage, thats it, no evidence of any warmongering against the council races.

 
They.  Are.  Krogan.  Everything from their biology to their culture is geared towards conflict.  The Krogan are the embodiment of violence, rage with legs and arms, It's like leaving an undetonated atomic bomb sitting in the middle of town, it's only a matter of time until it goes boom.

[Sphynx118]

DPSSOC wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...
If the Salarians really cared and didn't allow fear, and old statistics, to push bias into their judgement than they would have reached out to the Krogan long ago.

 
They weren't using old statistics though.  When they made the decision to modify the genophage (or use it initially) they were using current data.  I again point out that the STG spent years looking for alternatives before implementing the adapted genophage.  They analyzed data, crafted scenarios, ran simulations, and in the end decided that this was the best way to go.  It wasn't a snap of the moment "Oh no the Krogan are adapting to the genophage we need to make a new one."  It was a drawn out process of determining if they needed to do something and what it was that needed doing.  As I've said the Krogan have not changed all that much since the Rebellions and there is no reason to believe a genophage free Krogan wouldn't do the same thing all over again.

Elite Midget wrote...
- Krogan face Overpopulation and Depleted Resources. Out of Desperation they start grabbing more planets to sustain their race-

Salarians: What are you doing?!
Krogan: We're expanding. These planets aren't enough to sustain our rapid birth rates.
Salarians: No, no, no! Bad Krogan! You are a threat to the Galatic Community now!

Unless I'm much mistaken the Council didn't object to Krogan expansion until they started taking inhabitted worlds by force.  It's the difference between putting an addition on my home and coming over and simply taking over yours.

Epic777 wrote...
Thats the problem the council is not letting the krogan sort out. The salarians saw the krogan were evolving against the genophage, thats it, no evidence of any warmongering against the council races.

 
They.  Are.  Krogan.  Everything from their biology to their culture is geared towards conflict.  The Krogan are the embodiment of violence, rage with legs and arms, It's like leaving an undetonated atomic bomb sitting in the middle of town, it's only a matter of time until it goes boom.

QFT.
Anyone wanting to reverse the genophage would be dooming the galaxy. Way too many carebears these days. Sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils. 

Mordin did it and he is prepared to do it again.

[Epic777]

Are you going to apply the krogan vaccine (the genophage) every time the krogan spikes up through adapting, breeding or through technology? Mordin is a great character and my favorite by in the ME series but I disagree here. Does Mordin have any hard evidence that any of the krogan clans were going to attack the citadel races or anyone else? Again if the krogan are so unchangeable with genophage being the only thing keeping the barbarians from the gates of rome (effective analogy even though I hate it) then why not full genocide?

The 2nd genophage is applied because Mordin and co didn't like how the krogan were evolving, they are not giving the krogan a chance to evolve. Even if the krogan were united do you really believe they will ever warm up to the citadel races?

On a side note if I am a carebear, I glad you never held a high political position in the cold war, you would have immediately bombed some part of the USSR :-p

[Elite Midget]

Carebear? Don't start slinging mud here because you support Genocide against the Krogan.

The Salarians did what they do best. Trying to play God and refusing to take an active and physical role in a problem they could have prevented. First time, shame on the Krogan for failing to coup with their High Birth Rates which isn't really their fault. The second time is squarely on the Salarians shoulders. They went to their labs and threw money at the problem while leaving the Krogan in the dark. Hell, they didn't even bother telling the Krogan that the Genophage wasen't meant to wipe them out. Though that's understandable considering that it would only anger the Krogan towards the Salarians even more.

The Genophage was supposed to effect the chances of pregnancy. Instead it results in 999/1000 stillborns. However, the Salarians were 'fine' with that and didn't even bother trying to 'fix' the grave misstep of the Genophage. To them it gave them the same result even if it meant the blood of thousands of Krogan babies upon their hands ever day.

I'm surprised the Turians didn't demand a Genophage made to neuter humanity after First Contact. To them humans endangered Galactic Peace just like the Krogans did when they couldn't understand their overpopulation problems and how the Galactic Community worked. Krogan are used to taking what they want or need. Thus they followed their instincts since the Salarians failed to help or guide them through the Culture Shock.

[red pies]

given all the evidence i've recieved i have decided not to cure the genophage but to keep the data

[QwertyQwerty]

 yes! :innocent:

[Elite Midget]

Why? So you can use it as leaverage over the Krogan and have them dance around the palm of your hand as puppets for your cruel game of playing both their Saviour and Destroyer?

[AdmiralCheez]

Curiong the genophage immediately would be disastrous. Never curing it at all would be tragic. I'd say find a way to slowly reverse its effects, but never bring fertility levels all the way back up to pre-rebellion levels.

[Sphynx118]

Elite Midget wrote...

Carebear? Don't start slinging mud here because you support Genocide against the Krogan.

The Salarians did what they do best. Trying to play God and refusing to take an active and physical role in a problem they could have prevented. First time, shame on the Krogan for failing to coup with their High Birth Rates which isn't really their fault. The second time is squarely on the Salarians shoulders. They went to their labs and threw money at the problem while leaving the Krogan in the dark. Hell, they didn't even bother telling the Krogan that the Genophage wasen't meant to wipe them out. Though that's understandable considering that it would only anger the Krogan towards the Salarians even more.

The Genophage was supposed to effect the chances of pregnancy. Instead it results in 999/1000 stillborns. However, the Salarians were 'fine' with that and didn't even bother trying to 'fix' the grave misstep of the Genophage. To them it gave them the same result even if it meant the blood of thousands of Krogan babies upon their hands ever day.

I'm surprised the Turians didn't demand a Genophage made to neuter humanity after First Contact. To them humans endangered Galactic Peace just like the Krogans did when they couldn't understand their overpopulation problems and how the Galactic Community worked. Krogan are used to taking what they want or need. Thus they followed their instincts since the Salarians failed to help or guide them through the Culture Shock.

Lol u mad? The genophage is the krogans own damn fault and its all there in the lore. The krogan refused to stop colonizing new planets even when asked nicely by the council.
 Then they start "colonizing" (as its called in carebear speak) aka conquering inhabitet planets. 

"Lol my race breeds faster than rats im gonna take your planet and make it mine. Dont hate me though, its not my fault LUL"

Its not like the salarians just threw the genophage at the krogan and then left it there. Mordin said they did countless tests, calculations, and simulations for decades after and every single one except the genophage ended with krogan waging galactic war.

Its in their nature to destroy and be brutes. Its like letting dinosaurs out in a park and then go "well they can change their ways" while they eat your face off

[MColes]

It's not genocide. The Krogan adapted extreme breeding mechanics through countless wars, and pruposefully breeding more krogan to go off and fight. The Genophage only counters their accelerated breeding adaptation to a more managable number, in relation to the overall population of Korgan before they were given interstellar flight. Hey, if you COULD ship every damn one of them back to Tuchanka, and leave them no way of getting off the planet, THEN you'd see real genocide. They are who they have made themselves to be.

[Dean_the_Young]

It was, is, a genocidal weapon. If the Krogan survive past it, it will be because of Wrex, not because of the Salarians or the Council.

[MColes]

Elite Midget wrote...
Thus they followed their instincts

That's right.  Krogan follow their instincts, like an animal, or a Reaper. The entire Krogan civilization and cultural identity is based on conquest, and self annihilation.  Wrex wouldn't be Wrex, if he didn't have experience off world.  He's also the exception, not the rule.

[MColes]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It was, is, a genocidal weapon. If the Krogan survive past it, it will be because of Wrex, not because of the Salarians or the Council.

Genocide is extermination.  Krogan can still breed, they aren't all complete sterile and haven't been wiped out.  Population numbers for the Krogan are where they should be (Based on natural Krogan breeding, before they were GIVEN space flight) in comparison to the rest of galactic civilization.

The pinnacle or Krogan technology, was the nuclear bomb.

[Epic777]

So the genophage is going to be reapplied everytime the krogan population spikes?

[DPSSOC]

Not necessarily. As Mordin points out they made sure the rise in Krogan birthrates was a result of biological adaptation to the genophage rather than cultural. The adaptation was just to make sure the genophage was working the way it was supposed to, as long as the genophage keeps working any population spike is the result of cultural evolution and as such is a good sign.



The genophage just keeps the Krogan from becoming a considerable threat again. Consider that 1/1000 successful births is required to keep the Krogan population growth rate at pre-industrial levels. So imagine if you will that a Krogan female is capable of giving birth to 1,000 children in a year, now imagine that you have 1,000 Krogan females, that's 1 million new Krogan every year and after a certain period of time, 20-30 years however long it takes Krogan to reach maturity, you now have 1 million soldiers every year. Even if you assume half the population is male that's 1/2 million soldiers and 1/2 million more females making 1,000 children a year. Those numbers start to add up quick.

[Epic777]

Thats my thing mordin's idea relies on the extreme "happy flow" of events. My thing is this you cannot predict cultural evolution very well. If I was living in the medieval period and talked about how the powers of the pope could wane over the centuries, no one would have believed me. If I was is a small town called Rome back in the day talking about Empire it would seem impossible.

Now we assume with the genophage the krogan unite and become more peaceful and have no resentment over the genophage.
If that is one scenario of krogan evolution then the krogan unite and become culturally advanced to cure the genophage themselves is also another possibility. Maybe the krogan adapt culturally and join the batarians and terrorize the far away colonies of different races.Maybe the reapers could dangle the cure like a carrot, the krogan take the bait  and the krogan go to fight against all the races.

Whats my point? Cultural evolution is unpredictable, the salarians should waited and seen if the krogan were going to attack (which seems unlikely considering their homeworld doesn't have any industries) again then strike, do not try and be the oracle to something very unpredictable, that would be me predicting the US election 10 years from now.

On a side I note I am glad this discussion has be respectful :-p

Modifié par Epic777, 09 novembre 2010 - 06:16 .

[Elite Midget]

The Genophage is still not working as intended. It's resulting in no change in Pregnancy. Instead it just kills babies before they even get out of the womb. It was supposed to effect Birth Rates and the Chance of Pregnancy. The Genophage didn't do either of that. Instead it's a virus that devours the children from the inside and pops them out as stillborns. It's a horrifying war crime and the Salarians are fine with the Genophage working that way instead of what they had originally intended. To them it's the same result even if it means the blood of millions of innocent baby Krogan on their hands each year.



I'm surprised Krogan haven't resulted into cutting out the children, once pregnancy happens, and growing them in a tube. After all, it's the Genophage inside the Krogan that is killing the babies as they grow in the womb.



As for Instincts...



Humans used to be brutal Cavemen that were overly aggresseive and warred against eachother to get what they wanted.



Krogan, when they were thrust into space, are just like humans when they were cavemen. However, the Salarians didn't try and teach them anything new that they didn't already understand. Instead they pointed to the Rachnii and told them to kill the Rachnii which they did. Thus after the Rachnii died and the Krogan were unable to cope with Spacefareing and thus resorted to their instincts because the Council Races used them and than abandoned them without ever guiding them beyond war.



The first Genophage was needed because the Council Races failed the Krogan. The second Genophage is because the Council Races failed the Krogan again and let fear dictate their actions instead of taking responsibility and guideing the Krogan like they should have done in the first place.



Both Genophages are failures since they don't effect the chance of pregnancy or the odds of a child beginning to develop in the womb.



They instead kill the babies from the inside. Thus every dead baby Krogan that comes out as a stillborn is an innocent life that the Salarians brutually murdered because they didn't take responsibility, didn't try and fix the Genophage to what it was meant to do, and they're so arrogant that they refuse to acknowledge any Krogan Scientest. Okeer is a shinning example of a Krogan Genius that made even Mordin look stupid.

[Dean_the_Young]

MColes wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It was, is, a genocidal weapon. If the Krogan survive past it, it will be because of Wrex, not because of the Salarians or the Council.

Genocide is extermination.  Krogan can still breed, they aren't all complete sterile and haven't been wiped out.  Population numbers for the Krogan are where they should be (Based on natural Krogan breeding, before they were GIVEN space flight) in comparison to the rest of galactic civilization.

The pinnacle or Krogan technology, was the nuclear bomb.

The Krogan are breeding below repopulation rates. If things don't change (Wrex's reforms, possibly), they will be at last exterminated.

[Sphynx118]

Elite Midget wrote...

The Genophage is still not working as intended. It's resulting in no change in Pregnancy. Instead it just kills babies before they even get out of the womb. It was supposed to effect Birth Rates and the Chance of Pregnancy. The Genophage didn't do either of that. Instead it's a virus that devours the children from the inside and pops them out as stillborns. It's a horrifying war crime and the Salarians are fine with the Genophage working that way instead of what they had originally intended. To them it's the same result even if it means the blood of millions of innocent baby Krogan on their hands each year.

I'm surprised Krogan haven't resulted into cutting out the children, once pregnancy happens, and growing them in a tube. After all, it's the Genophage inside the Krogan that is killing the babies as they grow in the womb.

As for Instincts...

Humans used to be brutal Cavemen that were overly aggresseive and warred against eachother to get what they wanted.

Krogan, when they were thrust into space, are just like humans when they were cavemen. However, the Salarians didn't try and teach them anything new that they didn't already understand. Instead they pointed to the Rachnii and told them to kill the Rachnii which they did. Thus after the Rachnii died and the Krogan were unable to cope with Spacefareing and thus resorted to their instincts because the Council Races used them and than abandoned them without ever guiding them beyond war.

The first Genophage was needed because the Council Races failed the Krogan. The second Genophage is because the Council Races failed the Krogan again and let fear dictate their actions instead of taking responsibility and guideing the Krogan like they should have done in the first place.

Both Genophages are failures since they don't effect the chance of pregnancy or the odds of a child beginning to develop in the womb.

They instead kill the babies from the inside. Thus every dead baby Krogan that comes out as a stillborn is an innocent life that the Salarians brutually murdered because they didn't take responsibility, didn't try and fix the Genophage to what it was meant to do, and they're so arrogant that they refuse to acknowledge any Krogan Scientest. Okeer is a shinning example of a Krogan Genius that made even Mordin look stupid.

Okeer is the exception, not the rule. And do you really believe you can teach a krogan, or caveman as you compare them to, to live peacefully? lol keep on dreaming dude. 

It would be like teaching a crocodile not to bite you.
Contrary to what you believe, you cant teach instincts away. You have to let them evolve enough to realize their brute ways arent needed.
That takes awhile and while we wait for that to happen the krogan stay calm with their low birthrates.

Even wrex states that if the krogan would stop fighting, killing, bombing and just calm the hell down and breed for a few years the population would go up

[red pies]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Curiong the genophage immediately would be disastrous. Never curing it at all would be tragic. I'd say find a way to slowly reverse its effects, but never bring fertility levels all the way back up to pre-rebellion levels.

thats the plan because of the genophage the krogan have learned to care for their kids rather than immediately sending them to battle and which means they are slowly evolving into a more peaceful race and when that happens i have the cure

[Lapis Lazuli]

...Interesting though as a testament to the Krogan, they are peaceful to Salarians and Turians on a personal level. They even let Salarians and Turians walk around on Tuchanka unmolested (except for the occasional "...just give me a reason..."

[Thermetro]

As I see it, a possible solution would only work if Wrex was in power of the Urdnot guild.

To find a cure to the genophage, and distribute it to higher members of the Urdnot guild, would allow other clans to join them in search of a cure, allowing them trials to help rebuild their worlds, build their union and truly become part of the Urdnot guild, they will prove themselves worthy for the cure, allowing their guild to grow in power and unite all krogan.

A major part of the Krogan's psyche of hate and need to fight to settle problems, arguements and issues comes from their traditions and rituals. Urdnot Wrex bypasses most of these old traditions, in favour of uniting all clans, and not compete with the others unless it is self-defence

.

Ofcourse there are a few complications with it, due to the fact that even if all this could happen in time to unite all Krogan, even after the time of the Reapers, what would stop them going back. Wrex is one of few individuals who believes that the old krogan ways will only disgress their civilisation back to savagry and another impending genophage, IF the task force of Slarians, such as Mordin could create a new stand, because as he has explained that the modification of the original disease to create the new one, was a scientific marvel, to manage to do it again before a Krogan army invade after the Reaper onslaught, would be impossible.

Ofcourse I have not considered the fact that Grunt, a perfect krogan, could also be key in making the krogan see, that even though he is not born naturally, he is one of the greatest krogan to ever succeed in the trials to prove himself, surviving, (and possibly killing) a thresher maw, Wrex and Grunt share a kind of link in that way that Wrex accepts him.

But that is my 2 cents, if Wrex was killed then chances are, a cure would only cause the brother of Wrex to go on a power trip, manipulating other clans to his will to dominate them all. So in most cases, by leaving the genophage un cured is still evil, but it would be needed to stop a past evil returning other wise.

[Capeo]

The Krogan are lucky to still even exist as far as I'm concerned. They started a war of aggression and they paid the price. Given the normal Turian response to aggression the Krogan are lucky they weren't completely wiped out during the rebellions. At least the genophage allows them to live. If they didn't live like animals and favor aggression to solve every conflict their numbers would be slowly climbing right now.



And I saved the data, but only as a bargaining tool. Also, I killed Wrex in my canon storyline so he really doesn't factor into it.

[AkiKishi]

The Krogan are a war like people and unlike the Rachni don't appear to have learned any lessons.

Unless ME3 reveals some unexplored space with something worthy to fight curing the genophage may not be the best of ideas. However if the Krogan adapt to it or cure it themselves they may well be even more in the mood for payback.



If they lay egg clutches like turtles that's some serious population explosion.

[Capeo]

^^^Okeer mentions 1000 in a clutch. That's a lot more than any turtle.